How many crews/trainsets are required to run the long haul routes?

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bergw

bergw

Joined
Jul 11, 2024
Messages
4
Location
pennsylvania
I'm sure this has been discussed before but i was having trouble finding the answer. If you can point me to it i will happily read it.

Last year on silver star I was speaking with the SCA and she said that she was based out of MIA and that they took the trip NYC, overnight there, then head back to MIA. She then said that she has 3 or 4 days off (i think it was 3 but i do not remember clearly) before she has to do it again. So i got to thinking how many crews is this for a week or month. 3? 4? more? I was figuring you have one crew on the southbound, one on the north bound. So 2 a day, but if they have off 3 days in a row, you'd need 8? total?

I guess i'm not accounting for crew changes en route? I guess i really just don't know how this works but it seems like it's far more man power than i'd ever accounted for. I'd imagine jobs like engineer have strict requirements for how many hours in a row they can work, so it may be different for each type of job on the route.

This would be even worse on the longer routes, things like the zephyr or the empire builder would need twice as many? maybe three times as many? Or is my thinking totally off base?

This extends to trainsets too. i recognize trainsets probably don't need time off every week, but you figure the star would require at least 2, the empire builder at least 4. Because of the zephyrs not whole day time table maybe they need 7?
 
bergw said:
I'm sure this has been discussed before but i was having trouble finding the answer. If you can point me to it i will happily read it.

Last year on silver star I was speaking with the SCA and she said that she was based out of MIA and that they took the trip NYC, overnight there, then head back to MIA. She then said that she has 3 or 4 days off (i think it was 3 but i do not remember clearly) before she has to do it again. So i got to thinking how many crews is this for a week or month. 3? 4? more? I was figuring you have one crew on the southbound, one on the north bound. So 2 a day, but if they have off 3 days in a row, you'd need 8? total?

I guess i'm not accounting for crew changes en route? I guess i really just don't know how this works but it seems like it's far more man power than i'd ever accounted for. I'd imagine jobs like engineer have strict requirements for how many hours in a row they can work, so it may be different for each type of job on the route.

This would be even worse on the longer routes, things like the zephyr or the empire builder would need twice as many? maybe three times as many? Or is my thinking totally off base?

This extends to trainsets too. i recognize trainsets probably don't need time off every week, but you figure the star would require at least 2, the empire builder at least 4. Because of the zephyrs not whole day time table maybe they need 7?
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The Star requires 4 train sets. Empire Builder requires IIRC 5 sets.

OBS (On Board Service) crews do not change en route barring one possible exception of the Texas Eagle at San Antonio,. so in general the number of OBS crew required would be number of trainsets plus the number of days rest required between duties I suppose, but actually it will be more to cover contingencies, vacations and such.

Train Operating Crew like Engineers and Conductors is more complicated. You have to know the crew districts that serve a route and how many of each type serve a train in each crew district.
 
I never really considered the scale of the equipment and manpower needs of a route. I guess that's a large challenge in adding new routes or moving from 3 days a week to every day. It's not just one more trainset or one more crew, it could be half a dozen. I guess that also would mean the zephyr requires the most equipment/crews because of its frequency and duration. (obviously something like the North east regional would require the most trains because of how many run a day)

This is also probably why i rarely see the same SCA on routes i've taken more than once.

Thanks for the info. I was going to try to work it out on paper but it quickly got to be more than i was bargaining for.

ooh hey found it

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/line-numbers-consist-listings.32610/
 
This is a few years old, but probably pretty close. I'm sure if corrections are in order, someone will spot them.
#1-2 - 3
#3-4 - 5
#5-6 - 6
#7-8 - 6
#11-14 - 4
#19-20 - 4
#21-22 - 3
#27-28 - 6
#29-30 - 3
#48-49 - 3
#50-51 - 2
#52-53 - 2
#58-59 - 3
#79-80 - 2
#89-90 - 2
#91-92 -4
#97-98 -4
#421-422 - 3
#448-449 - 3

This is just the LD not the corridors....
bergw said:
I never really considered the scale of the equipment and manpower needs of a route. I guess that's a large challenge in adding new routes or moving from 3 days a week to every day. It's not just one more trainset or one more crew, it could be half a dozen. I guess that also would mean the zephyr requires the most equipment/crews because of its frequency and duration. (obviously something like the North east regional would require the most trains because of how many run a day)

This is also probably why i rarely see the same SCA on routes i've taken more than once.

