30(3) in a rear end collision?

[jis]

According to a posting on TO 30(3) rear ended an NS freight between Elyria and Cleveland. Happened around 3:45am. Apparently not an extremely major collision since trains are getting past there. For example 48 has gotten past there with no additional delay. But 30 is dead in the water.

Further details awaited.

 

[user 1215]

If it was hard enough to disable the train, I hope the loco crew is safe. Physically. Depending on circumstances, their employment may not be as safe...

 

[Charles Ryder]

I am on the Capitol Limited (30) right now. We have been stuck since roughly 0330. The train stopped with a jolt then. I'm in coach. Conductor told another passenger that we had hit another train. Amtrak rep says we may be under way around ten o'clock.any other trains, both passenger and freight, have passed us on the other track. A bloody disaster.

 

[jis]

30(3) is now expected into CLE 7 hours late. So whatever it was was minor enough to recover from and continue the journey though grossly delayed.

 

[Charles Ryder]

If it was hard enough to disable the train, I hope the loco crew is safe. Physically. Depending on circumstances, their employment may not be as safe...

When the conductor announced that the entire operations crew was being relieved, the sound of his voice conveyed fear. As far as we know, none of the ops crew was injured (Deo gratias), but they also are not communicating with the passengers well, so what do I know.

 

[D]

The carrier will pull the whole crew out of service; thus the fear in the voice. Hopefully they will get back.

 

[jis]

Charles, thanks very much for your on the spot reports.

 

[greatcats]

I certainly don't know the cause or who may be at fault, but it would be normal procedure to send the entire crew for drug testing and replace them, which of course takes time to furnish another crew. Yes, even the conductor, as that person is actually in charge of the train.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

In light of this, what is the conductor's responsibility if s/he suspects an engineer is under the influence before he takes over the controls? Or during the trip is DUI?

 

[greatcats]

I will not attempt to answer that beyond what I stated, as that goes past the limits of my knowledge on this subject.

 

[Steve4031]

I would think that the answer is obvious. Isn't it rule G that applies to this situation. The conductor would order the train to stop and a new crew would be brought in. I would thing this would already be determined before the train even left the originating station.

I sure don't think anybody on 30 was intoxicated. Somehow 30 got to close to the freight and the engineer stopped the train enough to avoid a greater tragedy.

It's understandable that the conductor would be visibly afraid. What if the wreck had been worse? What if passengers were injured?

Before we start blaming the crew, keep in mind that the signals might have malfunctioned. Or there was some other additional information we don't have. Right now it's appropriate to praise the engineer for being observant enough to stop 30 in time.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I certainly wasn't blaming anyone or even thinking the crew was under the influence. Just that this topic brought that question to my mind.

 

[retired Amtrak employee]

In light of this, what is the conductor's responsibility if s/he suspects an engineer is under the influence before he takes over the controls? Or during the trip is DUI?

well the conductor's responsibility is the safety of his crew passengers and train ... if the conductor felt that an engineer could put one or all of the 3 i mentioned in danger he's to make sure that tain DOES NOT MOVE until the problem is rectified ... the conductor will not take over the control of the engine if said engineer is visibly inebriated ... the engineer would be relieved of duty and a new engineer called for relief ... now with all that being said ... the days of inebriated crews are down to nil with random testing and being that type of infraction would be a FRA willful violation the engineer could face jail time

 

[jis]

It happened at Olmstead Falls near MP 199. The freight involved was train 058. It is reported to have been more like a "hard coupling" than a full blown collision. Damage is minimal if any, is the report from a few sources.

ETA into Alliance Ohio is now 1145am.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

It happened at Olmstead Falls near MP 199. The freight involved was train 058. It is reported to have been more like a "hard coupling" than a full blown collision. Damage is minimal if any, is the report from a few sources.

ETA into Alliance Ohio is now 1145am.

Maybe 30 just wanted to hitch a ride.

 

[strangebrew]

Sounds like the Amtrak operator was not watching his signals. Not sure if their signaling system works the same, I would assume it does. The signals are there to prevent this kind of occurence.

