Lake Shore Limited discussion 2023 Q4 - 2024

Eternityroad said:

What's going on? I thought buses were used only in event of breakdown. When I buy a train ticket I want to ride a train the entire jouney, barring emergencies. and not be bustituted. If lack of enough cars is an issue then add more cars. If the routing is a problem alter the route. If i have missed something here let me know. I can do an about-face.

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With the Boston - Albany service on 448 and 449, it seems to be an annual occurrence for CSX to do some major maintenance project over a month or so each year. During those projects, 448 and 449 do not operate and passengers are bustituted. Usually the dates are known in advance and Amtrak posts these as service changes on its website. However, as I recall, sometimes the projects (and the resultant bustitutions) may be extended on short notice. So you may buy a ticket for say, May 20, thinking that the bustitution will be over by then based on the Amtrak announcement only to find that it is not.

It's not Amtrak's line, if Mass or CSX has something scheduled, there is not always a window for Amtrak.

Eternityroad said:

What's going on? I thought buses were used only in event of breakdown. When I buy a train ticket I want to ride a train the entire jouney, barring emergencies. and not be bustituted. If lack of enough cars is an issue then add more cars. If the routing is a problem alter the route. If i have missed something here let me know. I can do an about-face.

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CSX does a maintenance blitz on the line every year and 448/449 are cancelled and bustituted on most or all days for a few weeks while that's going on. I am assuming that's the reason for this one.

Amtrak doesn't have a lot of choice when the host imposes a huge maintenance windows that don't allow a slot for Amtrak during the blitz.

Thanks for clearunf that up. I like the LSL especially out of New York City.

I have taken the Lake out of NYC many times, as recently as last month. I've only taken the Boston section once, but it almost doesn't count since I was coming from a meeting in Lake Placid and picked it up in Albany. Left my car there and picked it up on the rebound. Roomette available at a good price, no problem with the longer walk to the diner (back then my walking was much better
) or the horn.

Eternityroad said:

What's going on? I thought buses were used only in event of breakdown. When I buy a train ticket I want to ride a train the entire jouney, barring emergencies. and not be bustituted

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When the closure is planned in advance, perhaps Amtrak should offer thr affected passengers the option of leaving Boston and Springfield earlier, and connecting in New York City to Train 49?

At no additional cost…

caravanman said:

Sad to receive a new emailed ticket from Amtrak altering my September train ride from Boston to Chicago to a bus from Boston, and train from Albany.

Same thing in reverse 3 weeks later...

I wonder what the catering is like on the new bus segments?

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Ed, if you are in coach you will need to bring your own food. If you were in a sleeper, they would provide a boxed meal, but no guarantees about the quality. Stops at stations will be approximately the same duration as if you were on a train, i.e. not long enough to get food. Bustitutions are run by conductors, who keep time just as if they were managing the train.

They may give you a rest stop at a mini-mart where you can buy a packaged snack and use a restroom, but not sure even about that. I would buy a decent sandwich and bottled beverage before boarding the bus. And the scenery should be different, but probably decent at least in western Massachusetts.

oregon pioneer said:

Ed, if you are in coach you will need to bring your own food. If you were in a sleeper, they would provide a boxed meal, but no guarantees about the quality. Stops at stations will be approximately the same duration as if you were on a train, i.e. not long enough to get food. Bustitutions ar run by conductors, who keep tome just as if they were managing the train.

They may give you a rest stop at a mini-mart where you can buy a packaged snack and use a restroom, but not sure even about that. I would buy a decent sandwich and bottled beverage before boarding the bus. And the scenery should be different, but probably decent at least in western Massachusetts.

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Cheers Jennifer, I am fine about managing food, etc. I am in coach, so would bring food and drink in any case. My mention of the catering options was just a tongue in cheek jibe at Amtrak.

I understand these bus events happen, but I do feel slightly aggrieved that no information, apology or explanation was offered, nor option to cancel, just a new ticket appearing unexpectedly in my inbox. These matters could be handled in a more customer friendly way. (Gosh, it sounds like I am turning into a prima donna or cranky old man in my old age...)

caravanman said:

Cheers Jennifer, I am fine about managing food, etc. I am in coach, so would bring food and drink in any case. My mention of the catering options was just a tongue in cheek jibe at Amtrak.

I understand these bus events happen, but I do feel slightly aggrieved that no information, apology or explanation was offered, nor option to cancel, just a new ticket appearing unexpectedly in my inbox. These matters could be handled in a more customer friendly way. (Gosh, it sounds like I am turning into a prima donna or cranky old man in my old age...)

