Bi-level Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement RFP discussion H2 2024

Johnny · Oct 14, 2024

Since Stadler makes mostly aluminum trains, does this fact make them less likely to win (since Amtrak is requesting a stainless steel trainset)?

Also, I wonder how likely it is that Hitachi or Kawasaki win this contract since they do, in fact, make quality vehicles but it is also true that Amtrak has never ordered any equipment from them.

Brian Battuello · Oct 15, 2024

Re my earlier comment about Kawasaki, if they would toss in a bar car with snacks, I'd happily ride in a transit car for trips under 200 miles if it was cheap, fast and frequent. Would be nice if they faced the seats forward, though, and the FRA would probably make them take out the standee straps.

I believe this used to be called an interurban...

Paniolo Man · Oct 18, 2024

Well I'm back on the Stadler hope train. They just won UTA's LRV replacement with a steel designed vehicle meaning they plan to have steel car capacity in the US. I know well they are bidding, but solid plans for their expanded factory will help their bid quite a bit.

thefirewarde · Oct 22, 2024

They're not part of the Siemens monoculture that's been growing and they haven't recently fumbled/helped fumble a major Amtrak contract (Viewliner 2 and Avelia come to mind as "maybe you should deliver someone else's trains as promised before we try you again" programs). That puts them in rarified company.

Johnny · Oct 24, 2024

Paniolo Man said:
Well I'm back on the Stadler hope train. They just won UTA's LRV replacement with a steel designed vehicle meaning they plan to have steel car capacity in the US. I know well they are bidding, but solid plans for their expanded factory will help their bid quite a bit.

Congratulations to Stadler! (And I know that their Caltrain EMU trains have received great reviews).

It turns out that Hitachi is building a new rail factory in Maryland--which is a relatively short drive to Amtrak's headquarters in Washington DC. Does this possibly make it more likely that Hitachi could win the Superliner replacement contract, since Amtrak executives could frequently visit the new factory and check out the manufacturing of the new coaches?

Steve4031 · Oct 24, 2024

Johnny said:
Congratulations to Stadler! (And I know that their Caltrain EMU trains have received great reviews).

It turns out that Hitachi is building a new rail factory in Maryland--which is a relatively short drive to Amtrak's headquarters in Washington DC. Does this possibly make it more likely that Hitachi could win the Superliner replacement contract, since Amtrak executives could frequently visit the new factory and check out the manufacturing of the new coaches?

I think it would take much more than being near headquarters. They would have to submit a bid to address the needs expressed in the original order.

That original order was a pie-in-the-sky request. Have there been any changes since there have not been any bids?

jis · Oct 24, 2024

Johnny said:
Congratulations to Stadler! (And I know that their Caltrain EMU trains have received great reviews).

It turns out that Hitachi is building a new rail factory in Maryland--which is a relatively short drive to Amtrak's headquarters in Washington DC. Does this possibly make it more likely that Hitachi could win the Superliner replacement contract, since Amtrak executives could frequently visit the new factory and check out the manufacturing of the new coaches?

Amtrak executives visiting a factory? Surely you jest. Or did you just forget to add a smiley?

Johnny · Oct 24, 2024

Jis,

Which two companies do you think are the most likely to win this contract?

jis · Oct 24, 2024

Johnny said:
Jis,

Which two companies do you think are the most likely to win this contract?

I tend not to speculate on such. I try to share concrete information (that I am not constrained from sharing due to confidentiality agreements) and at present there is none that I have.

Steve4031 · Oct 24, 2024

jis said:
I tend not to speculate on such. I try to share concrete information (that I am not constrained from sharing due to confidentiality agreements) and at present there is none that I have.

This is why I always read Jishnu's posts. I know I am getting the most accurate information possible.

jiml · Nov 2, 2024

This is an innocent question not intended to start anything political. Has the money for the new Amtrak LD equipment already been allocated and is not revocable? Obviously you folks have an election coming shortly and I have to wonder if a change of leadership could impact any order. Drawing a parallel with our impending election and potential change of government, VIA's funding (and certainly capital purchases) will likely be high on the chopping block of the potential winners. What is the situation south of the border?

jis · Nov 3, 2024

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Discussion and speculation about the remaining life of Superliners has been moved to the following thread:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/speculation-about-remaining-life-of-superliners.88137/

General discussion of possible better ways of handling equipment procurement has been moved to the following thread:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...ng-procurement-of-equipment-for-amtrak.88136/

Please continue those discussions in these new threads and reserve this thread for discussing only the details of and progress of the actual current bi-level RFP that is out.

This thread has now been unlocked.