Thanks for the info. I was going to try to work it out on paper but it quickly got to be more than i was bargaining for.

ooh hey found it

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/line-numbers-consist-listings.32610/
Click to expand...
All the heritage bags and diners have been replaced, and there are some viewliner bag-dorms and VL-2 sleepers now in the mix, I'm sure there are some minor moves as to coaches as well.
 
bergw said:
I never really considered the scale of the equipment and manpower needs of a route. I guess that's a large challenge in adding new routes or moving from 3 days a week to every day. It's not just one more trainset or one more crew, it could be half a dozen. I guess that also would mean the zephyr requires the most equipment/crews because of its frequency and duration. (obviously something like the North east regional would require the most trains because of how many run a day)

This is also probably why i rarely see the same SCA on routes i've taken more than once.

Thanks for the info. I was going to try to work it out on paper but it quickly got to be more than i was bargaining for.
Click to expand...

The simplistic calculation is: Cycle Time (basically, trace one equipment set through a round trip, and its next departure from the same origin terminal…assuming you know the turn times) and divide by the inverse of the frequency. That tells you how many equipment sets you need.

Using the Coast Starlight as an example, if the train leaves LA on Monday, it gets to Seattle on Tuesday night, leaves Seattle Wednesday, gets to LA Thursday, and leaves LA again on Friday. Therefore, its cycle time is 4 days (i.e. add 4 days to Monday and you get Friday). The frequency is 1x per day (so the “inverse” is 1 day), so 4 divided by 1 is 4.

Daily LD trains need 1 trainset per day of cycle time. Those running a more limited schedule (Sunset Limited or Cardinal) will be somewhere around half that. The Cardinal gets slightly worse utilization because there are a couple of cases where it sits multiple days at either end.

A similar calculation would work for crew requirements, but it’s a lot harder for the casual observer to figure out what their rotations/down times are.

bergw said:
ooh hey found it

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/line-numbers-consist-listings.32610/
Click to expand...

That thread was good when it was up-to-date, but a lot has changed in the intervening decade-plus. The Empire Builder had a sixth set for a while because of horrible reliability, adding an extra day to its turnaround on the west coast. Plus, most trains have quite a bit less capacity now than they did back then. Also, as noted, the heritage cars are now either replaced with Viewliners or with nothing, depending on the route.
 
A
jis said:
The Star requires 4 train sets. Empire Builder requires IIRC 5 sets.

OBS (On Board Service) crews do not change en route barring one possible exception of the Texas Eagle at San Antonio,. so in general the number of OBS crew required would be number of trainsets plus the number of days rest required between duties I suppose, but actually it will be more to cover contingencies, vacations and such.

Train Operating Crew like Engineers and Conductors is more complicated. You have to know the crew districts that serve a route and how many of each type serve a train in each crew district.
Click to expand...
As @jis has pointed out above , there is a significant difference between operating crews (engineers, assistant engineers, conductors, and assistant conductors) who are all subject to hours of service regulations; and on board service crews (coach, sleeper, service [waiter], lead service attendants, chef, and food specialist, that are not…
 
Thank you folks. I really appreciate the information and the formulas.

This helps me make more sense of the operating cost numbers.This along with the staffing numbers i've read help with the bigger picture. Like with the zephyr i've read it requires 45 dedicated staff per one way trip. Makes more sense why they run so far in the red. Is it even possible for them to not operate at a loss with those sorts of operational staffing requirements.

based on the numbers @PVD added, each new LD route would require roughly 3.5 trainsets and then somewhere north of like a bajillion employees (or more than i expected anyway, but maybe not a bajillion)
 
The on board service and operating crews represent different challenges. With a few exceptions, OBS are on end to end, while operating personnel have time of service restrictions, as well as a need to be qualified on specific territories they are working. And there are a few areas that require 2 in the cab as opposed to one. They will change at pre determined points along the route.
 
Okay, here is how the Zephyr breaks down as near as I can figure it.

