A New Adirondack Route Into Montreal?

[NS VIA FAN]

The tracks have been cut back to west of the Bell Centre and the Station is now called Lucien L’Allier instead of Windsor but Amtrak may be considering moving the Adirondack back to the Station it used in Montreal until 1986.

It was being discussed at an Empire State Passenger Association meeting last weekend that $1.8 million a year could be saved (probably due to high CN track charges into Central Station) and the schedule could be speeded up by using the CPR route from Rouses Point to Montreal instead of switching to CN. Guess the possibility of a Customs facility in the station was also discussed (maybe similar to that used by Amtrak in Pacific Central Station Vancouver??)

And with a special Amtrak train at Lucien L’Allier yesterday with “Beech Grove” adds to the speculation.

 

[jis]

The tracks have been cut back to west of the Bell Centre and the Station is now called Lucien L’Allier instead of Windsor but Amtrak may be considering moving the Adirondack back to the Station it used in Montreal until 1986.
It was being discussed at an Empire State Passenger Association meeting last weekend that $1.8 million a year could be saved (probably due to high CN track charges into Central Station) and the schedule could be speeded up by using the CPR route from Rouses Point to Montreal instead of switching to CN. Guess the possibility of a Customs facility in the station was also discussed (maybe similar to that used by Amtrak in Pacific Central Station Vancouver??)

And with a special Amtrak train at Lucien L’Allier yesterday with “Beech Grove” adds to the speculation.

The Amtrak train was at Lucien L'Allier in connection with the study that could lead to this change. That is not speculation. That is straight from the horse's mouth, the horse being the Amtrak Superintendent of Ops at Albany who was at the ESPA meeting last Saturday representing Boardman. I spoke with him and also the NY DOT person who also covered this among other things to do with Amtrak Service in NY State..

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

It was being discussed at an Empire State Passenger Association meeting last weekend that $1.8 million a year could be saved (probably due to high CN track charges into Central Station) and the schedule could be speeded up by using the CPR route from Rouses Point to Montreal instead of switching to CN.

How many Amtrak passengers board and disembark at Montreal each year?

And will the average passenger find the location of the station Amtrak is considering switching to at least as convenient as the station Amtrak has been using for the last two decades?

 

[Steve4031]

This could be somewhat confusing for passengers who are used to using Central station. And it could be problematic to somebody who purchases their ticket on the internet with plans to pick it up at the station before boarding. I could see a few surprised/annoyed passengers making a dash by cab or metro to the other station. I was only in the other station once. IIRC correctly it is a few blocks from Central station.

 

[jis]

This could be somewhat confusing for passengers who are used to using Central station. And it could be problematic to somebody who purchases their ticket on the internet with plans to pick it up at the station before boarding. I could see a few surprised/annoyed passengers making a dash by cab or metro to the other station. I was only in the other station once. IIRC correctly it is a few blocks from Central station.

OTOH, if the cost reduction does not happen - one of the motivators for this potential move, then there may be no more Adirondack anymore, so getting confused about Central or Lucien L'Allier or Central will be moot. One will have to go and look for the bus station instead h34r: . The Adirondack is not quite out of the woods yet even for this year. It is fully funded through Sept 30th. Funding for it from New York state is up in the air 1st October onwards. Governor Paterson has proposed cutting funding for it by 50% in his budget.

Seriously, the ticket pickup thing is handled very easily by placing a Quick-Trak or two at Lucien L'Allier

 

[DaveKCMO]

so for those not in the know -- and i've taken the adirondack, so i'm quite curious -- this other station is at least centrally located? not much on wikipedia, but it's connected to the metro? seems with all this new [capital] money coming in that this savings would be the last thing they'd be pursuing?

 

[AlanB]

so for those not in the know -- and i've taken the adirondack, so i'm quite curious -- this other station is at least centrally located? not much on wikipedia, but it's connected to the metro? seems with all this new [capital] money coming in that this savings would be the last thing they'd be pursuing?

The other station is one Metro stop away from the current one and still downtown.

 

[tp49]

Lucien L'Allier is close to Gare Central as Alan said just one station further down on the metro. The only thing I can't remember as it's been almost seven years since I've been to Montreal and I can't remember what type of facility there is waiting room wise. Not that it matters too much and the waiting room does not have to be elaborate but considering how the winters are up there it should be heated and enclosed.