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With a Flex fare, which now are only modestly more expensive than Value fares, you can cancel anytime before departure for a full refund. Officially, a Value fare has a 25% cancellation penalty, but I think an agent would likely waive it if explained it was due to a bustitution.

Just sending new tickets for changed itineraries seems pretty standard across the travel industry. Airlines do the same thing, including drastically changing connections. If you don't like what a carrier did, you contact them and try to get something that suits you better. Today's travel industry does not do a lot of hand holding anywhere.

Bustitutions are a lot better than cancellation without alternative transportation, which Amtrak seems to be doing a lot of lately. Not so very long ago that was pretty rare.

oregon pioneer said:

Ed, if you are in coach you will need to bring your own food. If you were in a sleeper, they would provide a boxed meal, but no guarantees about the quality. Stops at stations will be approximately the same duration as if you were on a train, i.e. not long enough to get food. Bustitutions ar run by conductors, who keep tome just as if they were managing the train.

They may give you a rest stop at a mini-mart where you can buy a packaged snack and use a restroom, but not sure even about that. I would buy a decent sandwich and bottled beverage before boarding the bus. And the scenery should be different, but probably decent at least in western Massachusetts.

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You can get a decent sandwich at Susan's Deli, of Course, which is located on Essex St, right around the corner from South Station.


Here's their corned beef on pumpernickel. Not quite up to NYC deli standards, but good, nevertheless. The pretzels and soda came from the Metropolitan Lounge at South Station.

Even with the dragon, lock your bags. Run a bicycle lock through all of them. The dragon will notice someone carrying two or three gags chained together.

oregon pioneer said:

Ed, if you are in coach you will need to bring your own food. If you were in a sleeper, they would provide a boxed meal, but no guarantees about the quality. Stops at stations will be approximately the same duration as if you were on a train, i.e. not long enough to get food. Bustitutions ar run by conductors, who keep tome just as if they were managing the train.

They may give you a rest stop at a mini-mart where you can buy a packaged snack and use a restroom, but not sure even about that. I would buy a decent sandwich and bottled beverage before boarding the bus. And the scenery should be different, but probably decent at least in western Massachusetts.

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My bus from Boston to Albany June of last year made no stops; stayed on I-90 the whole way. Never occurred to me to wonder what happened to people who were ticketed to/from intermediate points.

oregon pioneer said:

If you were in a sleeper, they would provide a boxed meal, but no guarantees about the quality.

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I wondered about that, as sleeper passengers on 448 are supposed to get dinner and 449 lunch between Albany and Boston, from the cafe car.

BlackDiamond said:

I wondered about that, as sleeper passengers on 448 are supposed to get dinner and 449 lunch between Albany and Boston, from the cafe car.

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Box lunches were certainly not provided to us as sleeper passengers on the planned 2019 bustitution. Passengers received only some candy and a bag of peanuts, maybe a small bag of chips also. On the bus there was no distinction made between the service provided to sleeping car passengers and coach passengers. It is a great equalizer.

I broke into my emergency supply of M&Ms on the trip and survived quite well.

Potential passengers on 448 and 449 should be advised that service on those trains (if they are trains at all) is consistently inconsistent. Just because they did something one way one year is no guarantee they will do that the next occurrence. Carry an ample supply of your own food regardless of whether you are in coach or sleeper.

caravanman said:

It seems that the bus and train situation kicks in on Sept 3rd... So you are in luck to be traveling on 1st of September! I am on the bus/train from Boston on the 4th...

Thanks for the suggestions about alternative routes, I think I will probably stick with the Boston Bus connection, might be interesting to view an area of the country from the highway for a change...

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Thanks, made it by two days, I hope! Supposed to get on the Empire Builder on Monday the 2nd. We have a 5 hour window. I don't know if the bus would endanger that or not.

Trucker72 said:

Thanks, made it by two days, I hope! Supposed to get on the Empire Builder on Monday the 2nd. We have a 5 hour window. I don't know if the bus would endanger that or not.

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I would imagine the LSL from New York to Chicago will be on time when the bus substitution kicks in from Boston. Maybe even a more reliable timekeeping as there is no messing around or delay at Albany, attaching the Boston section?

I quite like boarding Amtrak trains at the starting point, one can often choose the seat that suits. Transferring from the bus at Albany to an already busy train is a lot less "seat friendly".

caravanman said:

I would imagine the LSL from New York to Chicago will be on time when the bus substitution kicks in from Boston. Maybe even a more reliable timekeeping as there is no messing around or delay at Albany, attaching the Boston section?

