An SBB Panoramawagen experience

EC8 (SBB EuroCity)
August 28, 2023
Zurich HB 10.59 - Köln Hbf 17.05 (+25)

Let's discuss a train trip that went well, for the most part!

Two of my favorite people in the European rail scene, Mark Smith "The Man in Seat 61", and Simply Railway, both have had positive reviews of this specific train. EC8 is a daytime train run with SBB loco-hauled stock between Zurich and Hamburg, with EC9 being the daytime run in the other direction. DB runs an ICE train between the two cities on an every-other-hour basis, except for this train.

There are two things that make the SBB run unique from the ICE runs. First, it uses the slower classic lines in Germany, running along the Rhine River. Second, there is a special 1st Class SBB "Panoramawagen" with reserved seating. This car is unique in that the windows extend more or less to the top of the car, so it has a feeling similar to Amtrak's coach observation cars. I was originally going to start this particular trip in Amsterdam, but had found a fantastic deal on United and their "Premium Plus" premium economy ride to Zurich. So why not use the first full day in Europe riding the train? It's been on my bucket list since I've seen videos, and I'd likely be dead tired due to jet lag anyway.

So a few weeks prior to the trip I paid €67.90 for a ticket in first class, plus €5.90 for a seat reservation, for a total of €73.80. Seat 61's link above tells you how to book a seat in the correct car, which I followed and confirmed. DB spit an electronic ticket into my inbox minutes later, and I was all set for the trip.

As I don't know how many forum viewers have been to Zurich, let's set the scene a little bit. I'll talk about Zurich in this post and then more about the magnificent Zurich HB in the next post or two.

If you fly in to Switzerland, you'll most likely land at Flughafen Zurch (ZRH). It's super easy to get to Zurich HB from the airport, or really anywhere in Switzerland, as there's a four-track station underneath the parking structure. It's in the top 20 stations in Switzerland by passenger volume (Zurich HB is number one). Trains to Zurich HB run about every ten minutes or so; you'll probably have more problems navigating the ticket vending machines than finding a train.

Zurich is definitely worth a day or two to visit, but I wouldn't spend a week here unless you are on a stellar hotel or apartment deal and don't mind traveling everywhere else. There are things to do in Zurich, but it's a financial hub more than a tourist destination. This isn't Paris, London, Vienna, or Prague by any stretch of the imagination! Fortunately SBB runs an excellent train network so you can visit most anywhere in Switzerland within a couple of hours in each direction, though like everything else in Switzerland it might cost a bit of money to do so.

When I stay in Zurich, I have two places I favor. If I need to stay by the airport, the Holiday Inn Express Zurich Airport is really good. I've stayed twice and enjoy the property. It's usually kept up really well, it's quiet for being close to a main line and the airport, and getting to the airport or the center of town is fairly easy by public transport. The Rümlang train station is perhaps a ten-minute walk without having to cross a street, and two frequent S-bahn lines serve the route.

When I want to stay in Zurich proper or if I'm doing a rewards redemption, my usual is to head to the Crowne Plaza Zurich. Is it the best hotel in Zurich? Definitely not. But it's in a nice quiet part of town that's easy to reach by tram, the beds are comfortable, it has air conditioning and windows that can open, and it's often not a bad value for Switzerland. It does get busy though, especially if there's a Zurich FB game nearby as was happening when I arrived at the hotel on the 27th of August. It made dinner plans sketchy, but I recommend walking past Hardbrücke station and eating at Restaurant Viadukt if you can. It's really good.

One downside to the Crowne Plaza is that breakfast is 26 CHF, which is rather pricey even for Swiss standards. There's a Migros down the street for self-catering, and there are some good options around the tram stop at Albisreiderplatz, but on the morning of my train ride I tried Kafi Dihei about a 15-minute walk away. It's a cute little place!






I had their "fitness breakfast" with gluten-free bread, and added a little bacon:



While the "fitness breakfast" was good on its own, the bacon was fantastic! All in all I probably spent a little less than the breakfast at the Crowne Plaza, but it was so much better than a crowded buffet.

