a few “technical” questions

[USGrant]

Hello everyone I’m a new member here and have never been on Amtrak

I have a few “technical” questions I’m looking to get answered.

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• Is there a standard or maximum height for bi-level rail cars?
  
  
  
• Are bi-level cars accessible to all routes in the Continental USA? I thought I read somewhere that on certain east coast routs routes bi-level cars didn’t meet the old heights of certain bridges or something so they were not used on certain routes.
  
  
   
  
  
  
• Can a private company start a private scheduled passenger rail service and run passenger trails or is this strictly limited to private charter service? Meaning could someone open a passenger train route if they had the money?
  
  
   
  
  
  
• When traveling over another rail companies lines what is the going rate per mile for rail car?
  
  
   
  
  
  
• Does Amtrak have their own specific rails that are owned by Amtrak or are the rails actually owned by like UP?
  
  
   
  
  
  
• Can you use your own engine if you own your own private rail cars and still use Amtrak rails or do your private cars have to be hooked up to an Amtrak train?
  
  
   
  
  
  
• What company manufactured the California Amtrak engines and rail cars?
  
  
   
  
  
  
• What does a NEW bi-rail passenger car cost complete ready to roll out of the factory?
  
  
   
  
  
  
• I have many more questions but that is enough for now, thank you..
  
  
  

USGrant

 

[Ryan]

1. It depends on the route that you want to run on. MARC operates bi-level cars that will fit through the tunnels in Baltimore but won't fit through the tunnels in New York. NJT operates bilevels that will fit through both. Amtrak's Superliners won't fit through either.

 

2. Sure, but it'd be one heck of a lot of money.

 

3. No clue here - the fees that Amtrak charges to pull a private car behind one of its trains are published on their website.

 

4. Yes, Amtrak owns most, but not all of the tracks on the Northeast Corridor (WAS-BOS). They also own track in Michigan.

 

5. You can, but it'll cost you.

 

6. Alstom made the cars. EMD made most of their locomotives.

 

7. The Superliner II cars cost a little over $2 Million in the early '90's. Not sure what they would cost today.

 

[USGrant]

1. It depends on the route that you want to run on. MARC operates bi-level cars that will fit through the tunnels in Baltimore but won't fit through the tunnels in New York. NJT operates bilevels that will fit through both. Amtrak's Superliners won't fit through either.

 

2. Sure, but it'd be one heck of a lot of money.

 

3. No clue here - the fees that Amtrak charges to pull a private car behind one of its trains are published on their website.

 

4. Yes, Amtrak owns most, but not all of the tracks on the Northeast Corridor (WAS-BOS). They also own track in Michigan.

 

5. You can, but it'll cost you.

 

6. Alstom made the cars. EMD made most of their locomotives.

 

7. The Superliner II cars cost a little over $2 Million in the early '90's. Not sure what they would cost today.

Ryan thank you for the answers,

I am really surprised the super liners will not fit through the tunnels on the East cost, is this a large route that prevents these super lines from running on?

 

[Ryan]

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to ask, but the Superliners also won't fit under the catenary or many of the bridges on that route - they weren't designed to be used on the East Coast.

 

[USGrant]

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to ask, but the Superliners also won't fit under the catenary or many of the bridges on that route - they weren't designed to be used on the East Coast.

I’m new to all this and trying to learn why certain things are as they are.

That amazes me that the super liners don’t fit on the east coast routes due to height limitations, I would think Amtrak would be working on a solution as bi-level cars seem to be so much more practical than single level cars

 

[USGrant]

Ryan thanks for the answers, let me elaborate on a few questions I have based on your responses, and invite others to chime in.

You said

Sure, but it'd be one heck of a lot of money.

Was that in response to my question:

Can a private company start a private scheduled passenger rail service and run passenger trails or is this strictly limited to private charter service? Meaning could someone open a passenger train route if they had the money?

If so why then is Amtrak the only passenger rail service in the USA? I would think someone would start up a route that would be a more profitable one along a certain route that was nice and well traveled

 

[AlanB]

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to ask, but the Superliners also won't fit under the catenary or many of the bridges on that route - they weren't designed to be used on the East Coast.

I’m new to all this and trying to learn why certain things are as they are.

That amazes me that the super liners don’t fit on the east coast routes due to height limitations, I would think Amtrak would be working on a solution as bi-level cars seem to be so much more practical than single level cars

Unfortunately the only solution would be to replace 10 existing tunnels that are in the neighborhood of 100 years old. The Superliner cars are simply too tall to fit through those tunnels. And attempt to run one through would destroy the car(s) and heavily damage the tunnels. Shorter bi-level cars are not possible, as you would no longer have room for luggage in the overhead racks and in the sleeping cars you would have to eliminate the upper bunk. There's barely enough space right now for the upper bunk.

Even if if you did fix the tunnel problem, then as Ryan noted you have issues with the catenary being too low which would cause it to short out on the metal roofs of the cars. Additionally in most cases, the only platforms are high level platforms. The Superliner car's doors are way too low. You'd have to jump up about 3 feet to get off the train. And there is no easy way to fix that problem, without losing space currently in use.

