Amtrak: fixing a broken system: a guide

[Ed in CA]

Reminds me of the lyric in the Steely Dan song IGY (by Donald Fagen):

On that train all graphite and glitter

Undersea by rail

90 minutes from New York to Paris

Well by 76 we'll be A-OK

The future ain't what it used to be...

 

[roomette]

 

[chakk]

Mr. Traveler,

You have touched on something very important. To casual readers, the distinction may not be so clear. And if the distinction is not clear to trainaddict, how many other lurkers/guests might be reading and also come away with that impression? I agree that the statement "AU is not affiliated with Amtrak" should suffice and have been accepted at face value. Although it may be maddening that someone might be convinced in their mind that this is an Amtrak board and not grasp that AU is a separate entitity.... consider also that there is some murkiness present, especially given so many true experts here, not to mention there are employees and other insiders who post, and the designations you mention. It's interesting, to consider how this forum may actually be very influential in shaping people's perceptions of Amtrak itself.

What is so confusing about the designations assigned to posters. Most of those designations are simply based on the number of posts that the person has made to the forum. And I can't wait to see what will be the next "promotion" that I will receive as I make still more posts in the future.

 

[SarahZ]

For as much as people say they are "attacked", this forum has helped 10x as many people, if not more. Nobody attacked the OP. In the original thread(s), the OP attacked us, accused us of working for Amtrak (despite several posters explaining the forum nicknames), and then went absolutely crazy with threats to write Congress about Ryan (although, that part was pretty darn hilarious). ^_^

It is definitely a community, not just a forum. I've made many lasting friendships because of this forum, and it was a joy to meet some of those people in Chicago a few months ago. If people took the time to read through some threads and get a feel for the forum, I think they'd save themselves a whopping headache. I browsed for quite a while before taking the plunge with my first topic, and I learned oodles of info for my very first LD trip.

 

[user 1215]

And, as in any community, you have lefties, righties, centrists, awkwards, strong-willed, clueless, domineering, and really just add about any other adjective here. It's the diversity that makes this place fun to hang out.

I believe most of us want to help trainaddict out. Whether he wants to listen or not is a whole different story. He's by no means the first to express as he does and certainly won't be the last.

 

[SANSR]

Sarah said: " and then went absolutely crazy with threats to write Congress about Ryan (although, that part was pretty darn hilarious). ^_^"

He (Ryan) IS indeed a character of wit & wisdom!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Sarah said: " and then went absolutely crazy with threats to write Congress about Ryan (although, that part was pretty darn hilarious). ^_^"

He (Ryan) IS indeed a character of wit & wisdom!

Biased opinion. :lol:

 

[Rob Creighton]

I think it's definitely a community and I enjoy reading and occasionally interacting with a lot of posters. I'd love to meet some of you as well someday. Sometimes I think some of us can sound a little harsh, but if you hang around enough it's easy to figure out most of us are a good group of folks. If I start to get irritated at comments or a post, or are not interested in something, I don't let it get to me-- I move on to something else. It's all OK. It's fun. I'm glad I'm here, and I'm glad you all are here too!

 

[Old MM]

Thanks Roomette, for that Steely Dan song. One of my all time favorites

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I'd love to meet some of you as well someday.

That would be a big mistake for your sanity!

Actually, you should try to get to a Gathering, whether its one of the annuals in October, or a mini-G, which sporadically and spontaneously can happen at any time. Well worth it for anyone who spends time here.

 

[henryj]

I agree with you Sarah. There is much usable information posted on here and a lot of knowledgeable people, even if we do have our occasional flame wars.

 

[trainman74]

Thanks Roomette, for that Steely Dan song. One of my all time favorites

Technically, it's Donald Fagen solo -- although since Donald Fagen was/is Steely Dan's lead singer, and the album uses a number of the same musicians who played on Steely Dan albums, it obviously does sound a lot like Steely Dan!

If only Amtrak service were as consistent as the musicianship of Donald Fagen/Steely Dan...

 

[tonys96]

While I have been "attacked" here, I have also met and broke bread with several members and, I hope, forged friendships. Also, when "attacked" I have sent PMs to those I felt were disagreeing too heartily with me, and worked it out with all but one, who I simply choose to ignore.

That said, this is the best forum for Amtrak info going. I am glad it is here.

As for the OP of this thread, I, too, wish for these things, but do not have a magic wand or oodles of cash, so all I ask of the OP is what his/her proposal to pay for the aforementioned improvements might be?