If you go to Kafi Dihei, note that they open at 8:30am and you'll want to be there close to when they open. EC8 leaves at 11am, and space at the cafe is a little tight, so if you're prompt at opening you should be able to leave your bags at the hotel while you eat. The tram ride to Zurich HB is maybe 12-15 minutes tops plus a little walking time.

After finishing breakfast, I stopped at the post office to send a couple postcards, went back to the hotel, used the facilities one last time (bathrooms in many European train stations are not free to use!), grabbed my bags, checked out of the hotel, and caught the next tram to Zurich HB. Mostly uneventful, but someone did step in front of the tram while it was passing a parked truck and we had to do an emergency brake. Fortunately there were no injuries.

Zurich HB is one of the grand railway stations of Europe, and considered by some to be the "heartbeat of Europe" as it sends a lot of trains in different directions. From here you can catch international daytime trains to Germany, France, Austria, the Netherlands, and Italy - with night trains to Amsterdam, Prague, Dresden, Vienna, Budapest, Ljubljana, and Zagreb. First built in 1847, the ground level was redone in the 1930s and a lot of the trainshed is from the 1870s. In recent years they built a shopping mall underneath the ground level, then excavated two platforms for through-trains, followed by another deeper level supporting two platforms for S-bahn local trains. It's a huge place.

The main focal point of the station is the large departure board:



Yes, those are all departures - mostly S-Bahn, all within forty minutes of the photo, and this is 10:30am on a Sunday.

The shopping mall underneath is rather confusing to navigate because it is below ground, the signage is often non-existent, and it's a weird shape. You can get to the platforms above and below you, but you might be on the far end of a platform.

There are three full-sized grocery stores in the train station. As we're in a German-speaking country, shops are closed on Sundays except for those in the train station. So if you need snacks or food, you're likely coming here.



Of course there are quite a few restaurants and cafes, I recommend Espressino if you can find it. The coffee's good, plus there is a bathroom free to use if you're a patron.



But you're really here for the trains, right? It's a good place to watch trains.

Here's a SBB Re 420 at the lead, followed by either a similar train or a 6-axle variant of some sort, pulling in Nightjet coaches from the previous night's trip.


This is an ÖBB Railjet, departing for Budapest shortly.

If you are in Zurich, you can't miss the station. You'll probably be here one way or another. Plan on a 60-minute visit for the trainspotting, the window shopping, and the distinct possibility that you'll get lost wandering around in it.

If you can't make it anytime soon, the Swiss broadcaster did a nice little video that captures a little of the experience:



EC8 eventually shows up on Gleis 17 a few minutes before departure, so we all start to gather as the train pulls in.

If you don’t mind mentioning it, I’m curious what your PE fare was to Zürich

xzperu42 said:

If you don’t mind mentioning it, I’m curious what your PE fare was to Zürich

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Last year I paid $1810 a couple of months out for Y+ SAN-DEN-LHR-ZRH on the outbound, GVA-IAD-SAN on the way back. All United metal except for SWISS from Heathrow to Zurich (which was regular economy). I could have paid an extra $100 for ZRH-GVA-IAD-SAN but the connection in Geneva seemed a bit too close for comfort, plus it was an 8am departure. Instead I just routed my vacation to depart from Geneva, which allowed me a few days in Lausanne.

Most everything else was $2500 Y+ around that time, and $1100-ish for back-of-the-bus Y, so it was relatively speaking a great deal. This trip was a late-ish decision as I was expecting to get on a project at work where time off would have been minimal for at least six months; you can definitely do better if you plan and pay in advance.

SBB schedules most of their trains to be in a major station on the top and bottom of the hour, so Zurich HB goes from pleasantly full to packed as EC8 pulls in. I also noticed that we don't have much time to board, perhaps less so than usual.

I was able to get this shot of the Panoramawagen before boarding:



Eventually I make my way to seat 62, my reserved seat... except there's a shopping bag in it, and someone sitting in seat 61. (No, it's not Mark Smith.) I ask if this is his bag, and he mentions that it is his seat and that I need to go to the next car.

