24-Hour Diner and Other Concepts

[user 1215]

Somewhere in another thread on another forum a long time ago was an experiment that was performed with a 24-hour diner car and triple crew. From what I understand, the revenue more than covered for the extra man power, but the concept was not implemented.

Another concept that I've pondered has to do with coach value added options. How about throwing in a shower for coach pax, but make it pay per use?

I've also toyed with thoughts like vending machines that nuke your burger when you press the button - very popular in Japan.

How about coach bunks like on VIA?

But as for revenue generation, I can't understand why on Earth the Diner would have to ever turn away passengers willing, ready and able to pay the $$$ on the menu for a really nice meal. Since trains run well beyond normal business hours, it would seem to make sense that a person boarding at 1 AM may be ready to have a nice meal under their belt before taking to rest.

How about if Waffle House was in charge of the Diner?!? Now THAT would be cool!

 

[TVRM610]

I personally think that a "Business Class" or first class seating area would work great on long distance trains. If the Sleeper is too expensive, I would gladly pay a reasonable amount more to know that I will have an assigned seat when I get on, and in the case of 2/1 seating, a seat by myself if I am traveling solo.

I've thought about the waffle house concept too, they do not have much more room in their kitchen, and frequently work with one cook and one or two servers, and they have a full menu.

 

[MrFSS]

I've thought about the waffle house concept too, they do not have much more room in their kitchen, and frequently work with one cook and one or two servers, and they have a full menu.

In our part of the country folks refer to them as the Awful House. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[TVRM610]

I've thought about the waffle house concept too, they do not have much more room in their kitchen, and frequently work with one cook and one or two servers, and they have a full menu.

In our part of the country folks refer to them as the Awful House. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm pretty sure thats true in all parts of the country! Hey, Waffle House can make the Amtrak food look gourmet!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak would have some success with extra-fare sectional-sleepers, I'd think. Vending machines would also make sense.

Running a 24 hour diner? Thats bughouse. It would lose so much money, it would be like running the Three Rivers without mail revenue.

 

[TVRM610]

The problem with sleeper sections is they don't save amtrak any money. A section takes up the same amount of space as a bedroom. Now slumbercoaches, they could pack them in! I miss em.

 

[AlanB]

The problem with sleeper sections is they don't save amtrak any money. A section takes up the same amount of space as a bedroom. Now slumbercoaches, they could pack them in! I miss em.

A section might not save Amtrak any money, but it probably would increase revenue. After all with the current rooms, manys the time that only one person occupys a room, meaning that no fare is collected for the other bed. With a sectional, at least Amtrak has the chance to actually sell every bed, assuming that the demmand is there.

Mind you though, I won't be one of those in the sectionals. I love my room. Especially the ability to take the earpiece out of my ear and just use the scanner's speaker.

 

[user 1215]

I've thought about the waffle house concept too, they do not have much more room in their kitchen, and frequently work with one cook and one or two servers, and they have a full menu.

In our part of the country folks refer to them as the Awful House. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm pretty sure thats true in all parts of the country! Hey, Waffle House can make the Amtrak food look gourmet!

It's ALL in the presentation. LOL.

As for the 24-hour diner, it was declared very successful - at least by the United Rail Passenger Alliance. Look at point 5 on this page. They've even talked about resurrecting it on the CoNO as the "All Day Dining".

Trying to find the actual results...

 

[TVRM610]

The problem with sleeper sections is they don't save amtrak any money. A section takes up the same amount of space as a bedroom. Now slumbercoaches, they could pack them in! I miss em.

A section might not save Amtrak any money, but it probably would increase revenue. After all with the current rooms, manys the time that only one person occupys a room, meaning that no fare is collected for the other bed. With a sectional, at least Amtrak has the chance to actually sell every bed, assuming that the demmand is there.

Mind you though, I won't be one of those in the sectionals. I love my room. Especially the ability to take the earpiece out of my ear and just use the scanner's speaker.

Oh yea, I hadn't thought of that. It would make sense then. I agree with you though, I like my room too! But it would be nice to have something in between coach and sleeper price wise. But I need to look on the bright side, at least I don't live in Canada, you can't even get a section for a reasonable rate up there. (Not saying Canada in general is a bad place to live, just the cost of traveling in sleepers is too high!)

 

[Dental Wiz]

Regarding Section sleepers, come on guys read your history. Pullman discontinued sections because they were finding it harder and harder to sell the upper birth. Most were being left unsold. The trend in those days was towards the private room design, hence the development of the roomette and double bedroom. To suggest that Amtrak should reinvent the section is pure folly.

