Airline food vs. Amtrak's flex

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Most coach passengers on US domestic flights don't get meals included in the fare, and there are limited options for sale. But they still serve food on intercontinental flights. Here's an example from my 2017 trip to China on United Airlines:



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This was lunch/dinner out of Dulles. I think the meat was chicken. They had open bar service of beer and wine. You had to pay for the hard stuff. The beer selection was decent and included some craft brews. The wine was plonk, but a glass or two helped relax me enough to get some sleep on the 12 hour flight.

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This was the midnight snack. Thinnest slice of turkey I've even seen.

They served a breakfast when it started getting light. I didn't take a picture. It was a sort of omelet, which was barely edible, which is more than one can say about the "breakfast" they served before arrival on the return trip.

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This is what they served us for dinner on departure during the return trip. It was barely edible, and it was clear that the commissary that United uses in Beijing provides worse food to the coach passengers than what was provided by the commissary at Dulles. Fortunately, one of my colleagues on this trip, who did the trip a lot and had status and thus was sitting up front, had a bunch of extra free drink coupons that he passed around to us. This allowed me to get a few shots of the hard stuff and anaesthetize my senses. The "breakfast" they served us on arrival (local time was about 6 PM) was some sort of egg and sausage concoction that was so indescribably bad that I didn't bother to eat it, something I've never had to do with flex food on Amtrak. (Though I did pass up the omelet when I had that kosher meal on the Lakeshore Limited.) I wasn't too hungry for long, though. After we landed, I spent the night at the on-site hotel at Dulles Airport (A throwback 1970s style motel with reasonable prices for it being on-site at a major airport) and had a good stiff Manhattan and the humus plate at the bar.

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Here's my first-ever flex meal, on the Capitol Limited at the end of October 2019. Despite the unappealing presentation, it was OK, though I was starting to develop Bell's palsy, and thus the tastebuds in half my mouth weren't functioning properly.
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Here's the flex dinner (lunch and dinner the next day) on the Cardinal on my return trip in November 2019. The attendant tried to make presentations as good as it could possibly be under the circumstances. Of course, even before flex, the Cardinal always had a simplified menu, as it was prepared in an Amfleet cafe car.

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The was the Cajun shrimp main course. It was surprisingly spicy. On this trip, I found out that the flex passengers only get one free wine for the whole trip, so not wine for me for lunch and dinner the next day. Notice that they had nicer looking plastic fake silverware than what was served up on the Capitol, and these trips were taken within a week of each other.

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Here was the flex breakfast on the Cardinal. A fruit cup, oatmeal and yoghurt, which is not bad, except that they portion sizes were ridiculously small. Fortunately, the sleeper was half full (or maybe less), so the attendant let me have seconds on everything.

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Pandemic -era flex breakfast on the Capitol in November 2021. Not the best French toast I've ever had, it was a little overcooked and tough.

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Flex dinner on the Capitol, November 2023. I had spent the two weeks on the Canadian with real old-fashioned dining car food and the Empire Builder with Amtrak Traditional dining. This was a bit of a letdown, but still better than what United Airlines served me on the Beijing flight.

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Here was my last meal on my Canadian trip, the Amtrak flex pancakes on the Capitol Limited. Don't get too excited about the 100% maple syrup. That was from the previous morning, as I was given access to the "elite" lounge at the J.W. Marriott Hotel in Chicago on the basis of my Bonvoy Gold membership level. (It pays to get their credit card, I got 3 free nights, which saved me about $700 in hotel bills on the trip, plus enough credit "nights" added to my hotel stays to bump me up to the Gold level. I've also noticed they've been giving me slightly better rooms, too.) The pancakes were a disappointment, as they sort of crumbled, not what you expect from a pancake. I mean, it was edible, but a bit weird.

Now I haven't flown overseas since 2017, but on my experience, I think the flex meal beats the stuff United Airlines was feeding us. Just my opinion.
 
In my experience Domestic First Class has better food than Flex but not as good as Amtrak Traditional dining. And of course, presentation is much better than Amtrak Flex. And of course.. unlimited drinks.

Even domestic coach on all the major airlines offers free soda, juice, coffee, and water as well as free snacks. While it's nothing to write home about it's more than Amtrak Long Distance coach receives. And actually... better than Business Class on Amtrak receives on all but the Surfliners.
 
