Adding frequency to Long Distance (LD) service

[danasgoodstuff]

So with all these suggestions, would it be better to run a second train on a long distance route on the same route as the first, with “economy of scale” savings, using all existing stations and other infrastructure, and at the same time offering more choices for on line passengers, or would it be better to use a more or less parallel alternate route, to tap into more markets?
For example, run a second frequency on the current CZ route, or run it via the UP from Chicago all the way, including via the Feather River Canyon?

It might not be such a total dichotomy, a North Coast Hiawatha would only be a new route between Spokane and Fargo (or it could get Yakima too). And there are others where the new service could double up on parts and hit new territory on others. The Pioneer would be mostly unserved cities but could connect or double up in various places. I think shorter long distance might be a better option to max new service and minimize the LD lateness issue and require fewer new trainsets and crew.

Even with the constraints of existing RoW and Rail, stations and other limitations, there are many possibilities to serve the shifting demographics.

 

[uncleboots]

Like the San Francisco Chief?

Yes, Exactly

 

[railiner]

It might not be such a total dichotomy, a North Coast Hiawatha would only be a new route between Spokane and Fargo (or it could get Yakima too). And there are others where the new service could double up on parts and hit new territory on others

East of Fargo, it could run on a completely separate route, too…

 

[Herb]

So with all these suggestions, would it be better to run a second train on a long distance route on the same route as the first, with “economy of scale” savings, using all existing stations and other infrastructure, and at the same time offering more choices for on line passengers, or would it be better to use a more or less parallel alternate route, to tap into more markets?
For example, run a second frequency on the current CZ route, or run it via the UP from Chicago all the way, including via the Feather River Canyon?

I’ve been speaking about a daylight train from Sacramento to Eugene via the I5 corridor. It would leave SacValletStation and turn north at Davis, following the west side SP track which is under utilized. At Tehama Y North of Corning it would move to UPSP track. Red Bluff, Redding, Dunsmuir are all stops on the Coast Starlight but in the very early morning. Just north Of the city of Mt Shasta, the route would move to CORP tracks, the original SP route to Eugene, via Siskiyou Summit, Ashland, Medford, Grants Pass, Roseburg, cottage grove and finally Eugene. It’s a beautiful route. The I5 corridor has has thousands of potential riders. It could be something like the Swiss Railroads Bernena Express.

 

[Mailliw]

Assuming availability of equipment would it me feasible to ad a 2nd frequency of the Coast Starlight that ran overnight between LA and the Bay Area then during the daytime to Seattle?

 

[danasgoodstuff]

East of Fargo, it could run on a completely separate route, too…

It Wouldn't necessarily even have to go to Fargo at all, but I would think Fargo to billings would have some traffic potential, probably more than any alternative routing.

 

[Septa9739]

In light of the new LD analyses from the FRA. I propose the following improvements to trains that already run on existing infrastructure. With these the question is how difficult the Class I’s are feeling on a particular day. I have thoughts about routes with new route mileage, but I want to think more about before I share. In no particular order:

1. Daily Cardinal and Daily Sunset Limited (at least LAX-SAS). I really don’t understand why anyone ever thought tri-weekly was a good idea. I guess as opposed to truncation or termination. I wouldn’t be shocked if operating ratios doubled.
2. Broadway Ltd Departing NYP around 15:00, PHL around 17:00, PGH around 0:00 as a section of the Capitol Limited. Then originating CHI 17/18:40, PGH 4/5:30, PHL 12/13:00, NYP 14/15:00, earlier if NEC-CHI is estimated to be especially strong. Earlier would also help the connection to the Southbound Silver Star. This run should never have been cancelled in the first place. The numbers for Chicago to NEC travel are not impressive, despite the Lakeshore and the Capitol seeming to be perpetually full. CHI-NYP volume is only about 150% of CHI-PGH volume, not including transfers. The Broadway would do a lot to strengthen the whole system vis-à-vis connections at Chicago, make PHL-CHI a real possibility by saving 4-5 hours and a change, help the PGH-CHI capacity issue, and give LNC and HAR direct service to Chicago, which would be well used.
3. The Champion departing NYP 20:00, WAS 0:00, RGH 6:00, JAX 16:00, ORL 19:00, terminating TPA 22:00. The originating TPA 9:00, ORL 11:00, JAX 15:00, RGH 0:00, WAS 6:00, NYP 11:00. This train would complement a very well used segment of the Silver Service in Florida and provide what I think would be a well used overnight service NEC-RGH even though the times aren’t perfect. The NEC-Florida trains are very busy and only going to get more so.
4. Coast Daylight depart LAX 0:00, SAC 14:00, PDX 6:00, SEA 10:00. The departing SEA 20:00, PDX 0:00, SAC 21:00, LAX 11:00. This would allow two overnight sections. I think LAX-Bay Area would be very strong. It would also facilitate connections to the CZ, SWC, and Cascades that presently don’t exist.
5. Panama Limited departing CHI 11:00, MEM 21:30, arriving NOL 8:00. Then departing NOL 0:00, MEM 8:00, CHI 19:00 allowing new connections and serving the opposite sleeper market.
6. Salt Lake Ltd Departing CHI 22:00, OMA 7:00, DEN 16:00, GJT 0:00, SLC 7:00, returning SLC 20:30, DEN 12:00, OMA 22:15, CHI 8:00, providing additional service over the most constrained portions of the California Zephyr route, aiming to better serve CHI-OMA and DEN-SLC, while also allowing new mobility within Colorado.

 

[Northwestern]

Assuming availability of equipment would it me feasible to ad a 2nd frequency of the Coast Starlight that ran overnight between LA and the Bay Area then during the daytime to Seattle?

I would like to see any sort of passenger train, during daylight hours, from the Bay Area north. A second train, leaving LA late at night, would provide a daylight trip from the Bay Area and further north. I like Septa 9739's suggestion about leaving LA at midnight, but maybe it would also work if it left, say, at 9-10 PM and not as late as midnight (?).

The Sacramento Northern Railway provided passenger train service from the Bay Area to Sacramento to Chico (in Northern Calif.) up until 1941. I believe it was a daylight run.

https://is.gd/r7l8X9
I read, a while back, that Caltrains was considering a run over to Sacramento then further north. Possibly as far north as Redding. I believe the consideration never got off the ground as it was decided that the route wouldn't attract enough passengers.

How about a separate Amtrak train from the Bay Area to Klamath Falls? It could leave in the early morning and arrive in Klamath by 6-7 PM. If a link to the Starlight was needed, it would mean an overnight in Klamath Falls, however. .

 

[Willbridge]

In light of the new LD analyses from the FRA. I propose the following improvements to trains that already run on existing infrastructure. With these the question is how difficult the Class I’s are feeling on a particular day. I have thoughts about routes with new route mileage, but I want to think more about before I share. In no particular order:

1. Daily Cardinal and Daily Sunset Limited (at least LAX-SAS). I really don’t understand why anyone ever thought tri-weekly was a good idea. I guess as opposed to truncation or termination. I wouldn’t be shocked if operating ratios doubled.
2. Broadway Ltd Departing NYP around 15:00, PHL around 17:00, PGH around 0:00 as a section of the Capitol Limited. Then originating CHI 17/18:40, PGH 4/5:30, PHL 12/13:00, NYP 14/15:00, earlier if NEC-CHI is estimated to be especially strong. Earlier would also help the connection to the Southbound Silver Star. This run should never have been cancelled in the first place. The numbers for Chicago to NEC travel are not impressive, despite the Lakeshore and the Capitol seeming to be perpetually full. CHI-NYP volume is only about 150% of CHI-PGH volume, not including transfers. The Broadway would do a lot to strengthen the whole system vis-à-vis connections at Chicago, make PHL-CHI a real possibility by saving 4-5 hours and a change, help the PGH-CHI capacity issue, and give LNC and HAR direct service to Chicago, which would be well used.
3. The Champion departing NYP 20:00, WAS 0:00, RGH 6:00, JAX 16:00, ORL 19:00, terminating TPA 22:00. The originating TPA 9:00, ORL 11:00, JAX 15:00, RGH 0:00, WAS 6:00, NYP 11:00. This train would complement a very well used segment of the Silver Service in Florida and provide what I think would be a well used overnight service NEC-RGH even though the times aren’t perfect. The NEC-Florida trains are very busy and only going to get more so.
4. Coast Daylight depart LAX 0:00, SAC 14:00, PDX 6:00, SEA 10:00. The departing SEA 20:00, PDX 0:00, SAC 21:00, LAX 11:00. This would allow two overnight sections. I think LAX-Bay Area would be very strong. It would also facilitate connections to the CZ, SWC, and Cascades that presently don’t exist.
5. Panama Limited departing CHI 11:00, MEM 21:30, arriving NOL 8:00. Then departing NOL 0:00, MEM 8:00, CHI 19:00 allowing new connections and serving the opposite sleeper market.
6. Salt Lake Ltd Departing CHI 22:00, OMA 7:00, DEN 16:00, GJT 0:00, SLC 7:00, returning SLC 20:30, DEN 12:00, OMA 22:15, CHI 8:00, providing additional service over the most constrained portions of the California Zephyr route, aiming to better serve CHI-OMA and DEN-SLC, while also allowing new mobility within Colorado.

Item 4 would be better in the Northwest than the 12-hour offset usually proposed for a second Coast train between LAX and SEA. However, it would work best if the midday SEA<>VAC trains were restored.

Item 6 would work differently if the Pioneer were run on a two-night schedule from Seattle/Portland via SLC and the Moffat line for DEN. That meshes with a DEN<day>OMA<night>CHI train discussed at various times as a secondary service with great CHI connections. SLC needs a station, DEN has one. A big part of the coach load on Trains 5/6 turns over at Denver. Note that the last time Amtrak did a pro-LD train study (1991) the proposed second CHI<>DEN train ran via Ames.

 

[GDRRiley]

2 daily Auto Trains would work.

The terminals for that are pretty limited and rolling stock is even more. They could get a new custom fleet for it based on the ultra domes but that seems highly unlikely. Right now from 10am-5pm the terminals are in use. the afternoon one could come in at around 5PM and then turn and go back north at 12AM. a 10PM cutoff could be popular

 

[rookzie]

Lake Shore Ltd., as much to bring daytime service to Toledo & Cleveland as to better connect the major hubs of NYC and Chicago.

(almost 2 weeks later...)
A second and third LSL could enrich connection options within an Ohio "3C+D" regional sub-network, with its own twice-daily (at the very least) runs along each corridor leg. In a similar manner, it could augment connectivity with existing Empire Service. Before any LSL cloning could become tenable, the freight bottleneck(s) east of the Illinois State line would need to be dealt with.

I'd love to see a second Mid-America north-south run Chicago-NOLA, instead of a proposal some five or so years ago by some local officials to extend the "Saluki"-"Illini" regionals to Memphis. To do an extension would be counterproductive to the demands of the current regional corridor. Then too, operational quirks with the CN need to be addressed as well. But this is just a wish-list of pipe dreams.

 

[GDRRiley]

I read, a while back, that Caltrains was considering a run over to Sacramento then further north. Possibly as far north as Redding. I believe the consideration never got off the ground as it was decided that the route wouldn't attract enough passengers.

Theres a proposed Chico to Sacramento train under the name North Valley rail. Its got a lot of shortcomings in the plan.