I've thought about the waffle house concept too, they do not have much more room in their kitchen, and frequently work with one cook and one or two servers, and they have a full menu.

In our part of the country folks refer to them as the Awful House. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm pretty sure thats true in all parts of the country! Hey, Waffle House can make the Amtrak food look gourmet!

It's ALL in the presentation. LOL.

As for the 24-hour diner, it was declared very successful - at least by the United Rail Passenger Alliance. Look at point 5 on this page. They've even talked about resurrecting it on the CoNO as the "All Day Dining".

Trying to find the actual results...

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The problem with sleeper sections is they don't save amtrak any money. A section takes up the same amount of space as a bedroom. Now slumbercoaches, they could pack them in! I miss em.

Thats not entirely accurate. Two points. One, a couple could occupy one level of a sectional. Second, with the way we set up sleepers, we only get groups who agree to it to stay in rooms, whereas with the section, the second person doesn't have to be part of your party. Lastly, lets say Amtrak charges $50 for the upgrade to the sectional, but does not include meals. That would generate revenue, and probably also ridership. There are people who don't want to sit up while sleeping, but don't want to spend several hundred bucks on a room.

 

[Dental Wiz]

Now for vending machine issue. Both New York Central and Southern Pacific tried this "innovation" and it was never well received by passengers. Mind you I'm not against innovation to improve the economics of long distance passenger train travel. I think Amtrak is on to something with the Cross Country Cafe for medium distance long distance trains such as the CNO or the Eagle. Initial results by passengers seem to be positive. Amtrak is offering a product that probably better suits the needs of the passengers on those lines. Vending machines or automat cars to support full meals are really an idea from the past that failed. How many automat machines exist today anywhere that serve full meals or even sandwhiches. Most disapeared years ago. Vending machines today concentrate on quick snacks, candy, and soft drinks. The chains of Automat restaurants in New York City closed years ago.

Regarding Section sleepers, come on guys read your history. Pullman discontinued sections because they were finding it harder and harder to sell the upper birth. Most were being left unsold. The trend in those days was towards the private room design, hence the development of the roomette and double bedroom. To suggest that Amtrak should reinvent the section is pure folly.

I've thought about the waffle house concept too, they do not have much mor e room in their kitchen, and frequently work with one cook and one or two servers, and they have a full menu.

In our part of the country folks refer to them as the Awful House. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm pretty sure thats true in all parts of the country! Hey, Waffle House can make the Amtrak food look gourmet

It's ALL in the presentation. LOL.

As for the 24-hour diner, it was declared very successful - at least by the United Rail Passenger Alliance. Look at point 5 on this page. They've even talked about resurrecting it on the CoNO as the "All Day Dining".

Trying to find the actual results...

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm not suggesting full meals. I'm just thinking that it would be nice to get a can of coke or a choclate bar at 2-3 AM and a vending machine supplementing the other stuff would be perfect for that.

 

[jphjaxfl]

As the previous poster stated, Southern Pacific replaced Dining Cars with vending machine cars back in the late 1960s. Even the Sunset LTD had only a Vending Machine car for the entire trip from Los Angeles to New Orleans. The Vending Machine food was horrible, but it did exactly what Espee wanted by driving passengers away. At one point the Sunset LTD was coaches only with a vending machine car for the entire route, but still on a daily schedule. The City of San Francisco between Oakland and Ogden and the Cascade between Oakland and Portland also were coach only with a vending machine car. In 1969, Espee proposed to cut all 3 trains to 3 times per week and in exchange agreed to restore Sleeping Car, Dining and Lounge service to all 3 trains. Needless to say, the ICC agreed as there had been so many complaints about lack of amenities of these trains. When Amtrak took over, the City of San Francisco eventually returned to daily service as the California Zephyr and the Cascade became the Coast Starlite and eventually became daily between Oakland and Portland where it had been tri weekly for several years. Unfortunately, the Sunset LTD did not return to daily. The Vending Machines were a bad idea then and wouldn't be much better today. Interestingly enough Espee gave former dining car waiters positions in the Vending Machine cars, heating food for passengers, cleaning up etc and they were expecting to be tipped, much as they were when they worked in the dining cars.

 

[had8ley]

The problem with sleeper sections is they don't save amtrak any money. A section takes up the same amount of space as a bedroom. Now slumbercoaches, they could pack them in! I miss em.