I give him my best German "are you serious?" look, and then try to find another open seat. (This is the "going well, for the most part" bit of the story.)

I might be dealing with a jerk as he is occupying two seats, and there aren't any conductors to ask questions of - but I head for the opposite exit and note that it's marked as Car 262.


Mark mentioned this is always Car 263, and I remembered from Vagonweb that it's usually the middle car in a three-car first-class arrangement. I'm also aware that cards indicating car numbers are often not updated. So was there a late and/or bad-ordered car, an mis-numbering of coaches, or did SBB assemble and send the consist out of the yard incorrectly?

It's not a problem right now. The car is about half full as we depart Zurich HB on time, plus SBB doesn't really do reserved seats anywhere on their system. I figure if anyone will have an answer, it might be the Germans. But there is a chance that the person who was using two seats might actually be correct, in which case I will be a bit miffed from spending money on a seat reservation in a car that I was expecting to sit in.

I join an older man who is on his way to Basel to do a presentation for his employer there. He moved to a suburb southeast of Zurich and has lived there for a while, and his employer allows him to work remotely and come into the office when needed. He's a bit nervous about his presentation, so I exchange the usual chit-chat. As we move towards Basel he seems to be a little more relaxed.

SBB staff check our tickets and nothing was said about the seat reservations.

We pull into Basel SBB right on time, where we have twenty minutes, and I send off my acquaintance with a "good luck" on his presentation and the rough location of a bar in a park across the street from Basel SBB that was formerly a chapel, for after the meeting.

While we have time in Basel SBB I shoot a couple of photos of the car:




As I mentioned in a previous trip report - for loco-hauled coaches, SBB first-class is the best in the business. 2-1 configuration, comfortable seating, a small table with trash cans, power sockets at the seats (230V, though one plug might be Swiss), and lots of legroom. They aren't leather seats, but sometimes that can be a good thing in the summer. I would easily advocate Amtrak purchasing copies of these coaches for any service they wanted to run Business class with.

We depart Basel SBB on time, cross into Germany, and stop at Basel Badischer Bahnhof. This is a stop in Switzerland run by DB and apparently has customs checks built into the station because of that. This arrangement goes back to when the principality of Baden was its own fiefdom and they wanted a train line into Switzerland. Someone asks for my seat and they have someone traveling with them, so I move across the way to an open four-seat set.

A few minutes after departing Basel, I overhear what I would consider to be an irritated German speaking to a passenger. I look up and realize the irritated German is the lead conductor for our train, in DB attire. Two other conductors are by his side. I watch him for a couple of minutes and he's alternating between German and English, depending on who he's speaking to, and he's not happy about something. But he's working down the line, sometimes talking to people after the ticket check and sometimes not.

Our conductor gets to me and I hand over the ticket, saying nothing. He scans it, nods, and walks off.

Now I'm really confused.

One of the groups he talked to flags him down again to ask a question. He mentions something that I can't hear, then looks above their seat. He takes a minute, looks around him... then gives an overreacting eye-roll (where his head is rolling with his eyes), a frustrated shrug, then storms in my direction and past me. A minute later, he walks to the far end of the car and starts replacing the reservation tags above the seats. While replacing seat tickets he starts asking some people to move out of the car. It is when someone asks him why they're getting bumped, he replies in English that DB treats the Panoramawagen as Car 263 regardless of where it is in the consist.

So we might have a story: SBB sent the train off on its way out-of-order for whatever reason, and the Germans adhere to the Panoramawagen being Car 263. It makes sense because this is a unique car for any train running in Germany, and people willingly pay for optional seat reservations for this car. It may not amount to much, but it beats the hassle of sorting out who gets to sit in here.

About ten minutes later the person who was not-sitting in my seat comes to me, apologizes, and says he's been moved to the next car and that I can have my seat back. I say "thanks", wait a couple of minutes, then take my reserved seat.



Here's the irony: Seat 61, the one in the picture, is empty until Bonn - when a local who is completely not paying attention to what train she boarded claims it for a few minutes before realizing this isn't her train. I hope she didn't miss her stop. And to be honest, if our former seat occupier was kind and let me sit in what was the seat occupied by his bags, I would have gladly let him stay there unless the conductors moved him on. But I wasn't going to let the jerk sit there now, not after how I was treated.