 

[AlanB]

If so why then is Amtrak the only passenger rail service in the USA? I would think someone would start up a route that would be a more profitable one along a certain route that was nice and well traveled

Amtrak is the only inter-city passenger rail service in the US. Many cities and states run commuter rail services.

And the reason that no one else runs services is that it's not possible to make a profit. Since we subsidize the competition, namely roads & planes, rail cannot make enough money competing against the other forms and it always requires subsidies.

 

[USGrant]

any idea how much the EMD California Engines cost new?

 

[USGrant]

Unfortunately the only solution would be to replace 10 existing tunnels that are in the neighborhood of 100 years old. The Superliner cars are simply too tall to fit through those tunnels. And attempt to run one through would destroy the car(s) and heavily damage the tunnels. Shorter bi-level cars are not possible, as you would no longer have room for luggage in the overhead racks and in the sleeping cars you would have to eliminate the upper bunk. There's barely enough space right now for the upper bunk.

Even if if you did fix the tunnel problem, then as Ryan noted you have issues with the catenary being too low which would cause it to short out on the metal roofs of the cars. Additionally in most cases, the only platforms are high level platforms. The Superliner car's doors are way too low. You'd have to jump up about 3 feet to get off the train. And there is no easy way to fix that problem, without losing space currently in use.

Alan

I am doing a great deal of research and have been learning a lot. I notice there are many differences such as low platforms where these bi-level cars have the low doors and in the east all the platforms seemed raised so there is a huge issue there

I just think the bi-level cars were much more practice in terms of the space they provide

I’m trying to find the inner dimensions or ceiling heights in these new Super Liner bi-level cars on both levels

 

[USGrant]

If so why then is Amtrak the only passenger rail service in the USA? I would think someone would start up a route that would be a more profitable one along a certain route that was nice and well traveled

Amtrak is the only inter-city passenger rail service in the US. Many cities and states run commuter rail services.

And the reason that no one else runs services is that it's not possible to make a profit. Since we subsidize the competition, namely roads & planes, rail cannot make enough money competing against the other forms and it always requires subsidies.

I think part of the entire problem with passenger rail is the marketing and the missed market niche. Amtrak has a bad reputation in the way most people think of them, their cars don't look nice or vry inviting but rather commercial and plastic for cheap high volume.

Second when most people think of Elegant passenger rail they think of old folks on excursion .. there doesn't seem to be a business class with super nice amenities such as laptop connections, wifi etc.. or am I missing that

 

[George Harris]

Most of Amtrak's trains run on tracks owned by others. There are six major railrad companies operating in the United States, two of which are primarily Canadian companies with a US component. These are CSX and Norfolk Southern (NS) in the Eastern US and Union Pacific (UP) and BNSF in the western US. All these are mergers of multiple smaller companies. Canadian National and Canadian Pacific both have trackage in the center of the country. There are also lines owned by short lines and commuter authorities that host some Amtrak trains.

Here is a partial breakdown of which lines host which Amtrak routes.

Amtrak owns Boston - New York - Washington DC, plus a short section in Michican.

The California Zephyr: UP: California and Denver. BNSF: Denver to Chicago

Coast Starlight: Metrolink: Los Angeles to Santa Barbara? UP: Santa Barbara to Portland OR BNSF: Portland to Seattle.

Southwest Limited: BNSF

Sunset Limited: UP: Los Angeles to Iowa Jct LA (near Lake Charles LA) BNSF: Iowa Jct to just short of New Orleans, NOPB into New Orleans.

Los Angeles to San Diego: BNSF, Metrolink and the San Diego commuter authority

San Joaquin trains: UP from Oakland to a junction east of Martinez, BNSF the rest of the way.

Capital Corridor trains (California): UP

City of New Orleans: Canadian National - ex Illinois Central

Empire Builder: Canadian Pacific - ex Milwaukee: Chicago to Minneapolis, BNSF the rest of the way.

Chicago - St. Louis - Kansas City: UP

Norteast to Florida Trains: Amtrak owned tracks New York to Washington DC, CSX the rest of the way

Crescent: NY to DC: Amtrak, DC to Alex., VA, CSX, the rest of the way to New Orleans: NS

North Carolina trains: NS

Capitol Limited: DC to Cleveland: CSX Cleveland to Chicago NS

Lake Shore Limited: NYC to Cleveland: CSX Cleveland to Chicago NS

Texas Eagle: UP except for Ft, Worth TX to Temple TX which is BNSF

Note to others: corrections appreciated.

Station ownership is all over the map. Some are still railroad owned, some by local agencies, some by the town they are in, some by Amtrak itself.

Standard passenger cars

The standard American passenger car is 85'-0" over couplers. That length has been standard since the beginning of manufacture of streamlined equipment in the 1930's. Also standard is a body length of 82'-6" and truck centers of 59'-6" The bi-level commuter cars used in San Francisco and a few other places are an exception to this, having 64' truck centers.

The standard width for most coaches is 10 feet. For the streamlined cars built from the 1930's through the last of these constructed in the early 1960's the height of a single level car was 13'-6" The Superliner cars are 16'-2" high.

