Adding frequency to Long Distance (LD) service

[Matthew H Fish]

This is mostly a theoretical question, but it has some real implications.

If you could take one Amtrak long distance route that has daily service, and double it, which one would you choose?
Presumably this second service would be at about the opposite time of as its current service, but not necessarily.

 

[John Bredin]

Lake Shore Ltd., as much to bring daytime service to Toledo & Cleveland as to better connect the major hubs of NYC and Chicago.

 

[jiml]

Lake Shore Ltd., as much to bring daytime service to Toledo & Cleveland as to better connect the major hubs of NYC and Chicago.

This has been analyzed before and is almost the perfect answer.

 

[ascii42]

The Crescent, as currently travel between Atlanta and cities in South and North Carolina involves middle of the night departures and/or arrivals. Though the proposed Atlanta to Charlotte (or better yet, Raleigh) corridor would also fix that.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The issue with the Lake Shore Ltd it is a 19-20 hour run. Adding two trains in each direction per day for maximum coverage would work best. However just one additional train each way, makes it into a dilemma. Which has is no simple solution on departure and arrival times that works well for all stops. Several ideas have been thought up, but this route is so long that I would think three departs from each terminal ever day would be best. This way you can pick the arrival and departure times that fit your needs were ever you are.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

The Empire Builder would also benefit from have another run on the opposite side of the clock - as much as I love passenger rail, I don't know that I'd take it to Spokane given the middle of the night arrival and departure. And the St. Paul times are less than optimal too. However, it would also be tempting to throw some wrinkles into the routing as well to get Madison and Yakima onboard, and maybe southern MT as well, but then it's really a different train. They almost all would benefit, I know the Zephyr hits the scenic bits in daylight but I forget when it hits the various cities on its route. And I'd be happy to see the Canadian get back to being a daily, although when I was young Saskatoon got two trains/day at certain times of year. I'd have to see really detailed seat counts to know if full route doubling would be the way to go for LD or just for certain segments.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

A 2nd train on just the bay area to Portland &/or Seattle part of the Coast Starlight might make sense, make departures northbound more convenient and predictable. Also, if we're going to double up service then picking the bigger gap on a single trip with guaranteed connection should always be an option. I'm not sure the current computer algorithm would always give you that.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

The issue with the Lake Shore Ltd it is a 19-20 hour run. Adding two trains in each direction per day for maximum coverage would work best. However just one additional train each way, makes it into a dilemma. Which has is no simple solution on departure and arrival times that works well for all stops.

It is true that there isn't a perfect solution to when line up arrival and departure times for all stops, but just about any time would be better than Cleveland at 2 AM or whatever it is currently.

Several ideas have been thought up, but this route is so long that I would think three departs from each terminal ever day would be best. This way you can pick the arrival and departure times that fit your needs were ever you are.

Compared to most of Amtrak's long distance routes, the Lake Shore Limited is quite short. But the thing about the Lake Shore Limited is that the route is really closer to corridor service than a Long Distance Route.

 

[west point]

The Crescent, as currently travel between Atlanta and cities in South and North Carolina involves middle of the night departures and/or arrivals. Though the proposed Atlanta to Charlotte (or better yet, Raleigh) corridor would also fix that.

That would only really works if the present #20 returns to a departure time from ATL at 1800 -1900 - 7PM. Those times would then be more of a 12 hour separation times.

The records of SOU ridership going north and today seems to indicate that ATL <> CLT potential ridership would be very high especially routing the day train Raleigh - Richmond WASH. It could even become an extension of a present NEC train at Richmond.? Greensborough - CVS is a very thin potential riders. CVS <> WAS adequately covered by Crescent, 2 - Roanoke trains and Cardinal which might become daily.

 

[railiner]

A second daily New York to Chicago train gets my vote, except for a twist…run New York to Cleveland portion via Pittsburgh instead of Buffalo.

Perhaps extend an Empire Service train from Buffalo to Cleveland to connect with it…

 

[como]

Two suggestions for additions to trains in the midwest. Both we expand services that already have high demand.

An additional Chicago to Kansas City round trip on the Southwest Chief route, leaving Chicago around 7 a.m. and leaving Kansas City around 3 p.m.