Disclaimer: I only operate light rail, so this is purely speculation. But it sounds like a signaling issue to me.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Several issues come to mind.

Human, Signals, and Track conditions.

There has been some strange stuff going on the last few years. So we will have to wait for a report, and be glad it was just a "hard coupling" type of accident .

My only issues is with Positive Train Control coming on-line, If I recall correctly a rear ending accident is still going to be a possibility. The system that Europe is building has a axle counters so they know where the train is, and will / should prevent a rear ending event.

.

 

[afigg]

It happened at Olmstead Falls near MP 199. The freight involved was train 058. It is reported to have been more like a "hard coupling" than a full blown collision. Damage is minimal if any, is the report from a few sources.

ETA into Alliance Ohio is now 1145am.

Status Maps shows #30(8/03) departing Cleveland at 11 AM, 9 hours and 6 minutes late. I rather wait until there is information beyond that #30 bumped into the rear of a NS freight train before we end up with a long thread full of wild speculation.
The CL and LSL are having a lousy summer for staying on schedule. The ND track work between CHI and CLE are routinely adding several hours of delay to their trips and the LSL is frequently getting delayed several hours between Schenectady and Buffalo (as are the Empire service and Maple Leaf trains). This incident just adds to a lousy season.

 

[me_little_me]

Well, the only good thing would be for sleeper passengers going to Cleveland. They get a full night's sleep and breakfast!

 

[Charles Ryder]

Amtrak is stopping the train in Pittsburg and busing passengers to final destinations. Given the aforementioned track work, the train would have taken too long to get to Union station. Train 29 passengers are going to be bused to Pittsburg in consequence. A jolly good time was not had by all, though obviously it could have been worse.

 

[jis]

That is odd. This consist is to be used for 29(5). The consist for 29(4) arrived in Washington DC yesterday. I can see why they might wish to bus passengers of 30(3) from PGH. But it seems odd that they won't be able to run the empty consist to Washington DC to protect tomorrow's 29.

 

[MattW]

Sounds like the Amtrak operator was not watching his signals. Not sure if their signaling system works the same, I would assume it does. The signals are there to prevent this kind of occurence.

Disclaimer: I only operate light rail, so this is purely speculation. But it sounds like a signaling issue to me.

Not necessarily. There was an article in Trains magazine about two or so months ago that told about the Silver Star narrowly avoiding a collision because the engineer sensed that the signals were wrong and stopped the train before hitting the CSX train. The signal itself had had a mechanical failure so was showing the wrong aspect, that if taken verbatim, would have allowed the train to proceed at a higher speed right into the stopped CSX train. Let's hold off before blaming anyone (the signal failure I mention wasn't even due to someone off the train doing something, it literally just happened). But I will say this, the NTSB report will be an interesting one to read!

 

[MetraUPWest]

Not to immediately put blame on the engineer, but it happened at 3:45am, just as all these types of incidents happen. They will continue to until Hours of Service is changed so it actually works!! Passenger engineers are only given 8 hours of rest- and they can call you after 6 to start in 8! If you live a half hour from work, that only gives you 5 hours of sleep a night MAX.

In freight service you are given 10 hours undisturbed, so they can't call until that 10 hours is up. Passenger service is more critical, and should be at least that much!

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Not sure about those numbers.

I recall its 1.5 notice for BNSF, but Amtrak call you 2 hours before. Rest periods are 8 hours.

Fact Bus drivers still use the old Hours of Service rules. Up to 10 hours driving than 8 hours off. Truck drivers use the 11 hours of driving and 10 hours off. (Short recap)

 

[MetraUPWest]

Those are the old numbers. The RSIA specified in 2009 that all freight railroads must give a 2 hour call and 10 hours undisturbed rest in any circumstance. Also after 6 consecutive starts you must have 48 hours off.

Passenger service still only requires 8 hours off- no undisturbed rest. You can get called after 6 hours to start in 8, and only need 48 hours off in a 14 day period, thus you can always work 6 days a week. You would think passenger service would be MORE restricted, not less.