Even domestic coach on all the major airlines offers free soda, juice, coffee, and water as well as free snacks. While it's nothing to write home about it's more than Amtrak Long Distance coach receives. And actually... better than Business Class on Amtrak receives on all but the Surfliners.
Why should Amtrak long distance coach passengers get complementary items? If you take into account what one can purchase in the cafe there are way more options than what's available on domestic coach. You're paying for it one way or the other. Amtrak long distance coach fares are highly subisidzed - so food for purchase seems like the appropriate approach.
 
Flying between most Amtrak cities takes a few hours or less so there's not a compelling reason to serve meals even in First Class. A hungry flyer is probably visiting an actual restaurant in or near an airport rather than eating on board. How or why Amtrak domestic sleeper service would compete with flying coach to Asia remains a bit of a mystery to me.

"I think the meat was chicken" and "it was a sort of omelet" did not make me salivate to book a trip to China on United.
United coach meals to/from Asia are pretty bad, but they seem to be exiting the Chinese market with an 80% reduction in frequencies.
 
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Why should Amtrak long distance coach passengers get complementary items? If you take into account what one can purchase in the cafe there are way more options than what's available on domestic coach. You're paying for it one way or the other. Amtrak long distance coach fares are highly subisidzed - so food for purchase seems like the appropriate approach.
Why should Amtrak Sleeper Passengers get complementary items? Those fares are also highly subsidized.

If I get a free soda and snack on Delta, it doesn't seem like a crazy idea that I would get the same on Amtrak.
 
Why should Amtrak Sleeper Passengers get complementary items? Those fares are also highly subsidized.

If I get a free soda and snack on Delta, it doesn't seem like a crazy idea that I would get the same on Amtrak.
Sleeper fares are market and demand based and priced based on what the market will bear. This is why people are complaining so much about what the sleeper fares are. Coach fares are kept relatively flat to keep the coach seats relatively accessible as part of their essential service mission on the national network. The fact that the train itself doesn't make money is of course another matter. But that's an Apples and oranges comparison - people are paying a massive amount more for sleeper accommodations. If you want to make the argument that a premium service shouldn't be offered unless the train is profitable go nuts. But the pricing scheme is completely different.
 
I think another thing I'd say is this. Don't get me wrong - I'm not morally dead set against the idea. I just think sometimes with some of these things related to OBS it's about choosing your battles. One thing with F&B is that as long as threads exist here about food and dining someone will have something in the fine details to complain about or think it should be done differently - mainly because we all have different expectations, different preferences, etc. It's something that's highly variable with peoples' personal preferences. So you certainly can feel the way you do about the soda or snack, but another coach passenger may say I'd rather the coach fares be as low as possible and then I can decide on board if I want to pay for a coke or a bag of chips. The cafe car concept has more or less worked for decades and any returning Amtrak passenger knows that's what the deal is and it's not something that's likely going to change. I think the better battle more worthy of focus is fighting for more options, better options, fresher options, options for people with dietary restrictions, etc. Amtrak has flirted with the idea of airline style cart service on Acela - but whether that would be complementary or not they haven't said.
 
Sleeper fares are market and demand based and priced based on what the market will bear.
That's the theory anyway. I'd willingly pay more than many coach passengers report as winning bids on unsold rooms, but I'm not willing to pay absurd sleeper fares just because the Gardner era runs the smallest trains in Amtrak history. Where I live it seems like Amtrak's yield management is setup to never discount sleeper rooms and leave money on the table by liquidating spoiled inventory at the last minute.
 
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I think another thing I'd say is this. Don't get me wrong - I'm not morally dead set against the idea. I just think sometimes with some of these things related to OBS it's about choosing your battles. One thing with F&B is that as long as threads exist here about food and dining someone will have something in the fine details to complain about or think it should be done differently - mainly because we all have different expectations, different preferences, etc. It's something that's highly variable with peoples' personal preferences. So you certainly can feel the way you do about the soda or snack, but another coach passenger may say I'd rather the coach fares be as low as possible and then I can decide on board if I want to pay for a coke or a bag of chips. The cafe car concept has more or less worked for decades and any returning Amtrak passenger knows that's what the deal is and it's not something that's likely going to change. I think the better battle more worthy of focus is fighting for more options, better options, fresher options, options for people with dietary restrictions, etc. Amtrak has flirted with the idea of airline style cart service on Acela - but whether that would be complementary or not they haven't said.
I think the better battle is keeping the Cafe car reliably open between 11a-2p and 5p-8p. OBS can take their meal breaks outside of peak hours.
 
