FRA's Corridor ID Program and possible new Corridors

jis said:

It is drawn that way so that people who want to do so can waste their time bellyaching about it (juuust kidding) Those maps are not terribly precise in many places. I'd just let it go and assume that when they say it follows the old route of the NCH we take it at its face value.

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You're probably right that it shouldn't be taken too seriously, but it just seems sloppy, and I thought that maybe I was missing something.

danasgoodstuff said:

You're probably right that it shouldn't be taken too seriously, but it just seems sloppy, and I thought that maybe I was missing something.

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I can show some 1970's maps made with Ziptone that are really terrible. And sometimes the vague alignments indicated were used to avoid showing something unpleasant. As mentioned above, the text saying that it is the former NCH route is more important.

The selection of the former Northern Pacific line for the Amtrak Empire Builder, the third longest route between Seattle and Spokane, was influenced by the former congressperson from Yakima, Catharine May, who was on the original Amtrak board. An Oregonian reporter was talking with Senator Magnuson (Campaign billboard: "He can do MORE for Washington.") when she called to get his okay. He asked if it could go one way via Stevens Pass and the other way via Stampede Pass and she said that she had been told that there were technical reasons not to do that. Officially, it went on the most populated route. However, not considered was the most populated route, the fourth longest route, via Vancouver and the Columbia Gorge.

The NCH then was set up quickly, not as part of the FRA Railpax study that established Amtrak. It had the support of powerful senators, and Magnuson who was chair of the Commerce Committee (IIR) got his train via Wenatchee and Stephens Pass. The shortest running time used to be on the Milwaukee Road, but it was headed toward extinction in that period.

The way that the FRA text in 1970-71 was worded, Chicago to Seattle, San Francisco, and Los Angeles could all have been run on a UP City of Everywhere. That suddenly occurred to Twin Cities interests and they banded together with the Washington and Montana senators to keep a Northern lines train, ending up with two routes.

One of the proposed routes is progressing....

https://www.ktbs.com/news/louisiana...l&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=user-share

A group in Wyoming is pushing for the extension of the Corridor ID Front Range proposal further north through Cheyenne WY

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/cheyenne-passenger-commission-holds-first-meeting/

What do you all think a proposed/tentative schedule would look like from FTW to MEI, assuming the current Crescent schedule is unchanged?

Here’s what I came up with. I just listed a few of the stops. The times would not be great for the DFW area if 19/20 don’t run with a new schedule, but could be improved with dwell time in Shreveport and Jackson.

Dp. FTW - 945p
DAL - 1045p
SHV - 300a to 400a
JAN - 830a to 930a
Ar. MEI - 1130a ~~~> connects with 20

Dp. MEI - 445p <~~~~ connects with 19
Ar. JAN - 645p to 745p
SHV - 1215a to 115a
DAL - 530a
Ar. FTW - 630a

What is the timeline for all of these $500,000 studies and what happens next? Are all the studies due back at the same time to the FRA or are they evaluated as they come in at staggered times.

There's a timeline - I imagine they're evaluated individually and against each other, depending on the funds available.

Then Step 2: show me the money.

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra...023 CORT Corridor ID Briefing_101123_PDFa.pdf

Ultimately keeping funds flowing to the two key programs: CRISI and Federal State are critical to keeping the momentum going once the five years of the IIJA advanced appropriations runs out. Most of the advanced appropriations money are going to go to, as they already have so far, projects that were already studied, matured, and developed before these programs were announced. Future funding is going to be needed to carry forward programs that arise from Corridor ID and the Long Distance study.

So I need a TL;DR. I have heard 5-7 years out for getting service to Asheville. So study and waiting for money for 2-3 years and deal with rail, signal, and station work for 4 years or so.

McLeansvilleAppFan said:

So I need a TL;DR. I have heard 5-7 years out for getting service to Asheville. So study and waiting for money for 2-3 years and deal with rail, signal, and station work for 4 years or so.

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We're all in that boat. The S-Line, NC/VA, for example can go for months or years without new information. There's a local organization in Western NC, https://captrail.org/ The studies do have a purpose, to spend wisely. The agencies are not treating this like an emergency bridge repair. Planet earth, or our economy, or the non-driving public, might disagree.

