Pennsylvanian (the train(s) and route) discussion

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Yes, after NS extorted $200 million out of the Commonwealth. The reporter said the money will be used to "double track" the route. Of course, the entire route is already at least double tracked. It will add more sidings and interlockings however. Trackage at Pittsburgh "Union Station" also will need quite a bit of work.
With inflation, $200 million is worth what it used to be. :) I mean, they're doing a subway station upgrade (including ADA compliance) in New York for $60 million. That's just one subway station. OK, it's in New York, true, which has some of the highest construction costs in the country, if not the world, but still, $60 million for one station.
 
It would be nice if these improvements bought enough capacity to not just run two Amtrak trains west of Harrisburg but three to five trains. I hope in negotiating this, PennDOT/whoever didn't firmly or enforceably commit to adding only one train.

As I recall, when the Lincoln Service went up to five trains (including the Texas Eagle) in the mid-2000s, in exchange for various improvements to UP's line since then, IDOT (again, as I recall) committed that there would be only five trains. 🤔 If that is what happened, it's a lesson to NOT follow.

If the freight railroads are going to demand "gold-plated" line improvements, Amtrak/state DOTs should be demanding gold-plated frequency of service. At the very least, they should expressly reserve capacity to add more trains in the future than their present plans, with enforceable numbers (example: we intend to add one train by 202X, but reserve the right to add up to three trains by 202X). Then both sides know what they're getting in exchange for what they're giving, instead of one side getting valuable improvements in exchange for what Amtrak/the state(s) want right now, then demanding more improvements every time Amtrak or the state(s) want more service.
 
My first Amtrak trip through Pittsburgh was on the Three Rivers from Chicago to Harrisburg. A second train daily connecting PGH to HAR does make sense even if it does not go onward to Cleveland or Chicago.
When I arrived on the CapLtd and was connecting to the Pennsylvanian, I had to go down to the "pit" to get the bag that I had checked in CHI and had to wait for the one agent to finish selling tickets before I could get my bag to go back up to get on the Pennsylvanian. We were over an hour late into Harrisburg due to a tornado warning.
Amen to that!
 
Some kind of PGH-CLE service that does not involve middle of the night departures or arrivals would also be great while we are dreaming. Maybe the second west of Harrisburg train could be CLE-PGH-HAR to supplement the current PGH-HAR-PHL-NYP service?
That route is on Amtrak's ConnectsUS map, so it may happen someday before 2035.
 
Some kind of PGH-CLE service that does not involve middle of the night departures or arrivals would also be great while we are dreaming. Maybe the second west of Harrisburg train could be CLE-PGH-HAR to supplement the current PGH-HAR-PHL-NYP service?
That would indeed be great. Unfortunately the facilities available at CLE are conducive to turning a train there. Such a train would probably have to go all the way to Toledo to be viable given the current infrastructure availability.

Current timetables with a little tweaking would allow NYP - PHL - PGH - CLE - TOL in 15 hours and change, so a 6am-ish departure would manage to make it to TOL by 11pm-ish and vice versa, giving a possible Palmetto-like train with all of its journey during waking hours, almost. But of course the New Yorkers would possibly want a similar train via the Water Level Route too, causing NS to have conniptions.
 
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That would indeed be great. Unfortunately the facilities available at CLE are conducive to turning a train there. Such a train would probably have to go all the way to Toledo to be viable given the current infrastructure availability.

Current timetables with a little tweaking would allow NYP - PHL - PGH - CLE - TOL in 15 hours and change, so a 6am-ish departure would manage to make it to TOL by 11pm-ish and vice versa, giving a possible Palmetto-like train with all of its journey during waking hours, almost. But of course the New Yorkers would possibly want a similar train via the Water Level Route too, causing NS to have conniptions.
:If they would run a connection, or thru cars, (or even reroute the whole train), off the Maple Leaf at Buffalo, you could leave New York at 7:15 AM, and arrive Toledo around 9:30 PM, based on existing running times...maybe even extend it to Detroit, arrive there around 11:30 PM...
 
MODERATOR'S NOTE: A large number of posts about the Pittsburgh Amtrak Station have been moved to a new thread on that subject:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/pittsburgh-amtrak-station-past-present-and-future.83937/
Please post further Pittsburgh Station related posts on that thread and leave this thread for the discussion of the evolution of the cross-Pennsylvania Pennsylvanian-like service, or restoration of service beyond Pittsburgh from Philadelphia/Harrisburg.

Thank you for you understanding, cooperation and participation.
 
It's strange to me that boring some sort of tunnel under the Alleghenies to bypass the Horseshoe Curve doesn't seem to have ever been seriously studied. It'd provide a huge speedup to passenger service (the Keystone West corridor study estimated that building a passenger-only bypass in this region would cut trip times from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh by half an hour!) and I'd imagine it could be designed in such a way as to significantly benefit freight as well, e.g. by reducing the need for helper engines.