Funny, I joined this forum because of the trip to Montreal because I didn't know what to expect on the Adirondack. Time flies.

 

[NS VIA FAN]

The other station is one Metro stop away from the current one and still downtown.

Lucien L’Allier is an AMT (Agence Metropolitaine de Transport) commuter station so it lacks the services of Central Station. But it’s still a modern, attractive facility located on the concourse level of the Bell Centre (Hockey Arena) that was built on the approach to the old Windsor Station train shed. The waiting room has a high ceiling and bright with a glass wall fronting on the platforms providing a great view of the trains. There is a snack-bar and newsstand but just walk out the door and there are plenty of restaurants, bars and shops.

And to put the distance between the two stations in perspective, it’s a five minute walk that can be done completely indoors or two minute cab ride and just a close as having to go from say, Terminal A to Terminal B at a large airport.

Map Here: (Lucien L'Allier at left) (Gare Central at upper right)

http://www.stm.info/English/metro/Bonaventure.pdf

 

[jphjaxfl]

I traveled into Central Station on the Montrealer back in 1985 and out of Windsor on the Adirondak. Both Stations were convenient to where I was staying in Central Montreal and both stations had full amenities. With that amount of savings, this would seem like a positive move.

 

[Steve4031]

I have no problem with the move, I just was pointing out the possibility of a humorous scenario. In fact it might mean a ride to Montreal to get the new trackage.

How much time would be saved with this move? It would be great if the customs mess was moved to Montreal. This is a major cause of delays on this route.

 

[jis]

seems with all this new [capital] money coming in that this savings would be the last thing they'd be pursuing?

But this is about reducing the need for operating money. As you know there are strict rules that disallow use of capital money for operating purposes.

 

[jis]

How much time would be saved with this move? It would be great if the customs mess was moved to Montreal. This is a major cause of delays on this route.

Running time reduction will be 30 mins without moving border processing to Lucien L'Allier, and a total of about 2 hours if border processing is moved to LL.

NYS and Amtrak goal is to reduce the total running time of the Adirndack to 7 hours or a bit less. This involves additional trackwork between Schenectady and Rouse's Point, and certain amount of time reduction between NYP and SDY, including cutting down on the ALB stop a bit on the way back. On the way out it is already minimal.

 

[wayman]

The other station is one Metro stop away from the current one and still downtown.

Lucien L’Allier is an AMT (Agence Metropolitaine de Transport) commuter station so it lacks the services of Central Station. But it’s still a modern, attractive facility located on the concourse level of the Bell Centre (Hockey Arena) that was built on the approach to the old Windsor Station train shed. The waiting room has a high ceiling and bright with a glass wall fronting on the platforms providing a great view of the trains. There is a snack-bar and newsstand but just walk out the door and there are plenty of restaurants, bars and shops.

And to put the distance between the two stations in perspective, it’s a five minute walk that can be done completely indoors or two minute cab ride and just a close as having to go from say, Terminal A to Terminal B at a large airport.

Map Here: (Lucien L'Allier at left) (Gare Central at upper right)

http://www.stm.info/English/metro/Bonaventure.pdf

Wow, you just answered all of my questions about comparing the station facilities and locations, and given your answers--and the potential hour or more of time savings if customs and border control can be located right in Lucien L'Allier as is hoped--this move seems like it's absolutely the right thing to do. I can't think of any negatives here!

(The one other question I had was about whether this would make connections between Amtrak and VIA more tedious since the two railroads won't be serving the same station, but in thinking more about this there probably aren't any same-day connections to begin with, given the Adirondack's evening arrival and morning departure. And if anyone coming in on the Adirondack and going out on the Ocean or down the Ontario corridor has to overnight in Montreal already, then it makes no difference at all whether Amtrak and VIA are in the same or different train stations.)

 

[NS VIA FAN]

(The one other question I had was about whether this would make connections between Amtrak and VIA more tedious since the two railroads won't be serving the same station, but in thinking more about this there probably aren't any same-day connections to begin with, given the Adirondack's evening arrival and morning departure. And if anyone coming in on the Adirondack and going out on the Ocean or down the Ontario corridor has to overnight in Montreal already, then it makes no difference at all whether Amtrak and VIA are in the same or different train stations.)