 

[Guest]

Regarding the thread title... Amtrak: fixing a broken system: a guide

Certainly Amtrak has big-time challenges and opposition from many people, perhaps including the OP.

But kindly explain to me - with all of the barriers and problematic issues that plagues Amtrak - how in

the world did they increase their ridership up to 30 million last year? That 30 million number is very

respectable and clearly the carrier should be given some respect for the achievement and some support...

Furthermore, as I mentioned in a letter to Trains Magazine several years ago, Amtrak provides service

to over 500 destinations in the US. This is quite a respectable number. The carrier provides a level

of convenience and necessity to travelers in many, many destinations that airlines and buses will never

service. Amtrak provides a lifeline for Americans who do not have the means to fly or the capacity on

a bus.

If Amtrak had a sliver of the governmental support given to airlines and highways/motor carriers, there

would not be a problem. Frequencies could be adjusted upwards and new routes serviced such as

Chicago - Florida via the heartland south. (Through major metro areas that could benefit from Amtrak

and in turn bump up Amtrak's revenue). With that sorely needed additional silver of federal support

imagine how high the ridership would go. Amtrak service enhancements could be applied and fine-tuned

route by route. New equipment, WiFi on LD trains and the "dining car debacle" could be finessed.

The fact is, that by achieving the 30 million passenger mark, Amtrak has proven that it can attract patrons

and that there is value in the service. Those 30 million passengers and all Americans deserve to have a

safe, reliable and expanding rail network creating and sustaining the lifeline that Amtrak truly is.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

One member's loosely affiliated forum is another member's close knit community and yet another member's soapbox.

The idea that one view should be shared by all is nonsensical by its very nature.

 

[cirdan]

Speaking of Warren Buffet, he either owns or is a very major stockholder of BNSF.

Sorry to be pedantic but as far as I know he is neither.

The investment company Warren Buffet directs, Berkshire Hathaway, owns BNSF. And he owns quite a bit of that company himself, but by no means all or even most of it. In fact a large number of investors own Berkshire Hathaway through their stockholdings. Maybe even you own part of it without knowing so as some of the stock is held by pensions funds and mutuals.

Warren Buffet has an obligation to the people who own Berkshire Hathaway to provide a good return on the money they have entrusted to him. So whereas he can and does use his own money philantropically, he cannot do so with the company money.

 

[user 1215]

Regarding the thread title... Amtrak: fixing a broken system: a guide

Certainly Amtrak has big-time challenges and opposition from many people, perhaps including the OP.

But kindly explain to me - with all of the barriers and problematic issues that plagues Amtrak - how in

the world did they increase their ridership up to 30 million last year? That 30 million number is very

respectable and clearly the carrier should be given some respect for the achievement and some support...

Furthermore, as I mentioned in a letter to Trains Magazine several years ago, Amtrak provides service

to over 500 destinations in the US. This is quite a respectable number. The carrier provides a level

of convenience and necessity to travelers in many, many destinations that airlines and buses will never

service. Amtrak provides a lifeline for Americans who do not have the means to fly or the capacity on

a bus.

If Amtrak had a sliver of the governmental support given to airlines and highways/motor carriers, there

would not be a problem. Frequencies could be adjusted upwards and new routes serviced such as

Chicago - Florida via the heartland south. (Through major metro areas that could benefit from Amtrak

and in turn bump up Amtrak's revenue). With that sorely needed additional silver of federal support

imagine how high the ridership would go. Amtrak service enhancements could be applied and fine-tuned

route by route. New equipment, WiFi on LD trains and the "dining car debacle" could be finessed.

The fact is, that by achieving the 30 million passenger mark, Amtrak has proven that it can attract patrons

and that there is value in the service. Those 30 million passengers and all Americans deserve to have a

safe, reliable and expanding rail network creating and sustaining the lifeline that Amtrak truly is.

Nice and anonymous. I think I've read all these talking points before. Quite frankly, though, if Amtrak's long distance service disappeared, hardly anyone would notice. And the Hardly Anyones would somehow find another way to be mobile. And let's not forget that the 30 million passenger number includes a good chunk of repeat passengers that ride twice a day, 5 days a week. It's not like 10% of Americans ride Amtrak. But 54% of Americans who pay Federal Income Tax help to pay for it.