An additional Chicago to Denver round trip on the California Zephyr route, with a later departure from Chicago, around 5 p.m. and an earlier departure from Denver 3 or 4 p.m. This has would be similar to the Denver Zephyr and has been mentioned a few times by others.

 

[MARC Rider]

I once saw a proposed timetable for the NY-Chicago line with increased service. There was one additional through train, plus, I think another one that ran through Pittsburgh, Harrisburg and Philly, but I believe that the other trains did not go all the way through -- I think there was a Chicago-Cleveland train and a New York-Cleveland train. I think that sort of thing is preferable, because why bother to service the ultimate endpoints if they leave or arrive at some wildly inconvenient hour, yet the intermediate points need service that all runs within normal hours. Not every train on a long-distance route has to be a full long-distance train.

 

[railiner]

I once saw a proposed timetable for the NY-Chicago line with increased service. There was one additional through train, plus, I think another one that ran through Pittsburgh, Harrisburg and Philly, but I believe that the other trains did not go all the way through -- I think there was a Chicago-Cleveland train and a New York-Cleveland train. I think that sort of thing is preferable, because why bother to service the ultimate endpoints if they leave or arrive at some wildly inconvenient hour, yet the intermediate points need service that all runs within normal hours. Not every train on a long-distance route has to be a full long-distance train.

I like spacing out multiple trains on a route evenly…2 a day, 12 hours apart; 3 a day, 8 hours apart, etc; with perhaps a few “tweaks” where necessary.
In that way, all points should have at least some decent hours of service.

 

[Qapla]

The Silvers could use an adjustment to their schedules since both NB trains tend to both be overnight trains - the Star from Orlando through north Florida and North Carolina and the Meteor from Jacksonville through Virginia

 

[jis]

The Silvers could use an adjustment to their schedules since both NB trains tend to both be overnight trains - the Star from Orlando through north Florida and North Carolina and the Meteor from Jacksonville through Virginia

Or alternatively get a second frequency on one or both routes, which really is the subject of this thread, not adjustment of existing schedules. The old Silver Palm that ran to Miami served that purpose on the Charleston route. Theoretically, when miracles start happening NC and SC could jointly run a train from Raleigh to Savannah or even JAX roughly speaking departing Raleigh in the morning and arriving JAX in the evening, roughly a 8am to 6pm sort of train in both directions. Or even perhaps extend to Orlando arriving 11pm-ish and departing 7am-ish into Raleigh at 8pm or so.

 

[railiner]

Or alternatively get a second frequency on one or both routes, which really is the subject of this thread, not adjustment of existing schedules. The old Silver Palm that ran to Miami served that purpose on the Charleston route. Theoretically, when miracles start happening NC and SC could jointly run a train from Raleigh to Savannah or even JAX roughly speaking departing Raleigh in the morning and arriving JAX in the evening, roughly a 8am to 6pm sort of train in both directions. Or even perhaps extend to Orlando arriving 11pm-ish and departing 7am-ish into Raleigh at 8pm or so.

For a start, they should extend the Palmetto to Miami, running overnight on the extended portion…

 

[jis]

For a start, they should extend the Palmetto to Miami, running overnight on the extended portion…

They should be able to do it via Orlando. Unfortunately they cannot do it via Ocala anymore due to agreement between FDOT and CSX when CSX conveyed the Deland - Poinciana segment to FDOT (CFRC). Back when the Silver Palm v2 operated it was the one that served Tampa, while both the Star and Meteor followed the current routing of the Meteor through Florida. Unfortunately its timing will be Oh-dark-thirty in Orlando, but that should be fine since the other two trains serve it at good time.

 

[GDRRiley]

I'd argue all LD route should be 2x daily as a base spaced 12 hours apart. Some of the shorter east coast routes could be 3-4x daily if that was viewed as important.

 

[Northwestern]

I would love to see 2 trains per day, in each direction, on a long distance Amtrak route. If double frequency was to come about, there would obviously be concerns over cost, farebox recovery, and potential ridership. You would have to juggle between desired times of departure and arrival at various towns and cities. Also, times for passing through scenic areas along the way.