Obviously it wouldn't come cheap but I was hoping for more of these sorts of big-ticket, transformative projects out of the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, frankly.
 
It's strange to me that boring some sort of tunnel under the Alleghenies to bypass the Horseshoe Curve doesn't seem to have ever been seriously studied.
Base tunnels in Europe are inordinately expensive and tend to get built on routes with large number of trains. As in typically multiple trains an hour.

Nobody would spend that kind of money on a route that presently gets one train a day, and that might under optimistic projections one day grow to two or even four trains a day.
 
Base tunnels in Europe are inordinately expensive and tend to get built on routes with large number of trains. As in typically multiple trains an hour.
Wasn't at least the Gotthard Base Tunnel justified significantly by the need to get transit trucks ff the roads and onto trains to remove pollution and CO2 emission? Of course the fact that the railroad is electrified was an important component of that argument, which in general is not available in the US.
Nobody would spend that kind of money on a route that presently gets one train a day, and that might under optimistic projections one day grow to two or even four trains a day.
If freight trains became part of the justification then the equations change considerably, but that would take American freight operators to buy into the virtues of trying to run more trains and stop losing market share as a business imperative first.
 
Wasn't at least the Gotthard Base Tunnel justified significantly by the need to get transit trucks ff the roads and onto trains to remove pollution and CO2 emission? Of course the fact that the railroad is electrified was an important component of that argument, which in general is not available in the US.

If freight trains became part of the justification then the equations change considerably, but that would take American freight operators to buy into the virtues of trying to run more trains and stop losing market share as a business imperative first.
In the case of the Channel tunnel, an important part of the income is actually not from thru trains but from shuttles carrying cars and trucks that are otherwise using the highway system. For this to work there has to be a natural barrier (in this case the water). In the case of the Gotthard tunnel there is also a natural barrier (a chain of high mountains with restricted road capacity and adverse conditions in winter on some of those roads) plus also - more importantly - an artificial barrier (Switzerland restricts the number of trucks that may pass per day and makes them pay a lot of money for the priviledge). Switzerland does not shuttle cars on the Gotthard route but there are shuttles for trucks between a terminal in the south of Germany and one in the north of Italy.

There are however other rail tunnels in Switzerland on which both car and truck shuttles do operate. Typically these work because the alterative road connection is closed down seasonally due to snowfall and is torturous to use even when open.

There are thus artificial and/or natural restrictions that favor sending freight by rail and even trucks by rail.

For this to work in the Appalachians it would not suffice for NS to get their act together and run a better service, but you would basically need to similarly restrict or price the alternative roads to make them less competitive. I cannot imagine a scenario like that getting any traction in the US in my lifetime.
 
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Yeah. Realistically I don't see this sort of a tunnel happening because saving half hour to an hour on a cross Pennsylvania trip for even four trains each way does not justify such.

Unless something changes spectacularly in Pennsylvania politics and Amtrak management I don;t see much chance of more than four trains a day each way across Pennsylvania on the NS. More likely is three, two NYP/PHL - PGH and one reinstatement of the Broadway in some form if we are lucky.
 
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Base tunnels in Europe are inordinately expensive and tend to get built on routes with large number of trains. As in typically multiple trains an hour.

Nobody would spend that kind of money on a route that presently gets one train a day, and that might under optimistic projections one day grow to two or even four trains a day.
It's the most direct route between Chicago and the East Coast. If the line ended at Pittsburgh I'd agree, but it doesn't.
 
Switzerland really pushes car shuttles (and truck) to stop from having to build road capacity and to reduce pollution. Plus it's a generally more mountainous country (and fairly wealthy and technologically advanced) and I have the suspicion that some of the rail projects outside of the base tunnels are regional economic development related.

All that said, the Appalachians aren't that rugged or tall and, my swag guess is, trains could be sped up enough to make them far faster and more useful without massive tunneling through them (or full HSR).
 
If you get technical at one time New York-Pittsburgh was a very passenger dense line. Of course back then it was the Pennsylvania Railroad fielding the trains and most of the trains were for points west of Pittsburgh more so than just the local service. I do think there is room to run more than two trains even with the current infrastructure. As far as I know nothing has really changed with the right of way since we had two trains a day on the line in the 90s and 00s. Has train count gone up I couldn't comment on that I don't know. But given the trends lately I would think longer trains to avoid more crew starts, meaning fewer trains. So in theory there is capacity.
 
If you get technical at one time New York-Pittsburgh was a very passenger dense line. Of course back then it was the Pennsylvania Railroad fielding the trains and most of the trains were for points west of Pittsburgh more so than just the local service. I do think there is room to run more than two trains even with the current infrastructure. As far as I know nothing has really changed with the right of way since we had two trains a day on the line in the 90s and 00s. Has train count gone up I couldn't comment on that I don't know. But given the trends lately I would think longer trains to avoid more crew starts, meaning fewer trains. So in theory there is capacity.