For comparison, most freight cars have height limits of 15'-6" to 17'-0" Autoracks are higher, and double stack containers may be up to 20 feet above the top of rail.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Amtrak also owns the New Haven to Springfield, Mass., line and the Philadelphia to Harrisburg route of the Keystones, also with short patches to track at large stations such as Chicago and New Orleans.

Amtrak also operates over commuter authorities' trackage include Metro North in the New York City area and Metra in the Chicago area.

 

[MattW]

Amtrak owns Boston - New York - Washington DC, plus a short section in Michican.

Crescent: NY to DC: Amtrak, DC to Alex., VA, CSX, the rest of the way to New Orleans: NS

Just a few quick corrections. I believe Metro North owns the line between New York and New Haven, and Massachusetts DoT owns the line between Providence and Boston, but Amtrak operates the latter segment.

Also, the Crescent operates mostly on Norfolk Southern trackage. I know it's on a brief segment of CSX just after it leaves the Capitol tunnels, but I don't know where it changes over (unless that's NS too), but I do know it's Norfolk Southern on most of its run starting way up in Virginia.

 

[USGrant]

George, thank you for your detailed information on rail car routes and specifications and overall sizes of each car however I have another question.

On single level rail cars of old such as the old Pullman’s what was the interior height from interior floor to the ceiling. Meaning if a person was standing in the observation deck of a car what is the actual interior height of the car.

The same question goes to the super bi-levels on each level.

I hate to assume anything as we all know where they gets us but I would figure the interior height of an old single level rail car might be as high as 8 feet while a super liner might be able to get by with a max or just under 7 feet on each level.

I found a really good PDF of a layout for the new super liners and have been trying to find the interior heights but so far haven’t stumbled upon them as of yet.

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/PRIIA%20BiLevel%20Spec%20305%20001%20Approved%20Initial%20Release.pdf

Anyone is invited to answer this question about on the interior height dimensions

 

[USGrant]

Oh another question for everyone,

Is New York, New Jersey and those lines in that area the only ones where the Super Liners are not able to run? Or is it in other areas up and down the East coast as well?

The reason I ask is let’s say I want to charter a Superliner I want to know where I specifically can NOT go with such a rail car.

 

[Ryan]

Pretty much anywhere between Washington DC and Boston, also from Albany down to New York.

 

It's probably an academic question, as Amtrak probably doesn't have any Superliners available to charter.

 

[USGrant]

Pretty much anywhere between Washington DC and Boston, also from Albany down to New York.

 

It's probably an academic question, as Amtrak probably doesn't have any Superliners available to charter.

Well I was asking as a general question in terms of let’s say a Superliner was to become available for charter, or an older unit was being sold off and was acquired by a private rail owner and they might want to know where they can run it along the lines.

Are there no rail lines in upstate New York for such cars at all? And what about getting into DC for another city such as though Virgina, I know Virgina has bi-level cars on their Virginia Railway Express but am I to understand that is as far as you can go (DC)?

 

[USGrant]

BTW I really appreciate all the great and informative responses so far... here's a real wealth of information here for new members like myself

 

[Ryan]

Gotcha - you can go across upstate New York on the line from Buffalo - Albany - Boston in a Superliner. You can also get into DC from the south on a Superliner (and then leave DC going north on the route of the Capitol Limited. You may even be able to leave DC and get to Baltimore (Camden Station) on the route of MARC's Brunswick line.

 

[USGrant]

Gotcha - you can go across upstate New York on the line from Buffalo - Albany - Boston in a Superliner. You can also get into DC from the south on a Superliner (and then leave DC going north on the route of the Capitol Limited. You may even be able to leave DC and get to Baltimore (Camden Station) on the route of MARC's Brunswick line.

Bu pretty much everywhere else is open to the tall superlines such as the entire state of Florida, Georgia and the rest of the USA?

 

[Ryan]

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[USGrant]

that's good then..

Do you have any idea how much one engine on the California Amtrak costs?

 

[George Harris]

Also, the Crescent operates mostly on Norfolk Southern trackage. I know it's on a brief segment of CSX just after it leaves the Capitol tunnels, but I don't know where it changes over (unless that's NS too), but I do know it's Norfolk Southern on most of its run starting way up in Virginia.

Even though the Southern Railway (NS predecessor for the recent into this stuff) milepost zero is at Washington Union Station, ownnership of main track begins at milepost 9.1, whihc is beyond Alexandria VA, which is at milepost 8.2. The entire Crescent route after that point is on NS trackage, with 2 exceptions: the Birmingham station is the ex L&N station, so for a mile or so in Birmingham the Crescent again operates on CSX tracks. In New Orleans, the last several miles are on the tracks of the NOPB (New Orleans Public Belt), and I think a couple miles of CSX just before getting on NOPB tracks. (Or maybe it was that the old L&N (CSX) east passenger trains ran on a mile or so of Southern (NS) trackage. I don't remember which without digging out the information.)

 

[USGrant]

so many routes and rails to keep up with..

Its my understanding charter trains or other such trains that operate over tracks not owned by the train operator often pay something per mile and per car... anyone know how that works? I mean with all these different tracks being owned by different companies how does it work?