#1 LAX Arrival

[Devil's Advocate]

Maybe the westbound Sunset should (1) sit on a siding someplace for a couple of hours in the middle of the night to kill some time, just as the overnight Montreal - Toronto trains used to do, and then roll into LAX about 7:30 but (2) I guess there is no slot available then. When the Sunset used to allow passengers to remain on board after arrival in LAX I would think that (3) it must have difficult to sleep with staff banging around, loud talking and other passengers leaving but maybe not so. 

1.  The SL previously experienced a longer dwell time in SAS and some additional padding.  It wasn't ideal for connecting passengers or for local departures but it was much better for arrival into LAUS/LAX.

2.  The SL already had a good slot.  I'm not sure how it would lose that slot unless Amtrak gave it away or exchanged it for something else.  Perhaps somebody with more knowledge of the situation can chime in.

3.  Some crews didn't take Amtrak's offer to sleep-in seriously, in those cases it was indeed difficult to make use of it, but other crews would allow you to rise and shower at a nice leisurely pace, just so long as you left before the train was called back to the yard.

Wait, what time did it previously arrive?

 

[cpotisch]

Wait, what time did it previously arrive?

View attachment 12435

Damn, that's a million times better than what it is now.   When was this from? The actual look seems identical to the current timetable, but the times are so far off...

 

[Rasputin]

The schedule changed in early May 2012, probably around May 8 or so.  This earlier schedule had No. 2 arriving in El Paso just after breakfast (or during a late breakfast in our case) and had some nice scenery east of Alpine but of course it missed the scenery west of El Paso that you get to see now. 

The station personnel at Tucson in 2012 was expecting the new arrival times to be much better for Tucson and was expecting that it would result in more ridership to and from Tucson.  I don't know if that actually materialized but perhaps someone has that information.  

 

[trainman74]

Heh, that's a lot of padding coming into L.A. If it was running on time (I know, a big if), its actual arrival time could have been more like 9:00.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Damn, that's a million times better than what it is now. When was this from?

That schedule was from 2005-2012 and the clip itself was from 2008.

I don't know if that actually materialized but perhaps someone has that information.  

I didn't record any information for TUS but I did keep track of O&D pax erosion @ SAS for a few years.  At one point Amtrak suspended/moved such reporting and I lost interest.


 


SAS


2012


70,161


2013


68,268


2014


62,002


2015


55,627


2016


52,960

Heh, that's a lot of padding coming into L.A. If it was running on time (I know, a big if), its actual arrival time could have been more like 9:00.

Even with a lot of padding 9AM is still well within the range of normal business hours so if you had to pass the time waiting for someone it's no big deal.

 

[the_traveler]

That was just after the UP/SP merger meltdown when they were running hours and hours late, and added 8 hours to the schedule. (I think a few runs ran 30+ hours late!  I think 1 was like 50+ hours late!! )

You will notice that while SAS had “good times”, neither the westbound SL or the eastbound SL had a connection with the CS. So if going north of SAC, you had to take a bus to the SJ and board in SAC at midnight (if the CS was on time). If coming from north of SAC, you had to get off the CS at 6:15 am in SAC. And both ways, you would not see the Southern CA coastline on the CS.

 

[lstone19]

I rode 1 New Orleans-LAX in 1986 when it was a 2:35pm departure from NOL and a 7:35am arrival in LAX. The trip was mostly on time with an early arrival at LAX.

 

[the_traveler]

After the meltdown, at first they added 8 hours to the western portion of the schedule. Then they gradually reduced the extra time to -0- added.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

That was just after the UP/SP merger meltdown when they were running hours and hours late, and added 8 hours to the schedule. (I think a few runs ran 30+ hours late! I think 1 was like 50+ hours late!!)

Maybe I'm missing something but the UP+SP merger was approved in 1996.  My post was referencing a schedule that began nearly a decade later in 2005.

You will notice that while SAS had “good times”, neither the westbound SL or the eastbound SL had a connection with the CS. So if going north of SAC, you had to take a bus to the SJ and board in SAC at midnight (if the CS was on time). If coming from north of SAC, you had to get off the CS at 6:15 am in SAC. And both ways, you would not see the Southern CA coastline on the CS.