 

[haolerider]

Regarding the thread title... Amtrak: fixing a broken system: a guide Certainly Amtrak has big-time challenges and opposition from many people, perhaps including the OP.But kindly explain to me - with all of the barriers and problematic issues that plagues Amtrak - how inthe world did they increase their ridership up to 30 million last year? That 30 million number is veryrespectable and clearly the carrier should be given some respect for the achievement and some support... Furthermore, as I mentioned in a letter to Trains Magazine several years ago, Amtrak provides serviceto over 500 destinations in the US. This is quite a respectable number. The carrier provides a levelof convenience and necessity to travelers in many, many destinations that airlines and buses will neverservice. Amtrak provides a lifeline for Americans who do not have the means to fly or the capacity ona bus. If Amtrak had a sliver of the governmental support given to airlines and highways/motor carriers, therewould not be a problem. Frequencies could be adjusted upwards and new routes serviced such asChicago - Florida via the heartland south. (Through major metro areas that could benefit from Amtrakand in turn bump up Amtrak's revenue). With that sorely needed additional silver of federal supportimagine how high the ridership would go. Amtrak service enhancements could be applied and fine-tunedroute by route. New equipment, WiFi on LD trains and the "dining car debacle" could be finessed. The fact is, that by achieving the 30 million passenger mark, Amtrak has proven that it can attract patronsand that there is value in the service. Those 30 million passengers and all Americans deserve to have a safe, reliable and expanding rail network creating and sustaining the lifeline that Amtrak truly is.

Nice and anonymous. I think I've read all these talking points before. Quite frankly, though, if Amtrak's long distance service disappeared, hardly anyone would notice. And the Hardly Anyones would somehow find another way to be mobile. And let's not forget that the 30 million passenger number includes a good chunk of repeat passengers that ride twice a day, 5 days a week. It's not like 10% of Americans ride Amtrak. But 54% of Americans who pay Federal Income Tax help to pay for it.

Actually, I believe the percentage of the population riding Amtrak is 1-2%....pretty low penetration; however it would be interesting if someone on this forum who is a "numbers person", could calculate just how much each taxpayer contributes to the Amtrak subsidy. I would think it would be quite small in comparison to other line items in the total budget.

 

[Old MM]

What percentage of Americans do ride Amtrak? I would have thought more than 10%. As an example, the Wolverine. It's the only halfway credible example I can discuss, having observed this service line for well over a decade now. There is no doubt that ridership has increased. And there is much anecdotal evidence of people now choosing this as an option to Chicago over flying, especially once people factor in the time and cost of driving to DTW, parking, going through security, etc., plus upon arrival people with meetings in Chicago are already downtown and don't need to take the Blue or Orange line train from the airports. How this all translates into the numbers that influence policy, I don't know. Intuitively, it would seem like a Field of Dreams scenario: if you build a better service, they will come. 4 hours between DTW and downtown Chicago? More frequent service? Short haul routes are evidently at least profitable.

 

[user 1215]

The 1-2% sounds about right. 300,000,000 people in the US and 30,000,000 Amtrak passsengers every year. That in and of itself means that, assuming everyone at least rides round trip, that 5% ride Amtrak. Whittle it down and take out the duplication of daily commuters and the 1%-2% seems close to fair.

Note: Ridership on just the one busiest passenger rail system in Japan (JR East) has an annual ridership equal to the population of the entire planet (around 6.1 BILLION).

 

[leemell]

Speaking of Warren Buffet, he either owns or is a very major stockholder of BNSF.

Sorry to be pedantic but as far as I know he is neither.

The investment company Warren Buffet directs, Berkshire Hathaway, owns BNSF. And he owns quite a bit of that company himself, but by no means all or even most of it. In fact a large number of investors own Berkshire Hathaway through their stockholdings. Maybe even you own part of it without knowing so as some of the stock is held by pensions funds and mutuals.

Warren Buffet has an obligation to the people who own Berkshire Hathaway to provide a good return on the money they have entrusted to him. So whereas he can and does use his own money philantropically, he cannot do so with the company money.

You too can own Berkshire Hathaway at today's price per share of about $173,000. ;-)

 

[leemell]

Regarding the thread title... Amtrak: fixing a broken system: a guide Certainly Amtrak has big-time challenges and opposition from many people, perhaps including the OP.But kindly explain to me - with all of the barriers and problematic issues that plagues Amtrak - how inthe world did they increase their ridership up to 30 million last year? That 30 million number is veryrespectable and clearly the carrier should be given some respect for the achievement and some support... Furthermore, as I mentioned in a letter to Trains Magazine several years ago, Amtrak provides serviceto over 500 destinations in the US. This is quite a respectable number. The carrier provides a levelof convenience and necessity to travelers in many, many destinations that airlines and buses will neverservice. Amtrak provides a lifeline for Americans who do not have the means to fly or the capacity ona bus. If Amtrak had a sliver of the governmental support given to airlines and highways/motor carriers, therewould not be a problem. Frequencies could be adjusted upwards and new routes serviced such asChicago - Florida via the heartland south. (Through major metro areas that could benefit from Amtrakand in turn bump up Amtrak's revenue). With that sorely needed additional silver of federal supportimagine how high the ridership would go. Amtrak service enhancements could be applied and fine-tunedroute by route. New equipment, WiFi on LD trains and the "dining car debacle" could be finessed. The fact is, that by achieving the 30 million passenger mark, Amtrak has proven that it can attract patronsand that there is value in the service. Those 30 million passengers and all Americans deserve to have a safe, reliable and expanding rail network creating and sustaining the lifeline that Amtrak truly is.

Nice and anonymous. I think I've read all these talking points before. Quite frankly, though, if Amtrak's long distance service disappeared, hardly anyone would notice. And the Hardly Anyones would somehow find another way to be mobile. And let's not forget that the 30 million passenger number includes a good chunk of repeat passengers that ride twice a day, 5 days a week. It's not like 10% of Americans ride Amtrak. But 54% of Americans who pay Federal Income Tax help to pay for it.

Actually, I believe the percentage of the population riding Amtrak is 1-2%....pretty low penetration; however it would be interesting if someone on this forum who is a "numbers person", could calculate just how much each taxpayer contributes to the Amtrak subsidy. I would think it would be quite small in comparison to other line items in the total budget.

Just a rough and uncorrected number, there are about 100M taxpayers and the the Amtak Federal budget item is about $1.3B. So the average taxpayer pays about $13. per year.

 

[afigg]

The 1-2% sounds about right. 300,000,000 people in the US and 30,000,000 Amtrak passengers every year. That in and of itself means that, assuming everyone at least rides round trip, that 5% ride Amtrak. Whittle it down and take out the duplication of daily commuters and the 1%-2% seems close to fair.

Note: Ridership on just the one busiest passenger rail system in Japan (JR East) has an annual ridership equal to the population of the entire planet (around 6.1 BILLION).

Is the 1-2% figure a share of US citizens in a year? Or is over a longer baseline a more valid metric? If it a 3 or 5 year baseline for the occasional traveler who takes Amtrak, the percent share of the US population will be obviously higher. I expect outside of the NEC, there is a higher proportion of passengers who take Amtrak only every every couple of years or longer intervals. The percent of the population share, whatever that share is, is obviously going to be higher in the Northeast, than for example in Wyoming.

If we want large annual numbers, the NYC subway had 1.65 billion passengers in 2012. (http://www.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/).

 

[RailRide]

The 1-2% sounds about right. 300,000,000 people in the US and 30,000,000 Amtrak passsengers every year. That in and of itself means that, assuming everyone at least rides round trip, that 5% ride Amtrak. Whittle it down and take out the duplication of daily commuters and the 1%-2% seems close to fair.

Note: Ridership on just the one busiest passenger rail system in Japan (JR East) has an annual ridership equal to the population of the entire planet (around 6.1 BILLION).

Now, what would that percentage be if you limited the populace to the number who have access to Amtrak services?

I recall reading an article about a study (possibly published by the Reason foundation or something similar) who proclaimed that only 2% of trips taken in the US were by public transportation of any type. (thereby insinuating that funding it at any level was a waste). The flaw in the methodology, as pointed out in the article citing the report was that they were including trips taken in areas that did not have any sort of public transit, but counting their non-use of nonexistent buses/trains as a "choice" .

---PCJ

 

[the_traveler]

I agree with not including areas that don't have access to public transportation. (Places like Caribou, ME or Green River, WY or Calliente, NV.). But should I be included also? :huh: I live in an area with NO public transportation, I don't drive and the nearest transportation (which happens to be Amtrak) is over 15 miles away. (The airport, city buses and even Greyhound or other lines are even further.)