The S-Line has every approval, while that process is just starting for Asheville service. You could ask your state legislators or governor, or reps in DC.

JamesWhitcombRiley said:

We're all in that boat. The S-Line, NC/VA, for example can go for months or years without new information. There's a local organization in Western NC, https://captrail.org/ The studies do have a purpose, to spend wisely. The agencies are not treating this like an emergency bridge repair. Planet earth, or our economy, or the non-driving public, might disagree.

The S-Line has every approval, while that process is just starting for Asheville service. You could ask your state legislators or governor, or reps in DC.

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I have some contacts, that are pretty high up in NC state politics as staff. I asked about Asheville and Wilmington and his thought was that it was as much as a guarantee as could be given for something that requires gov't funding. He thinks some of this money may be used for more than just study for Asheville given the the amount of study that has been done that some of this money could be used for a bit more than study. Officially all rumor and I was a bit surprised he gave me the answer he gave me, not that is is legally binding, sadly. But it was a direct and no hem-hawing answer.

Report: Federal government never received Salt Lake City-Boise rail application ​

I am a whole new type of mad at the moment.

All I can say is wow. And I thought my state was incompetent!

lordsigma said:

All I can say is wow. And I thought my state was incompetent!

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Ha, I felt the same about Minnesota (my home state) until I read this!! Making MnDOT, of highway and EVs-over-all-else-loving fame look good is...sure something!

More info on the rejection:

Utah Senate president ‘disappointed’ in Idaho flub that derailed Salt Lake-Boise train study​

Sounds like the Salt Lake City - Vegas route was probably submitted correctly and was likely denied for another reason, UDOT will be meeting with the FRA soon to find out what went wrong.

IDOT should fund the entire initial study to get this project back on track, UDOT can help because they should have been keeping an eye on our northern neighbors. I hope that the FRA will let them hop back in line for future funding if the initial study gets funded another way.

Finally, I'm extremely pissed, this has honestly got me feeling more mad than I have been in ages. However I feel bad for the unnamed IDOT employee that screwed this up. I once made a mistake that cost an employer a couple hundred bucks and still feel guilty, I cant imagine what it's like to have a very public blunder cost such a significant funding opportunity. I blame IDOT as an entity and UDOT for not double checking their work, I feel bad for the individual who made the mistake.

I am in the Fox River Valley near Green Bay, Wisconsin. Many of you have recognized that the CID selection by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) to reestablish passenger rail service from Chicago through Northern Milwaukee to Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, Kaukauna and Green Bay was one of the first applications to be approved. This effort was lead by the Mayors of all those Fox River Valley Cities, and Neenah, Menasha and many other Municipal Leaders.
Our advocacy group - NEWRails (Northeast Wisconsin) has helped to make this routing known. We encourage others to relate their stories of passenger rail expansion and I look forward to reading your posts.

Larry Rueff

NewRails said:

I am in the Fox River Valley near Green Bay, Wisconsin. Many of you have recognized that the CID selection by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) to reestablish passenger rail service from Chicago through Northern Milwaukee to Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, Kaukauna and Green Bay was one of the first applications to be approved. This effort was lead by the Mayors of all those Fox River Valley Cities, and Neenah, Menasha and many other Municipal Leaders.
Our advocacy group - NEWRails (Northeast Wisconsin) has helped to make this routing known. We encourage others to relate their stories of passenger rail expansion and I look forward to reading your posts.

Larry Rueff

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Hi Larry -- wondering if you have any insight on any of these questions:

(1) Any strong indicators on the routing between Milwaukee and Fond du Lac? Existing likely routing would take it west from MIlwaukee on the CPKC to Duplainville and switch northward on the CN line. But I've also heard the possibility of restoring the gap between roughly West Bend and Eden so instead it would run thta way. I'm sure Canadian National would be happy to not have Amtrak on Duplainville-FDL. Personally I've heard both "Via West Bend is the only option, no way CN will allow Amtrak on that section" and "CN is the only option, no way will the money be spent to put all the track back" from people who don't *seem* to have any special insight. Do you have anything more solid on what direciton this would likely go?