How about a separate Amtrak train from the Bay Area to Klamath Falls? It could leave in the early morning and arrive in Klamath by 6-7 PM. If a link to the Starlight was needed, it would mean an overnight in Klamath Falls, however. .

At that point your restarting a cut back Shasta Daylight, if you keep it to within California and do a Sac to Somewhere north train that wouldn't be a LD troute but a lot easier to get started as you just need state support.

Assuming availability of equipment would it me feasible to ad a 2nd frequency of the Coast Starlight that ran overnight between LA and the Bay Area then during the daytime to Seattle?

The coast line really needs the proposed upgrades to reduce travel times some but more importantly make it consistent. The lack of CTC from SLO to Salinas is a problem. SLO to Goelta is getting CTC finished soon.

 

[user 31866]

I’ve been speaking about a daylight train from Sacramento to Eugene via the I5 corridor. <Snip> Just north Of the city of Mt Shasta, the route would move to CORP tracks, the original SP route to Eugene, via Siskiyou Summit, Ashland, Medford, Grants Pass, Roseburg, cottage grove and finally Eugene. It’s a beautiful route.

I was chatting with someone from CORP a few months ago: Roseburg to Ashland -- just to get the track up to 35 mph passenger specs -- ~$1million per mile. Granted, even an Ashland - Eugene DMU service would be nice, but...

 

[danasgoodstuff]

I was chatting with someone from CORP a few months ago: Roseburg to Ashland -- just to get the track up to 35 mph passenger specs -- ~$1million per mile. Granted, even an Ashland - Eugene DMU service would be nice, but...

I don't see passenger rail over Siskiyou again ever; Ashland to Eugene, maybe.

 

[Chris I]

I don't see passenger rail over Siskiyou again ever; Ashland to Eugene, maybe.

That stretch of I-5 is generally uncongested (outside of big winter storms), so it would make sense to improve intercity bus service. That rail line is in very rough shape.

 

[John819]

All these proposals will require a large increase in the Amtrak fleet size, and that gets into the design questions discussed on a separate thread. Might we see these in a decade? Perhaps, or perhaps not.

 

[GDRRiley]

I was chatting with someone from CORP a few months ago: Roseburg to Ashland -- just to get the track up to 35 mph passenger specs -- ~$1million per mile. Granted, even an Ashland - Eugene DMU service would be nice, but...

1M a mile should be getting you closer to 60mph. Not sure the exact threshold but to reach 60mph you need ABS or PTC. and above 60mph PTC is a must without waver.

I don't see passenger rail over Siskiyou again ever; Ashland to Eugene, maybe.

I could see it as a Rocky Mountaineer type train but a normal amtrak train is unlikely

All these proposals will require a large increase in the Amtrak fleet size, and that gets into the design questions discussed on a separate thread. Might we see these in a decade? Perhaps, or perhaps not.

Amtrak right now if they just fixed cars could start a few routes but most of what they have spare for superliners is transition dorms, with stuff like sleepers, diners, lounge, ect each being less than 10 Inactive.

 

[west point]

I can imagine a daytime train north from ATL - Greensboro - Raleigh - Richmond - WAS. It would be a night train from ATL - Meridian - then to Marshall, Tx and onto Ft. Worth, If the train ran a stub to / from NOL then the Jan - Feb NS cancellations could be mitigated.

Now if a second train connecting with Crescent at MEI <> FTW connections could be made for passengers going west from FTW on the Eagle daily to LAX.