I would pick the Coast Starlight as a candidate for double frequency. I think it could draw a good ridership with the many cities, towns, and communities along its route. I also like both a morning and evening train for each direction. However, that could be difficult.

For example, if a 2nd CS #11 southbound left Seattle in the early to mid evening, it would be very late getting into Portland and Eugene. If CS #14 northbound arrived into the Bay Area around 9-10 AM (starting out at 9-10 PM from LA) , it would be great for hopping the northbound train from the Bay Area and for arrivals at northern Calif. stops, north of Sacramento, at reasonable hours. But, chances are it would be dark from Klamath Falls to Eugene, one of the most scenic stretches along the entire Starlight route. Also, a very early morning arrival into Portland.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Of course there are a lot of schedule changes that could be made, or new routes, and of course if we had more than doubled service on all routes, that would be great as well.
But I wanted to narrow the question down---what single route would change the most by doubling its schedule?
For example, even though I use the Coast Starlight all the time, I don't know if doubling its schedule would really bring in many new riders, because the most inconvenient part of its schedule are currently in the towns with the fewest riders.
On the other hand, a train like the Lake Shore Limited or the Crescent serves some big cities in the middle of the night. There would be a lot more potential riders at 2 PM in Cleveland than in Redding.

 

[Qapla]

Since there are effectively three trains running between Florida and the NE area and there does not seem to be any problem filling them - an additional train on one of those routes (a second auto train would be interesting) could prove to be very advantageous

 

[Willbridge]

Ever since popularity of the Coast Starlight became well known, there have been discussions of running 2x daily SEA<>LAX trains, with the second train about 12 hours off of the current schedule. It puts Portland in the wee hours, but with the Cascades available that isn't as big an issue. Its PDX<>SEA times would complement the overall Cascades service. The main problem would be handling the wave of unhoused people if Portland Union Station were to be open all night. Someone even suggested skipping Portland in the night and providing a bus connection to Vancouver, WA.

In the current environment, though, I'd vote for additional service CHI<>NYP. That could let the Lake Cities get back to an earlier departure from Chicago, with a second train batting clean-up later in the evening. It would reduce the number of hotel stays in Chicago.

And an alternative approach would be to overlap long-distance trains with corridor trains, as the Pacific Coast states have almost completely done. That would be easier to work out with the Class Ones (ideological problems excepted) and more reliable for business travel.

 

[west point]

After further consideration it becomes obvious that a second Crescent depends alot on how the STB finally rules on the CP -KCS merger. If approval how the Meridian speedway is allocated.

With CP retaining the Meridian - Marshall the proposed DAL/FTW <> ATL has a very high likely hood of being started as soon as CHI <> MSP second train is digested. Then will it start as joining the Crescent at Meridian? Or will it run separately overnight from Shreveport <> ATL? Then continue as the day train to CLT - Raleigh - Richmond WAS ?

If overnight the DAL train could have a stub to NOL from MEI.. That would mitigate the annual NS daytime work window cancellations in Jan & Feb. The stub from NOL would allow for connections from the Sunset, Baton Rouge, and maybe a Mobile train?

Other STB rulings make for too many possibilities

 

[Seaboarder3023]

Since there are effectively three trains running between Florida and the NE area and there does not seem to be any problem filling them - an additional train on one of those routes (a second auto train would be interesting) could prove to be very advantageous

I.E. reinstate the Champion. I honestly feel like there should be four NY - FL trains: The Silver Meteor and Silver Star running the S-Line through the Carolinas and Florida (their original route), and the Champion and Palmetto running the A-Line through the Carolinas and Florida (also their original route), with all three splitting in Jacksonville into east and west coast sections. The Meteor and Champion would run through the Carolinas overnight, and the Star and Palmetto during the day. With the LD Study, this could maybe be a possibility.

 

[Northwestern]

I like the idea of overlapping corridor trains with long distance trains. Especially if some of the corridor or regional trains could have their schedules changed or expanded to facilitate transfers. Although I wouldn't expect it to ever happen, what if the Cascades could go from Eugene to Medford to Klamath Falls. Is there track along that route?