Moral of the story: don't be a jerk, even if you might be correct.

Our seats on EC9 were clearly marked with origin and destination, as were most other seats in the 263 car that I could see. Due to a staff shortage "self-upgraders" were only evicted when the rightful passenger objected loudly. It was only on the Swiss portion of the trip that the tickets were checked and seating verified, which meant most of the trip was a free-for-all. Obviously DB has upped their game.

allanorn said:

As I mentioned in a previous trip report - for loco-hauled coaches, SBB first-class is the best in the business. 2-1 configuration, comfortable seating, a small table with trash cans, power sockets at the seats (230V, though one plug might be Swiss), and lots of legroom. They aren't leather seats, but sometimes that can be a good thing in the summer. I would easily advocate Amtrak purchasing copies of these coaches for any service they wanted to run Business class with.

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I imagine Stadler would be very pleased with this suggestion.

Between Mannheim and Karlsruhe, I decide I need lunch. I want to make it back to my seat prior to the scenic part of the ride, which starts after Mainz. I head towards what is now the back of the train for the restaurant car.

Believe it or not, this is my first experience of any dining car on a train in Europe. I've had plenty of meals in an Amtrak dining car prior to this, and I always enjoy a good meal in a dining car. Would this be any different?

It was this video by Traveling Turtle that made me want to try this particular dining car:



Go watch the rest of the video, and the rest of them - Jo's a great narrator - but my mouth hit the desk when I saw this part of the video. It makes Amtrak's dining car look like cafeteria seating. Apparently these dining cars might go away once the trains are updated to newer rolling stock, so I had interest in eating at one sooner rather than later.

I make myself at home and find a seat, and look at the menu.



I had looked at the menu prior to the trip to ensure I could eat something as I'm gluten-intolerant. So it was good to see the same menu on offer. I order a plant-based green curry and a glass of water to start.

It seems to take a while for the food to get to me, even when the dining car isn't busy at all. But it eventually gets to me around Karlsruhe.



It's decent. Plant-based protein can be a little flavorless and gritty, and whatever protein this is qualifies as such - but it's safe for me to eat. While I'm always for having vegetarian meals available, and I likely need to eat more plants in my diet, this dish with chicken probably would have better flavor.

SBB usually offers some sort of dessert deal, which was panna cotta and a coffee:



This was actually delicious and recommended. The coffee wasn't bad either.

It takes a while to flag the server for the bill, and I have to follow him to the kitchen where it turns out he was also the chef. That would also explain why the service felt slow! But I'm in a dining car on a slower train; what exactly was the rush? I guess I hadn't settled into vacation mode yet.

As Jo mentioned in the video, it does take what seems to be an oversized pile of francs to eat in the dining car... or anywhere in Switzerland, if I'm being honest. Our curry was 20 CHF, the dessert special was about 11 CHF, and the water was 5 CHF. I might have even grabbed a small bag of chips in case I was hungry on the rest of the run, which was 2.50 CHF? I forked over 44 CHF (close to $50 USD), which included a generous tip, after realizing that it was a one-man show today. Our server/chef/everything man was pleasantly surprised with the gratuity.

The dining car was worth it. A solid showing and one I'd recommend if you get the chance. If I wasn't gluten-intolerant I'd go for something else, but the only limiting factor here may be one's wallet.

jiml said:

Our seats on EC9 were clearly marked with origin and destination, as were most other seats in the 263 car that I could see. Due to a staff shortage "self-upgraders" were only evicted when the rightful passenger objected loudly. It was only on the Swiss portion of the trip that the tickets were checked and seating verified, which meant most of the trip was a free-for-all. Obviously DB has upped their game.

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Either that or our lead conductor on the DB side was particularly picky about this. YMMV and all that.

Our seat reservation tags were eventually updated by the lead conductor but I think SBB was in a rush to get the train out of the yard, and thus didn't have time before they sent it.

jiml said:

I imagine Stadler would be very pleased with this suggestion.