As a bonus a Stub - Sunset From SAS - NOL - MEI would connect to second train at MEI both ways. Leaves NOL at night to connect at MEI. Southbound arrives NOL at dawn and continues on present Sunset schedule to SAS to meet Eagle to NOL

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Broadway Ltd Departing NYP around 15:00, PHL around 17:00, PGH around 0:00 as a section of the Capitol Limited. Then originating CHI 17/18:40, PGH 4/5:30, PHL 12/13:00, NYP 14/15:00, earlier if NEC-CHI is estimated to be especially strong. Earlier would also help the connection to the Southbound Silver Star. This run should never have been cancelled in the first place. The numbers for Chicago to NEC travel are not impressive, despite the Lakeshore and the Capitol seeming to be perpetually full. CHI-NYP volume is only about 150% of CHI-PGH volume, not including transfers. The Broadway would do a lot to strengthen the whole system vis-à-vis connections at Chicago, make PHL-CHI a real possibility by saving 4-5 hours and a change, help the PGH-CHI capacity issue, and give LNC and HAR direct service to Chicago, which would be well used.

You had me at "Broadway Limited"

Certainly the idea of a through branch attaching to the Capitol Limited has been discussed in the PRIAA's before. They can certainly just keep the current Pennsylvanian schedule or even better adjust the current Pennsylvanian to reduce the gap between the trains, especially westbound and start a second Pennsylvanian (they are discussing it anyway). Catching the southbound Silver Star in Philadelphia would be almost impossible, it leaves PHL now at 12:36pm although catching the Silver Meteor would be a possibility. I don't know how valuable the eastbound transfer in Philadelphia to Florida trains would be, anyone west of Pittsburgh can use the Capitol Limited and anyone east of Pittsburgh can use the Pennsylvanian (Harrisburg and East can also use Keystone trains).

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If we're talking about LA to Bay Area service, I would like to see service to San Francisco and not just San Jose, Oakland, Emeryville, etc. I'm not particularly interested in additional service up to Seattle. There's already a train from California to Seattle. There's zero Amtrak service to San Francisco. Amtrak Thruway buses are just another hassle. There's no reason Amtrak can't just go from San Jose to San Fran.

 

[Septa9739]

I think service to San Francisco would definitely be a good idea, but I’m not sure that I’d want it in lieu of service to Sacramento, Portland, and Seattle. Note that per RPA, the second, fifth, eighth, and tenth busiest city pairs are travel CA-OR/WA. That’s not the be all end all because it could just be indicative of an inefficiency in service to a particular place (which there certainly is here) but I think the point is worth consideration. Maybe cut cars at San Jose off of the proposed Coast Daylight would work here. That would also help justify pushing the proposed midnight departure earlier. I think overnight is really the only justifiable way to serve LA-San Francisco due to the uncompetitive travel time.

 

[NorthShore]

It seems statistics suggest the answer should be City of New Orleans!

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...-long-distance-service-yields-wealth-of-data/

 

[Willbridge]

It seems statistics suggest the answer should be City of New Orleans!

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...-long-distance-service-yields-wealth-of-data/

Effective December 1968 the Illinois Central still had three trains a day from Chicago to Memphis, with the City of New Orleans and the Panama Limited continuing to New Orleans. That was at a time when passenger trains were supposed to disappear. (Paul Reistrup was Veep of Passenger Services.)

How about the extension of Trains 391/392 to Memphis, which has been floated before, and a 7 AM from Jackson to New Orleans, returning at 6 PM? Of course, doctrine says that these are State problems, but the numbers suggest that there is a potential.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

It seems statistics suggest the answer should be City of New Orleans!

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...-long-distance-service-yields-wealth-of-data/

Interesting that Birmingham-NOLA is #2....

 

[Northwestern]

Effective December 1968 the Illinois Central still had three trains a day from Chicago to Memphis, with the City of New Orleans and the Panama Limited continuing to New Orleans. That was at a time when passenger trains were supposed to disappear. (Paul Reistrup was Veep of Passenger Services.)

How about the extension of Trains 391/392 to Memphis, which has been floated before, and a 7 AM from Jackson to New Orleans, returning at 6 PM? Of course, doctrine says that these are State problems, but the numbers suggest that there is a potential.

Is there anyway to get an Amtrak train to Nashville? Could it connect with the City of New Orleans at Memphis? I don't think the Nashville to Atlanta proposal will ever happen.