The Northbound CS doesn't leave until 10AM and there are practical means and methods for catching up with it even if the Sunset Limited arrives later than that.  None of this explains why Westbound trains board at SAS between midnight and 3AM or why Los Angeles arrivals are scheduled for 5AM.  The implication that LAX and SAS should suffer poor calling times so that connecting passengers can enjoy daytime scenery on a completely different route is an uncompelling argument (IMO).

 

[Rasputin]

I think the 5:35 a.m. arrival time for No. 1 at LAX is just wacky.  It must discourage many passengers especially when they realize that wake-up time will likely be 4-4:30 a.m.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

How important are LD-LD connections anyway? They seem to influence a lot of LD schedules, sometimes to the detriment of other potential passengers (e.g. Sunset Limited, Cardinal).

 

[Chatter163]

I rode the SL in 2002, when we departed LAX on schedule at 10:30PM Wendesday night. We were supposed to arrive in Orlando at 6PM on Saturday, but various delays caused us to arrive at 8AM Sunday, so we had four nights on the train.

I rode the SL in 1996, when we departed Miami at 3PM Monday and arrived in LAX at 9AM Thursday.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Infamous 24 Hour Late Sunset Ltd. East!

 

[tricia]

How important are LD-LD connections anyway? They seem to influence a lot of LD schedules, sometimes to the detriment of other potential passengers (e.g. Sunset Limited, Cardinal).
 
 

For a national network as skeletal as Amtrak, connectivity is super important. Passengers generally are looking to get from one point to another, regardless of whether both points are served by the same train.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

How important are LD-LD connections anyway? They seem to influence a lot of LD schedules, sometimes to the detriment of other potential passengers (e.g. Sunset Limited, Cardinal).

For a national network as skeletal as Amtrak, connectivity is super important. Passengers generally are looking to get from one point to another, regardless of whether both points are served by the same train.

I don't disagree that connections are important.  I just think any undesirable rescheduling that is deemed necessary to make these connections practical should be spread across both routes rather than substantially favoring one over another.  It has been repeatedly claimed and implied that the Sunset Route is not strong enough to survive on its own, which may in fact be true, but perhaps we should give it equal footing with a puncher's chance to succeed before we throw it to the wolves.  Daily service at reasonable calling times for two or three years might be able to turn things around.

 

[cpotisch]

I rode the SL in 2002, when we departed LAX on schedule at 10:30PM Wendesday night. We were supposed to arrive in Orlando at 6PM on Saturday, but various delays caused us to arrive at 8AM Sunday, so we had four nights on the train.

I rode the SL in 1996, when we departed Miami at 3PM Monday and arrived in LAX at 9AM Thursday.

Really a shame that I was born just a few years too late for the Sunset East. It would have allowed me to take a full cross country train trip with a stop at my grandparents' place in Boca. If only... 

 

[Cal]

I don't disagree that connections are important. I just think any undesirable rescheduling that is deemed necessary to make these connections practical should be spread across both routes rather than substantially favoring one over another. It has been repeatedly claimed and implied that the Sunset Route is not strong enough to survive on its own, which may in fact be true, but perhaps we should give it equal footing with a puncher's chance to succeed before we throw it to the wolves. Daily service at reasonable calling times for two or three years might be able to turn things around.

Sorry if I'm not supposed to make this active again...

But I think the Sunset should arrive at about 6:30-7:15 AM. This should be enough time to connect with the Starlight. It allows passengers to wake up at a more reasonable time. And it could probably make for a slightly better SAS arrival. Or they could use the hour to add additional padding.

As for SAS being untimely, I personally would rather have the switching be done at night. That would be very annoying for any passenger awake to want to go do something, and be unable to due to the switching. If only they could make it around 10 PM to midnight.

I just feel like the Sunset is jailed between so many connections. The Eagle still needs to arrive at a similar time into Chicago, they want connections to the CS, and the CONO/Crescent in NOL.

 

[railiner]

Trying to optimize a long train schedule for connections and desirable station times is indeed a tricky business, that always will mean compromises...

 

[Cal]

Trying to optimize a long train schedule for connections and desirable station times is indeed a tricky business, that always will mean compromises...