I still say the noble experiment COULD be the transistion dorm on the City of New Orleans. You have a car that is basically lodging five, oops four now, crew members for about 6 hours of rest. Pull the freebies and keep the shower and I guarantee your roomette revenue would sky rocket if priced properly. And let them go at the last minute for peanuts. Whoever gets what would otherwise be an empty room has to eat and drink at Amtrak prices.

Oh boy, how I loved the Horn & Hardat's. Times were sure a lot simpler...

 

[frj1983]

Durn if I can remember (Because I read so much),

But I do recall Via saying that they were going to phase out the section-type sleepers...does anyone else remember reading this?

 

[had8ley]

As the previous poster stated, Southern Pacific replaced Dining Cars with vending machine cars back in the late 1960s. Even the Sunset LTD had only a Vending Machine car for the entire trip from Los Angeles to New Orleans. The Vending Machine food was horrible, but it did exactly what Espee wanted by driving passengers away. At one point the Sunset LTD was coaches only with a vending machine car for the entire route, but still on a daily schedule. The City of San Francisco between Oakland and Ogden and the Cascade between Oakland and Portland also were coach only with a vending machine car. In 1969, Espee proposed to cut all 3 trains to 3 times per week and in exchange agreed to restore Sleeping Car, Dining and Lounge service to all 3 trains. Needless to say, the ICC agreed as there had been so many complaints about lack of amenities of these trains. When Amtrak took over, the City of San Francisco eventually returned to daily service as the California Zephyr and the Cascade became the Coast Starlite and eventually became daily between Oakland and Portland where it had been tri weekly for several years. Unfortunately, the Sunset LTD did not return to daily. The Vending Machines were a bad idea then and wouldn't be much better today. Interestingly enough Espee gave former dining car waiters positions in the Vending Machine cars, heating food for passengers, cleaning up etc and they were expecting to be tipped, much as they were when they worked in the dining cars.

I remember the not so friendly attendant who wanted you to tip him for giving you change just to use the machines! This was in the dark ages before dollar bill changers. The food was just as bad as his attitude. I wish I had a nickel for every one I heard say, "I won't make this mistake again." Exactly what the SP set out to accomplish.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

"Passengers will please refrain..."

I'm not, in any way, suggesting they should cut the service they have now. I'm just thinking it might make some extra revenue at little or no cost to install a small vending machine in the lounge car for the hours that it would normally be closed, so that people can get a can of coke, or some cookies.

 

[user 1215]

It is, indeed, ridiculous the amount of time you can spend on board without having access to snacks & drinks. Now, back to the ccc that I could care less about for the most part - attendants are dishing out snacks, drinks and full meals? How about reducing their task to meals and beverages (purchased with meals) and allow folks to push a button for chips and soda?

As for the sleeper issue, I think that a very real problem could be that a sectional could potentially draw from the sleeper crowd rather than from the coach crowd. All I know is that I just want to sleep horizontally and be able to take a shower, but the cost of a sleeper is usually out of my league.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Its probably more profitable than coach would be, and also more profitable than private sleepers.

 

[Kramerica]

It is, indeed, ridiculous the amount of time you can spend on board without having access to snacks & drinks. Now, back to the ccc that I could care less about for the most part - attendants are dishing out snacks, drinks and full meals? How about reducing their task to meals and beverages (purchased with meals) and allow folks to push a button for chips and soda?

I have only ridden the Empire Builder. When I saw the lounge food setup, I thought A) why isn't the attendant serving better food, or B) why is there an attendant serving vending machine food? A vending machine could serve the same stuff, but for less cost and would give 24 hour access. I've never seen vending machines that heats your food, but if feasible they would solve the "problem" of having microwaves available for customer use.

As for the sleeper issue, I think that a very real problem could be that a sectional could potentially draw from the sleeper crowd rather than from the coach crowd. All I know is that I just want to sleep horizontally and be able to take a shower, but the cost of a sleeper is usually out of my league.

Don't the sleepers on most trains sell out? If so, then I don't see how a sectional would hurt. In fact, the sectional may be a "gateway drug" that gets coach passengers to want to get a sleeper in the future.

My wife and I both would love someplace to sleep horizontally. But we don't need free meals, a better attendant, free drinks, or privacy. We wouldn't need a shower either, but if there was a pay-per-use one, we might use it. Simply sleeping horizontally is worth at least $20/night.