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Same. The new "California Cars" will be fine once they break in, but I could sit in those SBB seats for ten hours with minimal stretch breaks.

I rode EC8 last year and did not make a reservation in the Panorama car as it was midweek in early December and the DB website showed plenty of seats. Boarded the train in Köln and discovered the two other 1st class coaches were missing for some reason and the Panorama car was the only first class car. Needless to say it was packed, so I took up residence in the restaurant for the entire trip. The staff were fortunately understanding.

After lunch in the dining car, I was back in my seat before the stop at Mainz and the beginning of the scenic section of the trip.

It didn't disappoint. However, I was on the other side of the car as we paralleled the Rhine River.





The person in the seats across from me was gracious enough to catch a few shots from their window overlooking the Rhine, including this (not great) one of Lorelei Rock:



Even though we were along the river for a good hour or so, the ride was comfortable without a lot of lateral movement as you sometimes get on Amtrak long-distance routes. The line speed along the Rhine isn't high-speed by any definition, but we were often moving faster than Amtrak typically does.

We lose time now and again, but nothing what I would consider out of the ordinary for a trip of this distance. I wasn't on a schedule, so I didn't mind the extra time on the train. But eventually the river scenery turns into the towns and cities of the Ruhr, and we cross the Hohenzollern Bridge to stop at Köln Hbf about 25 minutes behind schedule.

More thoughts about the trip in my next post.

Overall I enjoyed the trip, and I consider it a modern classic route. It's definitely one to book if you are interested in European rail that isn't all high-speed all of the time. And considering that the particular routing only takes an additional hour over the high-speed ICE route (assuming DB is on time, which is always a dice roll), it is likely worth the tradeoff.

I can't blame anyone for taking ICE trains if schedule is a constraint, or if you get a great deal on the ticket. But definitely check out both routes on price, as an ICE itinerary may price out to be more expensive.

The Panoramawagen is a unique car in Europe, and it currently runs on three routes: this one from Hamburg-Zurich, another trip from Zurich to Graz, Austria, and a third run (sometimes) from Graz to Przemyśl near the Polish-Ukranian border. If you get a chance and have the cash it's worth an upgrade to first class and a seat reservation for a longer train ride; it does make the experience better as you're sitting in what is a reserved observation car. Anywhere else on the train is likely to be fine, just with smaller windows - and you can always take a meal in the dining car while it runs next to the Rhine.

allanorn said:

The Panoramawagen is a unique car in Europe, and it currently runs on three routes: this one from Hamburg-Zurich, another trip from Zurich to Graz, Austria, and a third run (sometimes) from Graz to Przemyśl near the Polish-Ukranian border.

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If you want to ride it, don't delay too long. Unconfirmed rumours have it that SBB is less than lukewarm about these cars. They are a small batch and have many non standard parts. They might need heavy rebuilds to keep them running, and SBB is unlikely to do this in view of classic loco hauled consists on their way out

cirdan said:

If you want to ride it, don't delay too long. Unconfirmed rumours have it that SBB is less than lukewarm about these cars. They are a small batch and have many non standard parts. They might need heavy rebuilds to keep them running, and SBB is unlikely to do this in view of classic loco hauled consists on their way out

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I can believe that. Much like the Austrians, loco-hauled cars may be on their way out and they will use full EMU sets.

allanorn said:

verall I enjoyed the trip, and I consider it a modern classic route. It's definitely one to book if you are interested in European rail that isn't all high-speed all of the time. And considering that the particular routing only takes an additional hour over the high-speed ICE route (assuming DB is on time, which is always a dice roll), it is likely worth the tradeoff.

I can't blame anyone for taking ICE trains if schedule is a constraint, or if you get a great deal on the ticket. But definitely check out both routes on price, as an ICE itinerary may price out to be more expensive.