Thanks for your understanding, cooperation and participation.

jis · Nov 3, 2024

jiml said:
This is an innocent question not intended to start anything political. Has the money for the new Amtrak LD equipment already been allocated and is not revocable? Obviously you folks have an election coming shortly and I have to wonder if a change of leadership could impact any order. Drawing a parallel with our impending election and potential change of government, VIA's funding (and certainly capital purchases) will likely be high on the chopping block of the potential winners. What is the situation south of the border?

Technically speaking the money has not been committed until the actual order is placed and contract signed with the vendor.

In principle Congress can claw back (rescind) almost any funds that have not been committed. So at least theoretically the bi-level order could be in jeopardy. But from what we are hearing, there is at present bi-partisan support for LD trains, so there is some comfort in that. But one never knows for sure what happens in the big horse trading. But for now, people in the know believe the bi-level order to be relatively safe.

Paniolo Man · Nov 4, 2024

jis said:
Technically speaking the money has not been committed until the actual order is placed and contract signed with the vendor.

In principle Congress can claw back (rescind) almost any funds that have not been committed. So at least theoretically the bi-level order could be in jeopardy. But from what we are hearing, there is at present bi-partisan support for LD trains, so there is some comfort in that. But one never knows for sure what happens in the big horse trading. But for now, people in the know believe the bi-level order to be relatively safe.

I heard a few times that bids were due in "Early November", do you know when specifically that might be?

Paniolo Man · Nov 6, 2024

For a lack of answer here I reached out and asked. The close date is 11/29. I wish they could get an award out by late January for obvious reasons, unfortunately that seems unlikely.

I fear this whole procurement is in peril.

jadebenn · Nov 11, 2024

We can only hope that the GOP Senators - being more supportive of the LD services than the NEC - stay the course. But I completely understand the pessimism.

Paniolo Man · Nov 11, 2024

jadebenn said:
We can only hope that the GOP Senators - being more supportive of the LD services than the NEC - stay the course. But I completely understand the pessimism.

I had a great discussion with Mike Christensen of URPA about it recently. The hope is that us in states with politically moderate congressional delegations can convince our federal delegates to preserve funding for LD projects based on the economic return in rural areas.

Support for LD is nonpartisan in rural areas where Amtrak is the only non-vehicular link to the outside world.

Awesometrainz · Nov 27, 2024

Okay so been thinking
Hitachi, Kawasaki, and standler are the three most likely contenders from what I can see though, I would not write off the Siemens and Alston but Siemens has a ton of other projects so a new bid for a new design does not seem like a big priority for them. And the Aclea liberties are still not in service yet .

Johnny · Nov 27, 2024

Awesometrainz said:
Okay so been thinking
Hitachi, Kawasaki, and standler are the three most likely contenders from what I can see though, I would not write off the Siemens and Alston but Siemens has a ton of other projects so a new bid for a new design does not seem like a big priority for them. And the Aclea liberties are still not in service yet .

You are implying that you think Hitachi is the most likely winner?

Paniolo Man · Nov 27, 2024

I personally think it'll come down to Alstom and Stadler, assuming an order is placed at all.

Alstom is the most prepared in terms of facilities and staff. Alstom has everything they need from the facilities to build the steel carshells to the staff who know how to build the interior. Alstom is probably the only bidder other than Siemens that can currently build a steel rail car from raw materials in the US. Siemens won't get it because of their backlog and Amtrak's desire to not monopilize their fleet.

Stadler as a company is able to build steel cars and would just need to construct a facility at their plant in SLC to do so. They are definitely an underdog, but that means they haven't had a chance to screw up a major order yet.

Paniolo Man · Nov 29, 2024

Bids are due today. Interested to see how long it takes to get an order on the books.

Mailliw · Nov 29, 2024

Alstom also has recent experience building sleeping cars in Mexico (though they aren't in service yet).

Paniolo Man · Dec 5, 2024

The proposal deadline was moved to later in December, so we have no records to produce. Additionally, names of bidders submitting proposals are protected under the Procurement Integrity Act and therefore FOIA Exemption 3.

The deadline was pushed back again to December 15 and they won't tell me who submitted bids.

Mailliw · Dec 5, 2024

Did they at least tell you if they received any bids?

Tom C · Dec 5, 2024

Trains magazine posted an article that stated that the carbuilders requested the two week extension. That would imply at least to me that one or more carbuilders have notified Amtrak of an intent to bid but need additional time to finalize things. Apparently there have had to be multiple revisions to the RFP through coordination between Amtrak and the interested parties during the process so I am sure they need sufficient time to finalize their bid packages. This is not a small procurement - and when finalized is likely going to be the largest rolling stock procurement in many years.

Bi-level Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement RFP discussion H2 2024

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