T&E (district count based on the crew districts map published by Trains Magazine a few years ago)
7 conductor districts x 2 conductors (conductor & AC) = 14
3 one engineer districts = 3
5 two engineer districts x 2 = 10
T&E = 27

OBS is variable, depending on consist and, to a lesser extent, passenger count. This count assumes a transdorm, two sleepers, diner, lounge, 2 coaches:
2 sleeper attendants
1 coach attendant
1 cafe LSA
1 diner LSA
2 diner waitstaff
OBS = 7

Three coaches would require another coach attendant. A single coach attendant can handle a max of two coaches.

Total on train staff=34

The 45 figure sounds like it is based on the time when trains were more generously staffed, one attendant per coach, more diner staff, and longer.

Note that another way to think of it is there are between 10 and 11 staff members required to operate the train and take care of passengers at any given point in time in the journey. They all to be paid for the 52:57 westbound and 52:14 eastbound journey.

Note also that the Zephyr is the longest duration train and has the most crew districts. The Builder, Chief, SW Chief and Sunset all have 6 conductor districts as opposed to the Zephyr's 7.
 
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Cal said:
Is the EB still running with 6 sets?

Crew districts can be seen here ( https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/trn-m0506_a.pdf) Not sure if anything has changed since it was released.
Click to expand...
No, it is back down to 5 with a same day turn at Seattle/Portland again.

Cal said:
Crew districts can be seen here ( https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/trn-m0506_a.pdf) Not sure if anything has changed since it was released.
Click to expand...
It is still good for the Builder and Lake Shore, and good for the SW Chief and Starlight at least as of a couple years ago.

One thing I see that changed is on the Cascades, no trains terminate or originate at Bellingham and haven't for many years.
 
bergw said:
This extends to trainsets too. i recognize trainsets probably don't need time off every week, but you figure the star would require at least 2, the empire builder at least 4. Because of the zephyrs not whole day time table maybe they need 7?
Click to expand...
So if the Sunset #2 is cancelled in San Antonio at 5 AM on a Tuesday morning, I assume the crew is put up in hotels in San Antonio and have almost 2 days off since #1 doesn't leave until early Thursday morning (2:45 AM). And do they get paid as though the train went all the way to NO and back? Just wondering.
 
Railspike said:
So if the Sunset #2 is cancelled in San Antonio at 5 AM on a Tuesday morning, I assume the crew is put up in hotels in San Antonio and have almost 2 days off since #1 doesn't leave until early Thursday morning (2:45 AM). And do they get paid as though the train went all the way to NO and back? Just wondering.
Click to expand...
They get a per diem and hotel paid for, but are not Paid the Hourly Rate they receive while on Trains.

I've heard mention of a layover stipend, but not positive that's correct.

Any Amtrak Employees care to comment??
 
Having ridden the Crescent a couple times now, and the LSL & CONO recently; I have a few questions and this seems a good thread to post them in.

1. For LD trains, who is the “typical” rider? For coach & sleeper? Surely Amtrak knows who they are. From my very limited experience it looks like there are about 4 types of riders. Younger folks traveling for the experience/adventure of it on a budget. Older folks (me) wanting to see the country on a budget - likely retired. Families that want to travel together, where maybe the travel is half the vacay.
And the the folks with a bit more money who fall in the above, but are willing to pay for more “comfort”.
I suppose there is a fifth group just getting from point A to point B and sees the train as more upscale than a bus.

2. What do you see as efforts by Amtrak to increase ridership? In my world, I see nothing. We were at our local city visitor’s bureau (small town Georgia) a few days ago, naturally travel was the main topic of conversation. We mentioned having just returned from New Orleans by train - and both of the ladies expressed amazement. You can do that? I never thought of train! Where do you go to catch it? And these are the typical reactions we get whenever we mention the train.

3. Have any of you seen or heard of Amtrak shaking up their cast in concrete schedules? Using the Crescent and Atlanta as an example, we have two trains a day come thru, 9:30 AM headed south and 11:00 PM headed north. Our options are like my wife’s supper table, take it… or leave it!