I think another thing I'd say is this. Don't get me wrong - I'm not morally dead set against the idea. I just think sometimes with some of these things related to OBS it's about choosing your battles.
I don't think making a comparison is really choosing a battle.
But that's an Apples and oranges comparison - people are paying a massive amount more for sleeper accommodations.
No it's not. They both exist on the same train, with the same subsidies. The people that are paying a "massive amount more" are receiving full meals, an alcaholic drink at dinner, and a private room. The idea that coach passengers shouldn't receive a snack and drink like the airlines offer is not a crazy idea.

I'm not choosing a battle here, just continuing the comparison of airline vs. amtrak.
 
I think from the point of view of comparison it depends on how you look at it. Some of the airlines offer complementary snacks and soft drinks which Amtrak doesn't yes (not all of course with low cost carriers like Spirit charging.) However if you consider it from the point of view of what's offered period including what's offered for purchase generally you're going to find more options in the cafe car so it kind of depends on how you look at it. For me not being a big snack eater diet wise and also not drinking soda for the same reason it would kind of be a waste in my case, personally for me the choice to purchase something more substantial along with an alcoholic beverage and having a few options is more valuable.
 
However if you consider it from the point of view of what's offered period including what's offered for purchase generally you're going to find more options in the cafe car so it kind of depends on how you look at it. For me not being a big snack eater diet wise and also not drinking soda for the same reason it would kind of be a waste in my case, personally for me the choice to purchase something more substantial along with an alcoholic beverage and having a few options is more valuable.
Longer flights typically have snack boxes available for purchase - not quite as extensive as the cafe menu but similar selections and quality. You can always buy an alcaholic drink on flights as well and of course "soda" also means bottled water, coffee, juice, sparkling water, etc. I just meant free non-alcaholic drinks.

Of course on the Piedmont trains bottled water and coffee is complimentary for all passengers (or at least it was last time I rode it) - so it's not an unheard of concept.
 
Drink service in coach is not guaranteed -- the flight might be too short or there might be turbulence the whole way. I wouldn't call a small bag of pretzels, which is what I seem to usually get, a "snack." I think the airlines have discovered that they can run profitably with essentially non-existent on-board service. Most people are trying to get somewhere quickly (and safely and cheaply), and that seems to be all they care about. It might be nice for the longer domestic flights to have some sort of food service, but in the current frenzy of unbundling airline services, I wonder if any airline is offering full meal service at an extra price to coach passengers. That's something that could be paid for ahead of time to prevent people from having to fish for their wallets while crammed into the typical undersized coach seats. Come to think of it, Amtrak could have an option to allow coach passengers to order ahead and prepay for traditional dining meals.
 
Drink service in coach is not guaranteed -- the flight might be too short or there might be turbulence the whole way. I wouldn't call a small bag of pretzels, which is what I seem to usually get, a "snack."
Sure, but the service is there. The Cafe car isn't a guarantee either - it could always be bad ordered at the last minute or have no power or something. As for the snack... if I don't get Biscoff cookies did I even fly????? haha. Yeah, if Pretzels are the only snack I'm disappointed but often they have sun chips, cookies, etc. depends on the airline and the route.
I wonder if any airline is offering full meal service at an extra price to coach passengers.
Not full meal, but the longer flights typically have a snack box and often a sandwich choice. Nothing to write home about but pretty comparable to cafe car offerings.
 
I wouldn't call a small bag of pretzels, which is what I seem to usually get, a "snack." [...] I wonder if any airline is offering full meal service at an extra price to coach
The more elaborate buy-on-board coach meals offered on domestic flights did not survive the pandemic (see below). The reason food is a bigger deal on Amtrak is because unlike domestic flights train travel can take multiple days and unlike airports most train stops have little or no food service during Amtrak visits. So when your sleeper compartment costs double or triple First Class airfare but only comes with stale reheated food it starts to feel like a ripoff.

Example of pre-pandemic coach meals offered on AA via DFW...

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Pictures of the options above can be found here: https://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2018/Take-a-Bite/default.aspx


Most people are trying to get somewhere quickly (and safely and cheaply), and that seems to be all they care about.
I agree that travelers are okay with non-existent service if they can get somewhere quickly and cheaply, neither of which applies to Amtrak sleeper service. Which is why this whole premise is kind of silly. For most people Amtrak sleeper service is in no way competing with a coach flight to China.
 