A faster schedule with an earlier arrival and later departure would allow the Adirondack to have sameday VIA connections to/from Ottawa and Quebec City and the last evening train on the Kingston Sub. west toward Toronto. The Ocean might still be possible too.

The stop at suburban St. Lambert will be lost and it was a very convenient connecting point for the Ocean and Quebec City trains if anything was running late.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

But Lucien Allier is not Windsor station, and its not a nice historic property like Central.

 

[jis]

A faster schedule with an earlier arrival and later departure would allow the Adirondack to have sameday VIA connections to/from Ottawa and Quebec City and the last evening train on the Kingston Sub. west toward Toronto. The Ocean might still be possible too.
The stop at suburban St. Lambert will be lost and it was a very convenient connecting point for the Ocean and Quebec City trains if anything was running late.

I think schedule reliability will be critical for any connection to truly become possible. Remember pending track upgrades etc. the only real running time reduction is 30mins. The other 1.5 hours happens if border processing moves to LuLa. But then who knows how much time the border processors will take at LuLa to clear an individual. Will the amount of time taken by them be predictable enough to actually shoot for a connection out of Centrale? Hard to predict. Of course even if the train continued to got to Centrale moving border processing to Centrale would be impossible if the St, Lambert stops remains in place too. So for gaining the 1.5 hour reduction in running time that is now eaten up by border folks, St. Lambert will have to be dropped either way.
But again, remember that at the immediate present, this is primarily motivated by New York state trying to reduce its 403b bill for this train. As I have mentioned earlier and/or elsewhere, funding for this train is not in the bag past the end of September. At present Gov Paterson is planning to chop 50% from it, which will either discontinue it completely or cut it down to three times a week. There are many powerful forces working to reverse that, but New York politics at times can be quite unfathomable. One of the hopes is a quick changeover could reduce the impact of some amount of cut in its budget, should it come to pass.

 

[the_traveler]

It may be confusing for passengers for passengers connecting between VIA and Amtrak to switch between stations - not knowing or realizing in advance. Much like years ago when all trains from NYS (including the LSL) went into Grand Central in NY, but all other Amtrak trains left from NYP! h34r:

 

[Traingeek]

Would this happen at the Next Schedule change in April or at the earliest at the late October schedule change?

 

[NS VIA FAN]

It may be confusing for passengers for passengers connecting between VIA and Amtrak to switch between stations - not knowing or realizing in advance.....

Montreal is mainly O&D traffic.....very few connect. But if they do the stations are a five minute walk apart (that can be done indoors) or 2 minutes by cab....just as close as going from say, Terminal A to Terminal B at a major airport.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

It may be confusing for passengers for passengers connecting between VIA and Amtrak to switch between stations - not knowing or realizing in advance.....

Montreal is mainly O&D traffic.....very few connect. But if they do the stations are a five minute walk apart (that can be done indoors) or 2 minutes by cab....just as close as going from say, Terminal A to Terminal B at a major airport.

That sounds like in some ways it's an easier connection than getting from the Downeaster at North Station to the Orange Line and Green Line at North Station, which requires going outside.

 

[jis]

That sounds like in some ways it's an easier connection than getting from the Downeaster at North Station to the Orange Line and Green Line at North Station, which requires going outside.

It is actually astounding how far you can go in Montreal walking through covered walkways. LuLa to Central is small potatoes compared to how far you can walk without going outside.

 

[Neil_M]

But Lucien Allier is not Windsor station, and its not a nice historic property like Central.

So trains can only stop at nice historic properties?

 

[wayman]

But Lucien Allier is not Windsor station, and its not a nice historic property like Central.

So trains can only stop at nice historic properties?

You left out a few things: Trains can only stop at nice historic properties, must do so daily, and must be manufactured by the Budd Company.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Neil_M]

But Lucien Allier is not Windsor station, and its not a nice historic property like Central.

So trains can only stop at nice historic properties?

You left out a few things: Trains can only stop at nice historic properties, must do so daily, and must be manufactured by the Budd Company.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

All done whilst charging down the aisle at 60mph like an unstoppable man mountain...... :blink: