Amtrak LAUS to Las Vegas Talgo Abandoned Plan 2001

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
There have been several plans to revive LA-LV service over the years, and I believe this was one of them (it was floated about the same time as the 3x daily study was done, if I'm not mistaken).
 
There have been several plans to revive LA-LV service over the years, and I believe this was one of them (it was floated about the same time as the 3x daily study was done, if I'm not mistaken).
It must have moved way beyond planning if Talgo built a trainset for the service. I'm guessing they did not just build it and hope for the best?
 
I believe the service was almost ready to start, but Amtrak was going through one of its periodic financial crisis. David Gunn had just taken over as president and ordered a moratorium on new service until the crisis could be resolved. Momentum for the service stopped and never resumed.
 
Wasn't that the crisis in which Amtrak came very close to being unable to make good on its paychecks to its employees? As Ir ecall they were within weeks or days of such, and then an emergency loan was arranged to avoid the abyss. I don't remember whether this was the one.
 
Talgo's to 'Vegas?.........Shades of the old UP City of Las Vegas, equipped with the GM Aerotrain..... :D
 
Tomorrow XTrain will, surely, offer a press release touting the "new" cars!

Gotta love a travel company in the comedy business!
 
Wasn't that the crisis in which Amtrak came very close to being unable to make good on its paychecks to its employees? As Ir ecall they were within weeks or days of such, and then an emergency loan was arranged to avoid the abyss. I don't remember whether this was the one.
Would be about the right timeframe. Checking one of the annual financial reports, the $300 million mortgage on NY Penn Station to provide cash was taken out in June, 2001 which was near the end of the Warrington era. Gunn took over in May, 2002. But there may have been another emergency loan in 2002 or 2003 as Amtrak teetered on the brink back then.

The 2007 Las Vegas to Los Angeles Rail Corridor Improvement Feasibility Study (213 page, 6+ MB PDF) which is still available on the net, notes this about the earlier LA to Vegas service effort:

In March 1997, Amtrak completed a study to identify potential improvements that could reduce the train’s travel time and make the Las Vegas – Los Angeles service more competitive with travel by automobile. The study identified a series of improvement projects and resulted in a proposal to provide a single daily roundtrip between Las Vegas and Los Angeles.

An agreement with Union Pacific Railroad was reached to provide 20 miles of double track between Kelso and Cima. As part of that effort, an environmental assessment and biological opinion in the project area was completed. Additionally, a single 10-car Talgo trainset for the service was ordered (as part of a purchase of Talgo trains for the Cascades service, which operates between destinations in Oregon and Washington).

Unfortunately, the service was never initiated, and the Talgo trainset ordered for the Las Vegas service was transferred to the Cascades.
So Gunn pulling the plug in 2002 would match the timeframe. Too bad, as the 2007 report shows that starting a LA to Vegas corridor service is really not that expensive. Which is why X-Train pursued it (or used it as an excuse to get investor bucks). Some of the recommended improvements on the Southern California end have been done, so the costs to starting a service are lower than they were in 2007.
 
Wasn't that the crisis in which Amtrak came very close to being unable to make good on its paychecks to its employees? As Ir ecall they were within weeks or days of such, and then an emergency loan was arranged to avoid the abyss. I don't remember whether this was the one.
Would be about the right timeframe. Checking one of the annual financial reports, the $300 million mortgage on NY Penn Station to provide cash was taken out in June, 2001 which was near the end of the Warrington era. Gunn took over in May, 2002. But there may have been another emergency loan in 2002 or 2003 as Amtrak teetered on the brink back then.

The 2007 Las Vegas to Los Angeles Rail Corridor Improvement Feasibility Study (213 page, 6+ MB PDF) which is still available on the net, notes this about the earlier LA to Vegas service effort:

In March 1997, Amtrak completed a study to identify potential improvements that could reduce the train’s travel time and make the Las Vegas – Los Angeles service more competitive with travel by automobile. The study identified a series of improvement projects and resulted in a proposal to provide a single daily roundtrip between Las Vegas and Los Angeles.

An agreement with Union Pacific Railroad was reached to provide 20 miles of double track between Kelso and Cima. As part of that effort, an environmental assessment and biological opinion in the project area was completed. Additionally, a single 10-car Talgo trainset for the service was ordered (as part of a purchase of Talgo trains for the Cascades service, which operates between destinations in Oregon and Washington).

Unfortunately, the service was never initiated, and the Talgo trainset ordered for the Las Vegas service was transferred to the Cascades.
So Gunn pulling the plug in 2002 would match the timeframe. Too bad, as the 2007 report shows that starting a LA to Vegas corridor service is really not that expensive. Which is why X-Train pursued it (or used it as an excuse to get investor bucks). Some of the recommended improvements on the Southern California end have been done, so the costs to starting a service are lower than they were in 2007.
Never realized how close a train from LA to LAS came to fruition. With a 5 hour travel time, especially with the nasty traffic jams these days, that is a very competitive travel time. When the new bi-levels arrive, maybe they can use the current Surfliner Cars to start the LAS service. Getting to Vegas is becoming more of a joke these days by car and air planes. A dedicated train service to LAUS -> LAS would probably do very well, but in my opinion, its going to have to start at LAUS and not Riverside or Victorville as some of the alternative options. If I'm taking the train to Vegas, I'd like to take it all the way via say Metrolink or Pacific Surfliner to LAUS and transfer. Getting to Riverside or Victorville from LA or OC is no walk in the park driving on the congested freeway. Also, with free covered parking at the OC stations and covered security reasonable paid parking at LAUS, the train probably has a better potential from LAUS than the IE terminus.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The good news is that the track route taken by the Amtrak Desert Wind is still there as is the station in Las Vegas. A train from LAX to LAS and all the way to Ogden UT just needs a new agreement to run but I would not get too excited. The bad news is that Amtrak is not in a position to add new routes. The only way that I see a new Desert Wind train running is if the casinos sponsor it as a gambling/vacation train. Then maybe and its a big maybe.
 
The good news is that the track route taken by the Amtrak Desert Wind is still there as is the station in Las Vegas. A train from LAX to LAS and all the way to Ogden UT just needs a new agreement to run but I would not get too excited. The bad news is that Amtrak is not in a position to add new routes. The only way that I see a new Desert Wind train running is if the casinos sponsor it as a gambling/vacation train. Then maybe and its a big maybe.
The route was supposed to be LA -> LAS only. No Utah. According to the document provided by afigg, the problem with the Desert Wind's dismal performance was that it was a LD train. The new service that almost started and any future train looks like its going to be a corridor train that is timed for the convenience of SOCAL and Southern Nevada. Any future train to UT would probably have to be supported by UT, NV or a combination of both and timed for a corridor run between their two cities.
 
The good news is that the track route taken by the Amtrak Desert Wind is still there as is the station in Las Vegas. A train from LAX to LAS and all the way to Ogden UT just needs a new agreement to run but I would not get too excited. The bad news is that Amtrak is not in a position to add new routes. The only way that I see a new Desert Wind train running is if the casinos sponsor it as a gambling/vacation train. Then maybe and its a big maybe.
The route was supposed to be LA -> LAS only. No Utah. According to the document provided by afigg, the problem with the Desert Wind's dismal performance was that it was a LD train. The new service that almost started and any future train looks like its going to be a corridor train that is timed for the convenience of SOCAL and Southern Nevada. Any future train to UT would probably have to be supported by UT, NV or a combination of both and timed for a corridor run between their two cities.
My understanding is that the operation was also hampered by Amtrak having to keep space blocked off Las Vegas-Los Angeles for through passengers. Put another way, Amtrak could probably have cut a coach or two off at Las Vegas and not had any issues doing so; today, Amtrak would probably be able to cut off even more given how much I understand traffic to have gone downhill since then.
 
Wasn't that the crisis in which Amtrak came very close to being unable to make good on its paychecks to its employees? As Ir ecall they were within weeks or days of such, and then an emergency loan was arranged to avoid the abyss. I don't remember whether this was the one.
No, I don't think so. The big one was earlier, near the end of the Downs administration, and was resolved with a "tax refund" and special Congressional appropriations in 1997. The subsequent crises had a *lot* more lead time (I think the Department of Transportation didn't want to be blindsided again). Warrington loaded Amtrak up with debt, but the result was that he didn't have the same kind of sudden cash-flow crisis as Downs did -- because he did issue debt. The Penn Station Mortgage had a long lead time on it, he was campaigning for it for months, maybe a year.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The Vegas Talgo plan was not killed by David Gunn, or really anyone at Amtrak for that matter. The plan was killed by a turtle and Union Pacific essentially.

After spending some big bucks to get UP to double track the line so that service could be started, environmentalists in conjunction with the typical NIMBY's, put a hold on double tracking one section of the line that was needed to start service. They did so by seizing upon a semi-rare turtle that lived in that area, claiming that the slight widening of the ROW would hurt the turtles. After a few years of battles UP finally got the go ahead to complete the double tracking in that section.

Only by that time, UP was already enjoying the fruits of the other improvements & double tracking and with the increase in freight service overall in this country, it then turned around and demanded further improvements now be made to their line so as to not impact the new level of freight service made possible by the first round of improvements.

I don't recall for certain, but either Amtrak could not afford (most likely) or refused to pay still more (less likely, but still possible) and the States wouldn't step up with funding, so the plan died and the extra Talgo went to Washington. IIRC, there were one or two test runs actually made with the Taglo set out to Vegas before things fell apart.

I see upon doing a bit of research, that not only was there a test run, but Amtrak had even announced the start of service and held a big party in Vegas with the trainset. Details & photos can be found here.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wasn't that the crisis in which Amtrak came very close to being unable to make good on its paychecks to its employees? As Ir ecall they were within weeks or days of such, and then an emergency loan was arranged to avoid the abyss. I don't remember whether this was the one.
No, I don't think so. The big one was earlier, near the end of the Downs administration, and was resolved with a "tax refund" and special Congressional appropriations in 1997. The subsequent crises had a *lot* more lead time (I think the Department of Transportation didn't want to be blindsided again). Warrington loaded Amtrak up with debt, but the result was that he didn't have the same kind of sudden cash-flow crisis as Downs did -- because he did issue debt. The Penn Station Mortgage had a long lead time on it, he was campaigning for it for months, maybe a year.
No, as David Gunn took over Amtrak he quickly discovered that George Warrington had left him with no cash reserves. Within a month or two of him taking over Mr. Gunn had to get an emergency loan of $100M from the DOT just to meet payroll. That allowed the anti-rail Bush White House to impose the moratorium of no new startup's unless someone else (state or private entity) guaranteed that Amtrak would not lose money on the new service.

I'm thinking that the Vegas service was already dead by the time that all happened, but I'm not entirely sure. The timing would be close. That said, the moratorium would not have stopped the Vegas service as that was already planned before the loan and would have been grandfathered in.
 
That matches what I seem to recall. Warring ton left Amtrak finances in absolute shambles with almost no cash flow and no money to even carry out day to day maintenance. This led to Gunn having to slash all Northeast Regionals to 5 car consists, some even just 4 cars, and parking the rest of the Amfleet pending availability of funding to carry out necessary maintenance. This is just my personal recollection and I am happy to be corrected should I happen to remember wrong.
 
Aloha

One of Amtrak's engineer, now retired, is an engineer for The Nevada Southern RR Museum. He said that he felt that the Talgo's were underpowered for the Cahon grade ant max speed on the grade was 35mph.. the freights on the grade typically use 6 engines, 4 up front and 2 on the rear. I have seen a few with 5 front and 3 rear. Never saw any with mid train engines.
 
Well, I guess there were a couple of times when Amtrak almost stopped paying its bills. The House of Representatives was actively trying to kill Amtrak during the entire period, so it's not surprising.

It's pretty clear that Downs generated one such cash crisis. It was actually a bigger crisis -- requiring a $2.4 billion cash infusion -- but there was a friendly administration (Clinton) rather than an unfriendly one (Bush II).

Downs got handed a company with a lot of deferred maintenance and delayed capital investment. He converted this into a company with a lot of deferred maintenance and delayed capital investment, and worse cash flow.

This was Downs's statement a year and a half before he was forced out due to Amtrak's ridership and revenue dropping, and the company running out of cash.

http://www.trainweb.com/travel/general/downspeech.html

DOWNS was the first to use the phrase "glide path", it's there in the statement.

Warrington's reputation among rail fans is probably largely due to Gunn and the Class I freight execs badmouthing him. I can't really blame Gunn; David Gunn has talked a lot of BS over the years, but it gets good political results, so I can't blame him.

Frankly I suspect Gunn of grandstanding in order to get the money. It's his style.

Thomas Downs doesn't seem to have a reputation of any sort among rail fans, oddly. But every time I learn something about his professional record, it's worse than the last thing I learned. He seems to have done a bad job at NJ Transit, too. And as the NJ Commissioner of Transportation. And at the DC Transportation Department. I don't know much about his history at the Triboro Bridge and Tunnel Authority. I'm sure Downs is a well-meaning guy -- every Amtrak President was -- but he did a really poor job. He's now the chair of WMATA, overseeing giant cost overruns, massive delays, and inability to maintain equipment. Which seems to be absolutely typical.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Aloha

One of Amtrak's engineer, now retired, is an engineer for The Nevada Southern RR Museum. He said that he felt that the Talgo's were underpowered for the Cahon grade ant max speed on the grade was 35mph.. the freights on the grade typically use 6 engines, 4 up front and 2 on the rear. I have seen a few with 5 front and 3 rear. Never saw any with mid train engines.
Well the Talgo set really has nothing to do with the power. They are pulled by Amtrak EMD engines on the Cascades. So your saying the EMD's can't make Cajon Pass? Doesn't the SWC make it through daily with two Genesis?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top