I quite like boarding Amtrak trains at the starting point, one can often choose the seat that suits. Transferring from the bus at Albany to an already busy train is a lot less "seat friendly".

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Normally, they attach the New York section to the back of the Boston section, since the New York section has a less powerful dual-mode engine for the Empire Connection tunnel into NYP and the Boston section has a regular long-distance engine. So they may still swap engines in ALB even when there is no Boston section. They also may need the engine from the 49 to haul that day's 48 down to NYP. I don't think there is a surplus of the dual-modes, so they may want to avoid sending one of them unnecessarily to Chicago and back every day.

So there is likely there will still be some messing around in Albany.

caravanman said:

I would imagine the LSL from New York to Chicago will be on time when the bus substitution kicks in from Boston. Maybe even a more reliable timekeeping as there is no messing around or delay at Albany, attaching the Boston section?

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But the loco exchange might even take longer

zephyr17 said:

With a Flex fare, which now are only modestly more expensive than Value fares, you can cancel anytime before departure for a full refund. Officially, a Value fare has a 25% cancellation penalty, but I think an agent would likely waive it if explained it was due to a bustitution.

Just sending new tickets for changed itineraries seems pretty standard across the travel industry. Airlines do the same thing, including drastically changing connections. If you don't like what a carrier did, you contact them and try to get something that suits you better. Today's travel industry does not do a lot of hand holding anywhere.

Bustitutions are a lot better than cancellation without alternative transportation, which Amtrak seems to be doing a lot of lately. Not so very long ago that was pretty rare.

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I have always just gone for the cheapest Value fares when in coach, but as you say, the small extra cost of Flex fares does make a lot of sense.

The vouchers I received for previously cancelled tickets don't work on the website, so a full refund would be much better!

(Yes, I know about phoning an agent, etc, etc...)

Bustitutions are indeed a lot better than cancellation, but a polite note explaining what was happening, together with the new altered ticket, might be of help to anyone not familiar with the Amtrak low standards of communication?

John Santos said:

Normally, they attach the New York section to the back of the Boston section, since the New York section has a less powerful dual-mode engine for the Empire Connection tunnel into NYP and the Boston section has a regular long-distance engine. So they may still swap engines in ALB even when there is no Boston section. They also may need the engine from the 49 to haul that day's 48 down to NYP. I don't think there is a surplus of the dual-modes, so they may want to avoid sending one of them unnecessarily to Chicago and back every day.

So there is likely there will still be some messing around in Albany.

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They have been sending 2 P-42 on the Boston section (and then back and forth to Chicago) That 4th track and longer platform seems to be a big help. I've watched them fuel the set as well, I'm not sure if that happens all the time, but I would figure it does.

snaebyllej said:

My bus from Boston to Albany June of last year made no stops; stayed on I-90 the whole way. Never occurred to me to wonder what happened to people who were ticketed to/from intermediate points.

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Often they have multiple buses, with one or more carrying the through passengers directly to Albany while a separate bus make different stops on the way depending on how many are booked for pickup from each stop.

John Santos said:

Normally, they attach the New York section to the back of the Boston section, since the New York section has a less powerful dual-mode engine for the Empire Connection tunnel into NYP and the Boston section has a regular long-distance engine. So they may still swap engines in ALB even when there is no Boston section. They also may need the engine from the 49 to haul that day's 48 down to NYP. I don't think there is a surplus of the dual-modes, so they may want to avoid sending one of them unnecessarily to Chicago and back every day.

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I don't think it is feasible for the ACDM that comes in on 49 arriving into ALB after 5pm to be used on 48 departing ALB around 2:45pm the same day . There are plenty of surplus ACDMs lying around, and worst case they just send a regular P42 down to New York if they are really short ACDMs.

John Santos said:

So there is likely there will still be some messing around in Albany.

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Depending on whether the Boston Section is deadheading up from NY or not, they either have to just change out the loco, if that section came with the train from NY, or replace the ACDM by the Boston Section +P42 from the yard in Albany. It is no more complicated than what is done when the Boston Section actually comes from Boston.

west point said:

But the loco exchange might even take longer

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Why?

PVD said:

They have been sending 2 P-42 on the Boston section (and then back and forth to Chicago) That 4th track and longer platform seems to be a big help. I've watched them fuel the set as well, I'm not sure if that happens all the time, but I would figure it does.

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Yup The P42s go to Boston and the NY Section gets an ACDM, and on rare occasions a P42, and on the way westward the P42 bring in the Boston Section and the NY Section is brought in by an ACDM and on rare occasions a single P42, which is detached in Albany. That is the general documented equipment plan for the LSL.