Yep....

 

[bratkinson]

Trying to optimize a long train schedule for connections and desirable station times is indeed a tricky business, that always will mean compromises...

One cannot forget the CHI departure of #21/421 is timed to be 'slotted in' with other westbound LD departures (afternoons to mesh with AM arrivals from the East) AND avoids the Metra rush hour trains. It also has to provide daylight arrival and departure times both ways at STL, DAL and FTW, and STILL make a reasonably decent evening arrival at SAS! Connecting at SAS to #1 MUST allow for several hours of delays to both arriving trains as that happens way too often as well. Hence, the nearly 5 hour layover/switching time for #421 at SAS.

One poster indicated that simply moving the NOL departure back several hours would make LAX arrival so much easier to stomach. But doing that would put the HOS stop past 9PM or so, and move TUS to sometime around midnight!

Simply put, it's impossible to make ALL major city arrivals and departures on LD routes during 'normal business hours' to make everybody happy. That's why CLE and PGH times are dismal in each direction! The connections at each end of the routes through those cities are far more important than 2AM-6AM times for a couple of cities in between.

Oh...almost forgot...there's a significant number of people that connect from #1/421 to #14 at 10:10AM from LAX. The 4+ hour connection time is a 'safety net' to ensure that connection. I've done it maybe 15-20 times in the past 40+ years and never been bused at, say, 4AM to meet it somewhere down the line.

 

[tricia]

One cannot forget the CHI departure of #21/421 is timed to be 'slotted in' with other westbound LD departures (afternoons to mesh with AM arrivals from the East) AND avoids the Metra rush hour trains. It also has to provide daylight arrival and departure times both ways at STL, DAL and FTW, and STILL make a reasonably decent evening arrival at SAS! Connecting at SAS to #1 MUST allow for several hours of delays to both arriving trains as that happens way too often as well. Hence, the nearly 5 hour layover/switching time for #421 at SAS.

One poster indicated that simply moving the NOL departure back several hours would make LAX arrival so much easier to stomach. But doing that would put the HOS stop past 9PM or so, and move TUS to sometime around midnight!

Simply put, it's impossible to make ALL major city arrivals and departures on LD routes during 'normal business hours' to make everybody happy. That's why CLE and PGH times are dismal in each direction! The connections at each end of the routes through those cities are far more important than 2AM-6AM times for a couple of cities in between.

Oh...almost forgot...there's a significant number of people that connect from #1/421 to #14 at 10:10AM from LAX. The 4+ hour connection time is a 'safety net' to ensure that connection. I've done it maybe 15-20 times in the past 40+ years and never been bused at, say, 4AM to meet it somewhere down the line.

All this is a pretty good demonstration of why Amtrak's entire long-distance network needs twice-a-day frequencies.

 

[railiner]

All this is a pretty good demonstration of why Amtrak's entire long-distance network needs twice-a-day frequencies.

But even twice a day doesn't automatically solve everything, especially if the routes vary somewhat...case in point the Star, Meteor, and Palmetto.
What particularly annoys me, is the Star and Meteor arrive in Miami, almost together.

 

[frequentflyer]

I think the 5:35 a.m. arrival time for No. 1 at LAX is just wacky. It must discourage many passengers especially when they realize that wake-up time will likely be 4-4:30 a.m.

At least the drive home on the freeways is bearable that early.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

When I arrived on the sunset I remember stumbling into the Starbucks in Union Station which was just opening. I got a coffee and pastry, and then used my free refill on a passion tea to take with me to the first Surfliner train which was parked right next to.... the Sunset Limited consist. Shame I couldn’t have slept a little longer and just made a cross platform transfer!

I honestly regret not taking the Surfliner all the way to San Diego and then back up to Anaheim and watch the sun rise over the pacific. But I was really tired from the early morning and my Hilton bed was waiting for me! Haha.

 

[Dakota 400]

Shame I couldn’t have slept a little longer and just made a cross platform transfer!

A question that I asked my SCA during my trip on #1: is it possible to remain in my roomette for awhile after the train arrived at Los Angeles? Politely, I was told no, passengers had to disembark upon arrival.