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It's worth noting European trains are highly subsidized, but small snacks and beverages for overnight discount multi-berth sleeper passengers seems pretty standard.

My biggest complaint with the cafe food is its nutritional value, or the fact it is devoid of any. On a December trip on Empire Service, the turkey sandwich on a roll contained more than 1,000 mg of sodium. It's basically not food at that point.

I have no expertise in food sourcing and travel preparation for food...but there's gotta be some sort of middle ground here that can be reached.
 
I have no expertise in food sourcing and travel preparation for food...but there's gotta be some sort of middle ground here that can be reached.
The American Airlines and Zoes Kitchen setup seemed like a reasonable middle ground. Not too cheap and not too fancy. Supposedly Zoes was interested because it was losing money after expanding too fast and American was interested because Zoes was popular with women. Unfortunately the initial concept died off before it could take off. Obviously things are a bit more tricky for a setup like Amtrak, but putting in the effort might also pay larger dividends since long haul rail passengers are mostly stuck with whatever Amtrak offers and unlike flying it's relatively easy for unsatisfied customers to give up on Amtrak.
 
The American Airlines and Zoes Kitchen setup seemed like a reasonable middle ground. Not too cheap and not too fancy. Supposedly Zoes was interested because it was losing money after expanding too fast and American was interested because Zoes was popular with women. Unfortunately the initial concept died off before it could take off. Obviously things are a bit more tricky for a setup like Amtrak, but putting in the effort might also pay larger dividends since long haul rail passengers are mostly stuck with whatever Amtrak offers and unlike flying it's relatively easy for unsatisfied customers to give up on Amtrak.
Using Empire Service as an example, there's a significant dwell time at Albany. While it would take some technological preparation, it wouldn't be that challenging to choose 1-3 area restaurants offering carryout that could be delivered to the Albany station. Presumably, restaurants would appreciate the business as well. Ordering could take place through a (more functional) Amtrak app - airlines let people pre-purchase food.

Given that most, if not all, of the long distance trains have a long dwell stop for crew change and/or refueling, this model could be replicated elsewhere.

I imagine there could be some liability concerns, as well as the occasional late food delivery. But I'm hard-pressed to say it can't work, given that Amtrak does manage to order emergency food and have it delivered to arriving trains.
 
On the airplane menu side, there's a bunch of examples in the "Menus on Planes" thread: https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/menus-on-planes.82519/

My experience is that the best ship meals I've had blow away the best meals on airplanes, which blow away the best meals on Amtrak, and the worst meal on Amtrak (excepting the single hot dog for dinner I got on a northbound Silver that was delayed by eight and a half hours into Alexandria) is right on par with the worst on planes.
 
My experience is that the best ship meals I've had blow away the best meals on airplanes, which blow away the best meals on Amtrak,
When you say "ship meals," do you distinguish between meals served on cruise ship and meals served on ships that are providing basic transportation (i.e., ferries.)? Elaborate dining on cruise ships is well known, but some of the travel videos I've seen of the Alaska State ferry seem to show a much more simplified meal service on their overnight runs. And the food served on the Long Island Sound ferries is not much better than an Amtrak cafe car. (I has precooked hamburger that was sitting under a heat lamp for some unspecified time.)

Years ago, I took the Portland (ME) - Yarmouth (NS) ferry "Bolero," which has a really nice smorgasbord dinner as part of the overnight crossing. Great food, but by the time we finished dinner we had reached the open sea and the ship was rolling about, which caused us both great gastrointestinal distress. We didn't even bother with breakfast the next morning, we waited until the ship docked and we passed through customs. There was a diner in Yarmouth that did a really big business from all the hungry people driving off the ferry.
 
Given that most, if not all, of the long distance trains have a long dwell stop for crew change and/or refueling, this model could be replicated elsewhere.
The Empire Builder used to offer the "Big Sky Chicken Picnic Basket" or something like that - it was from a local restaurant/caterer and was purchased in the lounge car. So this can work.

Ideally though, the food is still loaded and handled by the existing commissaries - Amtrak can serve any quality of food that they want, which is what makes Flex so frustrating. There are lots of options. A good quality entree salad would be very easy to provide and with the right packaging would work for all special diets (cheese, meat, and gluten items packaged separately and added by the customer).
 
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