(2) Speaking of Canadan National a number of years back I recall hearing them saying they were having capacity issues through the Valley, and if that is still the case I can't imagine they are thrilled the prospect of handling Amtrak as well. Any idea if recent or planned improvements through the Valley have eased that, or can we expect CN to pull no punches in trying to fight this?

(3) Any preliminary word on stations? Each stop slows things down a bit and planned travel times already lag driving of course, but I wonder if a De Pere and a Neenah/Menasha station would be worth cost and time penalties.

No worries if your answers are essentially "we wonder about those things too"...

moselman66 said:

Hi Larry -- wondering if you have any insight on any of these questions:

(1) Any strong indicators on the routing between Milwaukee and Fond du Lac? Existing likely routing would take it west from MIlwaukee on the CPKC to Duplainville and switch northward on the CN line. But I've also heard the possibility of restoring the gap between roughly West Bend and Eden so instead it would run thta way. I'm sure Canadian National would be happy to not have Amtrak on Duplainville-FDL. Personally I've heard both "Via West Bend is the only option, no way CN will allow Amtrak on that section" and "CN is the only option, no way will the money be spent to put all the track back" from people who don't *seem* to have any special insight. Do you have anything more solid on what direciton this would likely go?

(2) Speaking of Canadan National a number of years back I recall hearing them saying they were having capacity issues through the Valley, and if that is still the case I can't imagine they are thrilled the prospect of handling Amtrak as well. Any idea if recent or planned improvements through the Valley have eased that, or can we expect CN to pull no punches in trying to fight this?

(3) Any preliminary word on stations? Each stop slows things down a bit and planned travel times already lag driving of course, but I wonder if a De Pere and a Neenah/Menasha station would be worth cost and time penalties.

No worries if your answers are essentially "we wonder about those things too"...

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Your questions are timely and I'll try to answer them; what isn't being addressed by WisDOT is why it would delay taking on these and other issues until 2027...I can tell you who to write in the Department to ask these, other questions and to urge WisDOT to hire consultants to start CHI-MIL-FOX RIVER VALLEY-GRB planning NOW as they have done for highways projects.... And don't forget to mention that they have the $500,000 FRA CID grant, no cost to the State, to start that Phase 1 process NOW.
(1) You are right on track. The route to Duplainville is best. It's on existing trackage. Tearing up a recently named National Park administrated recreational trail to restore tracks into West Bend is not feasible, even if the huge cost would be supported by the State of Wisconsin.
Canadian National (CN) is involved with the routing NEWRails advocates. That operator hasn't presented any opposition in formal presentations that I have viewed. AMTRAK as a partner will need to assert its statutory preemption but before passenger rail service begins a memorandum of understanding (MOU) will of course need to solve that issue (see (2), below.

(2) CN's capacity issues have been recognized and a CRISI grant was awarded last September (Fox River Swing Bridge Improvement and Sustainability Project) to improve three freight lines and bridges to increase load carrying capacity to 286,000 pounds. Operator FOXY will pay the 20% non-federal match.

(3) Green Bay is already planning its station. DePere could trigger WisDOT's responsibility under its statutory "Station Program" for assistance but has not. Neenah/Menasha stations were not proposed by the "7 Mayors" (GB, Kaukauna, Appleton, Oshkosh and Fond du Lac are the other five that seek station planning).

Again intelligent questions that can and should be addressed NOW in CID planning by WisDOT.

NEWRails
Larry Rueff
[email protected]

Is it known when the next round of applications will open?

I am hoping to see a consortium of counties band together with Utah Rail Passengers Association for funding instead of letting the state(s) mess it up again.

The FRA has not released a public 2025 grants calendar yet.

However, according to their statements in this webinar on Aug 7, 2024, FRA intends to issue a Notice of Funding Opportunity (NOFO) for the next round of Corridor ID applications sometime during 2025. It's unclear if they meant CY 2025 or FY 2025.

Like the combative tone: 'Not study money': Scranton-NYC Amtrak project gets $9 million for construction work
"From the Electric City to the Big Apple," from an earlier story: On track: Scranton may finally see return of passenger rail line to NYC through Poconos