Without adding a second train to the schedule, if the trains left at staggered times, say a 6 hour earlier start every other day, it would allow passengers some flexibility as to when they could leave or arrive at their destination. Would this increase ridership? It might, or it simply might alter where the ridership got on at.

I expect that last item could apply to many if not most of the LD routes. We’ll be on the CZ this fall. I would love to make a stop in SLC, but not when it means getting off (and back on) close to midnight. I know that travel cannot be all convenient, but I also know that it’s a competitive business with lots of options for the traveler.

Just wondering aloud today 😊
 
Cal H said:
1. For LD trains, who is the “typical” rider? For coach & sleeper? Surely Amtrak knows who they are. From my very limited experience it looks like there are about 4 types of riders. Younger folks traveling for the experience/adventure of it on a budget. Older folks (me) wanting to see the country on a budget - likely retired. Families that want to travel together, where maybe the travel is half the vacay.
And the the folks with a bit more money who fall in the above, but are willing to pay for more “comfort”.
I suppose there is a fifth group just getting from point A to point B and sees the train as more upscale than a bus.
Click to expand...
I'm in the camp of younger folks traveling for the experience/adventure, though I'm splurging on the sleepers with the goal of trying out every LD route. I like to think I'm part of a growing group of young people that grew up in a very car-centric plugged-in environment, and trains offer a change of pace and a different experience.

Cal H said:
We mentioned having just returned from New Orleans by train - and both of the ladies expressed amazement. You can do that? I never thought of train! Where do you go to catch it? And these are the typical reactions we get whenever we mention the train.
Click to expand...
I do think most of the public just isn't aware or consider Amtrak as a viable travel option, especially with LD routes (due to travel time). A lot of the perception I hear from my friends is that the equipment must be super rickety. The new bilevel LD equipment really can't come soon enough!

This is also turning into me just chatting about how much I love the trains ☺️
 
turtlypo said:
I'm in the camp of younger folks traveling for the experience/adventure, though I'm splurging on the sleepers with the goal of trying out every LD route. I like to think I'm part of a growing group of young people that grew up in a very car-centric plugged-in environment, and trains offer a change of pace and a different experience.


I do think most of the public just isn't aware or consider Amtrak as a viable travel option, especially with LD routes (due to travel time). A lot of the perception I hear from my friends is that the equipment must be super rickety. The new bilevel LD equipment really can't come soon enough!

This is also turning into me just chatting about how much I love the trains ☺️
Click to expand...
You and your peers are exactly the target audience that Amtrak should be trying to reach. When everything works as advertised, a long-distance train trip can be a unique experience unlike any other. Unfortunately, the frequent breakdowns, late arrivals and outright cancellations only serve to re-enforce the belief that Amtrak long-distance trains are unreliable and only fit for diehard train buffs and those who are gluttons for punishment while traveling.
 
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Having a different schedule on certain days runs into substantial interoperability issues with freight meets, issues with staff schedules, and sometimes causes problems getting equipment ready to go back out.
 
thefirewarde said:
Having a different schedule on certain days runs into substantial interoperability issues with freight meets, issues with staff schedules, and sometimes causes problems getting equipment ready to go back out.
Click to expand...
Also with the crazy way in which trackage charges are handled in this country, it is possible that even if a slot is used only three days a week the host will consider it to be an additional slot and figure out a way of charging more than if the train operated in the same slot every day of the week.
 
Cal H said:
Without adding a second train to the schedule, if the trains left at staggered times, say a 6 hour earlier start every other day, it would allow passengers some flexibility as to when they could leave or arrive at their destination. Would this increase ridership? It might, or it simply might alter where the ridership got on at.
Click to expand...
I think it would decrease ridership due to the chaotic schedule, as well as the other practical considerations noted above.

However, if the original train is kept on a regular daily schedule, there may be some merit to adding a second train two or three times a week as an interim measure while working toward taking it daily.
 
railbuck said:
I think it would decrease ridership due to the chaotic schedule, as well as the other practical considerations noted above.

However, if the original train is kept on a regular daily schedule, there may be some merit to adding a second train two or three times a week as an interim measure while working toward taking it daily.
Click to expand...
That's why the original UP and Santa Fe streamliners could be successful. They were on less than daily "sailings" -- but were backed up by daily trains on the same routes.
 

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