John Santos said:

So they may still swap engines in ALB even when there is no Boston section.

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I ride the Maple Leaf with some regularity and there is always an engine switch in Albany. That strongly suggests that they switch engines on all services west of Albany and they do not usually run the P32AC-DMs beyond Albany.

that extra track saved me a few weeks ago coming home from the coast the Boston section with its 2 P42s was pulled up, but had the red signal on the switch going East. There was a severe storm well east of us but they held the Lake in Albany so it wouldn't be stuck in limbo. So the NY section was stuck because the DM couldn't be attached. Finally, they made a decision to pull the Boston section up a bit and the DM was backed into us. Then the Boston section was backed up to the platform when we left. But they still had 2 tracks to handle other trains while all this was happening. One lucky woman was standing next to our diner, and someone asked her where she was going, "Springfield, they said to stay by your car" Lady, that's the name of the dining car, your train is up there waiting to leave. She was fortunate it was held at the red, and our crew got someone on the radio to open a door for her. On a normal day she would have been SOL.

I, too, have been notified by email of Amtrak’s decision to cancel my train ride from Boston to Albany on 7 October and replace that ride with a five hour bus trip. Months ago I paid $800.00 for a roomette on the Lake Shore Limited, all to myself, so that I might enjoy my first overnight train journey in blissful solitude, so that I might enjoy my first train meal served in my roomette by my smiling attendant, so that I might slide that lovely glass and steel partition home, block out the traveling mob, and turn my gaze outward, upward, into the broad, sunlit uplands of the mind, content in the passing picturesque panoply beyond the window before my eyes.

Instead, without warning or consent, for the paltry lump sum refund of $115.00, I find that I am to be forced onto what I gather will be a packed bus with 11 people sitting and breathing and coughing and sneezing and eating, all within 6 feet of my head, for five hours. Goodbye to solitude; goodbye to mobility; goodbye to served meals, goodbye to the insulation value that I paid for. Frankly, revolting.

As I gather that forced busing at Amtrak’s sole and arbitrary discretion is a common and accepted occurrence within its culture, I was hoping the other members here could advise me on the likelihood of receiving a full refund and cancellation of my LSL journey should I decide that travel on Amtrak trains—or buses or cars or donkey carts—is not for me.

whitepine said:

As I gather that forced busing at Amtrak’s sole and arbitrary discretion is a common and accepted occurrence within its culture, I was hoping the other members here could advise me on the likelihood of receiving a full refund and cancellation of my LSL journey should I decide that travel on Amtrak trains—or buses or cars or donkey carts—is not for me.

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You should be able to get a full refund for cancelling if you talk to an agent and (politely) explain your reason. Don't do it online via the website.

Bear in mind, though, that if your trip extends beyond Albany, the only practical way to retain your roomette on the rest of your journey would be to accept the bustitution and partial refund.

As to your dreams, Boston to Albany is not overnight, meal service (lunch) on the train would have been from the cafe car, with a selection that strongly resembles a 7-11 convienence store (packaged sandwiches, zapped burgers). Dinner service would be provided beyond Albany on the train if you are traveling that far and retain your reservation. It could be something vaguely resembling your fantasy, the dining car comes up on the New York section that's attached at Albany. Though YMMV on the "smiling" part, Amtrak onboard service is notoriously inconsistent, and the food on the Lake Shore diner is still the infamous reheated "Flex" dining service.

For what it's worth, cancelling and bustituting Boston-Albany wasn't at Amtrak's "sole and arbitrary discretion". It wasn't Amtrak's call. Amtrak is at the mercy of the host railroad, in this case CSX. If CSX closes the line because they want to do a maintenance blitz, which is the reason, Amtrak cannot run the train. Amtrak's only exercise of its "discretion" was to decide to charter buses rather than to "cancel without alternative transportation".

Finally, your vision of your trip is pretty much a fantasy, even if not bustituted. New York Central's New England States would probably have fulfilled it, but you missed it by several decades. Amtrak won't come close. I often compare traveling by Amtrak sleeper travel to a cross between Motel 6 and camping, with meals at Denny's. Based on your stated expectations, you should probably should just go for the refund and forget Amtrak for future sleeper travel. You will inevitably be expensively disappointed. I, for one, tolerate Amtrak's innumerable deficiencies because it is the only game in town for long distance sleeper rail travel. If there were a rail travel alternative, I would take it. I do not think I am alone in that here.

Take the money and run.