I understand many of the trains using Horseshoe Curve are coal trains, so a slow decline of coal show free up additional capacity.
 
If you get technical at one time New York-Pittsburgh was a very passenger dense line. Of course back then it was the Pennsylvania Railroad fielding the trains and most of the trains were for points west of Pittsburgh more so than just the local service. I do think there is room to run more than two trains even with the current infrastructure. As far as I know nothing has really changed with the right of way since we had two trains a day on the line in the 90s and 00s. Has train count gone up I couldn't comment on that I don't know. But given the trends lately I would think longer trains to avoid more crew starts, meaning fewer trains. So in theory there is capacity.
To some extent this argument is a bit of water under the bridge since PennDOT and NS have already struck a deal to spend something like $200 Million to add trackage and universal crossovers at various places as precondition for adding a second train. Allegedly adding a third train should not require any further work, but then a new management team at NS inevitably could think otherwise, since the whole thing is somewhat capricious IMHO. But at least there is a somewhat more activist STB overseeing this process now.
 
Cross-Appalachian passenger service will never be really competitive with driving unless they can consistently run at an average speed of at least 50 mph end-to-end. The Pennsylvanian does the 353 miles between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh in 7.3 hours for an average speed of about 48 mph. That's almost good enough, but, of course, we know that the train doesn't always run on schedule.

However, the highway distance between the two cities is only 305 miles, so a car traveling at an average speed of 50 mph will be able to do the trip in 6 hours. Thus, for the train to be competitive, they'll either have to speed up the train or cut out some curves and shorten the distance of the rail route. Hopefully, this could be done without having the expense of something like a base tunnel.

Of course, even with the slower speed, the current Pennsylvanian is still competitive for people traveling to the smaller intermediate towns, most of which are not near the Turnpike and don't have alternative bus service. (Hi there, Huntingdon!) But if you really want the train to be a significant player in the transportation mode-share in this corridor (and take cars of the road), it will need to be sped up, and, of course, have more frequent trains.
 
To some extent this argument is a bit of water under the bridge since PennDOT and NS have already struck a deal to spend something like $200 Million to add trackage and universal crossovers at various places as precondition for adding a second train. Allegedly adding a third train should not require any further work, but then a new management team at NS inevitably could think otherwise, since the whole thing is somewhat capricious IMHO. But at least there is a somewhat more activist STB overseeing this process now.

Well I agree with you that is water under the bridge and hopefully when it comes to adding a third train it won't require more work. Truthfully I don't think you would see a third train on the route because it's just at the length where you are pushing something into a graveyard shift somewhere to hit current mission objectives on the end points. Maybe some form of a Philadelphia-Pittsburgh service could work but I would wonder what ridership you would lose from not having New York. Or you could make it a section of the Night Owl which would be an interesting one seat pairing Boston-Pittsburgh. I would love to see a night train on the market. You can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty confident in this. The Pennsylvania Railroad used to field two strictly night runs on the Pittsburgh-New York market one of which was a mix of coaches and pullmans, the other was the all Pullman Pittsburgher. I've actually worked on several of the sleepers from the Pittsburgher.

Now I would think using some of these improvements maybe we could get a commuter service in Pittsburgh which I think is a city ripe for that development given it's history having commuter rail all the way into the 1980s.
 
Now I would think using some of these improvements maybe we could get a commuter service in Pittsburgh which I think is a city ripe for that development given it's history having commuter rail all the way into the 1980s.
The political problem is that Western PA tends to be much more anti-passenger rail than Eastern PA when it comes time to fund anything. Other than that I think it would be really nice. Pittsburgh did have a Commuter service even in the Amtrak era, though funded and operated locally, which of course went bye bye.
 
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Historically there were quite a few commuter runs out of Pittsburgh. And I would find it hard to believe that they are completely opposed to it. Pittsburgh itself is very much a blue area, and that really runs back historically when you consider the various Union mills in that region historically. And only focusing on trying to develop areas that we think are politically easier is how we alienate these more rural voting blocks. Which is why I think it should be a primary objective for some parties to obstruct or have as a goal because it helps their power balance. If we are to actually try and improve our world we need to focus not just on ourselves but our greater community as well.

For Instance here is what Pittsburgh used to have circa 1952.

Pennsylvania Railroad
North Trafford-Pittsburgh Commuter Trains
Up To 4 Pairs Daily

Derry-Pittsburgh Commuter Train
Up To 4 Pairs Daily

Beaver Falls-Pittsburgh Commuter Train
Up To 4 Pairs Daily

Burgettstown-Pittsburgh Commuter Train
Up To 2 Pairs Daily

Baltimore & Ohio
Versailes-Pittsburgh
Up To 7 Pairs Daily

Pittsburgh & Lake Erie
I believe they had something but I must not have recorded it when I did the Official Guide Map.
 
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