The Panoramawagen is a unique car in Europe, and it currently runs on three routes: this one from Hamburg-Zurich, another trip from Zurich to Graz, Austria, and a third run (sometimes) from Graz to Przemyśl near the Polish-Ukranian border. If you get a chance and have the cash it's worth an upgrade to first class and a seat reservation for a longer train ride; it does make the experience better as you're sitting in what is a reserved observation car. Anywhere else on the train is likely to be fine, just with smaller windows - and you can always take a meal in the dining car while it runs next to the Rhine.

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I enjoyed riding the TEE Rheingold and local trains on the left bank line, but this was interesting on the right bank. Here is how it looked in 1971.

allanorn said:

After lunch in the dining car, I was back in my seat before the stop at Mainz and the beginning of the scenic section of the trip.

It didn't disappoint. However, I was on the other side of the car as we paralleled the Rhine River.

View attachment 37515
View attachment 37516
View attachment 37517

The person in the seats across from me was gracious enough to catch a few shots from their window overlooking the Rhine, including this (not great) one of Lorelei Rock:

View attachment 37518

Even though we were along the river for a good hour or so, the ride was comfortable without a lot of lateral movement as you sometimes get on Amtrak long-distance routes. The line speed along the Rhine isn't high-speed by any definition, but we were often moving faster than Amtrak typically does.

We lose time now and again, but nothing what I would consider out of the ordinary for a trip of this distance. I wasn't on a schedule, so I didn't mind the extra time on the train. But eventually the river scenery turns into the towns and cities of the Ruhr, and we cross the Hohenzollern Bridge to stop at Köln Hbf about 25 minutes behind schedule.

More thoughts about the trip in my next post.

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This is one of my absolute favorite routes in Germany. Whenever I get a chance I opt for it over the ICE route. I took off one day when I had a meeting in Amsterdam to go and ride along the Rhine.

This was my first train ride in Europe in 1990. I did not know about the panorama car but I remember walking through it to get to the dining car. I had a Eurail pass and I paid for seat reservations for all of the trains that I planned to ride on that trip. The only difficulties with seat reservations were for the Transalpine from Basel to Salzburg, and the trains in Italy.

I was fortunate to have a seat on the left side in a first-class coach with two and one seating. I had a single seat. The windows were large and immaculately clean. The train originated in Amsterdam. I had a road map of Germany with the train lines on it. As soon as we entered Germany I started to use the station names to track the route of the train. The only problem was that the train was traveling too fast for me to read the city names. I kept seeing Ausgang. After several stations named "Ausgang," I was ready to throw away my map. How could a city big enough to have several stations be on a map I had paid money for? The conductor passed by and I asked him to point out "Ausgang" on the map. He explained that Ausgang meant exit. So I will never forget the first German word I learned.

I ate lunch as we crossed the Rhein at Cologne and marveled at the Cathedral and the train station. The stations were unlike the ones in the United States that see one or two trains a day. Every station seemed to be massively busy.

Of course, the ride along the Rhein was amazing.

Many, probably most passengers in the train are taking it for actual transportation and I have found that within 2 seconds of the sun shining in the window… down come the window shades!

xzperu42 said:

Many, probably most passengers in the train are taking it for actual transportation and I have found that within 2 seconds of the sun shining in the window… down come the window shades!

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I noticed that too! Must be only North Americans who are obsessed with the scenery.

xzperu42 said:

Many, probably most passengers in the train are taking it for actual transportation and I have found that within 2 seconds of the sun shining in the window… down come the window shades!

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Also, no overhead luggage racks. Where do people store their luggage.

MARC Rider said:

Also, no overhead luggage racks. Where do people store their luggage.

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There are racks at the end of the car and storing luggage between the backs of opposing table seats is popular generally in Europe, although there are fewer of these in the panorama car than in other coaches.

MARC Rider said:

Also, no overhead luggage racks. Where do people store their luggage.

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jiml said:

There are racks at the end of the car and storing luggage between the backs of opposing table seats is popular generally in Europe, although there are fewer of these in the panorama car than in other coaches.

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I squeezed my main bag between the backs of opposing seats. It was a 33-liter soft bag though; wouldn't want to try it with a large bag or hardshell case. I kept my small backpack with me at the seat and took it to the dining car.

There are luggage racks at the ends of the car but they filled up quickly!