Amtrak recommends new train between Pittsburgh, Harrisburg

[j653]

Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reports:

Amtrak is recommending that another train be added to the sparse service between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg, if state and federal legislators decide the additional ridership is worth the expense.
In a study mandated by the federal Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008, Amtrak officials looked at passenger service in Pennsylvania and decided that the potential riders and revenue were sufficient to consider increasing the Pennsylvanian route between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg from one train per day in each direction to two, adding a midday departure from Pittsburgh and a late-night arrival that could connect to trains heading west to Chicago.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburgh...h/s_648872.html

 

[Greg]

Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reports:

Amtrak is recommending that another train be added to the sparse service between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg, if state and federal legislators decide the additional ridership is worth the expense.
In a study mandated by the federal Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008, Amtrak officials looked at passenger service in Pennsylvania and decided that the potential riders and revenue were sufficient to consider increasing the Pennsylvanian route between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg from one train per day in each direction to two, adding a midday departure from Pittsburgh and a late-night arrival that could connect to trains heading west to Chicago.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburgh...h/s_648872.html

they want to give them a second train and we don't even have a single train from NOLA to Florida....<sigh>

 

[the_traveler]

In the study released last week, Amtrak recommended adding another train to the line that would depart Pittsburgh at 1 p.m. and return at 11:45 p.m., with the possibility of connecting to the westbound Capitol Limited route to Chicago from Washington, that leaves at 11:55 p.m.

A 10 minute connection! Does that include time for a possible late train? :huh:

:lol:

 

[wayman]

In the study released last week, Amtrak recommended adding another train to the line that would depart Pittsburgh at 1 p.m. and return at 11:45 p.m., with the possibility of connecting to the westbound Capitol Limited route to Chicago from Washington, that leaves at 11:55 p.m.

A 10 minute connection! Does that include time for a possible late train? :huh:

:lol:

It's a strange article, in that it suggests the main use of this route is for people from Pittsburgh going to Harrisburg for day-trips, returning on the same day.... and yet the only thing a return to Pittsburgh after 11pm gets you is a shorter layover if you're connecting to the Capitol. It's extremely late to be returning home to Pittsburgh from a day-trip to Harrisburg.... and as you've observed, it's also too late for a safe connection. If it arrived in Pittsburgh at 11pm maybe. But 11:45pm? Someone isn't thinking here.

I'm surprised they feel like they need to purchase diesels for this. Aren't there plenty of spare diesels already, especially with all the P-40s that could be brought back into service?

 

[AlanB]

I'm surprised they feel like they need to purchase diesels for this. Aren't there plenty of spare diesels already, especially with all the P-40s that could be brought back into service?

Actually by my educated, but still unofficial count, once the 15 P40's currently earmarked for restoration by the Stimulus, there are only 13 P40's left in mothballs. Still more than enough to do the job, but it's not like there are dozens of them sitting around.

And I have to believe that the 15 currently being refurbed already have jobs planned for them.

 

[Amtrak839]

While were on the subject of the P40s, does anyone know if a decision has been made on whether or not to renumber them as P42s, or leave them in the 800 series?

 

[rail_rider]

In the study released last week, Amtrak recommended adding another train to the line that would depart Pittsburgh at 1 p.m. and return at 11:45 p.m., with the possibility of connecting to the westbound Capitol Limited route to Chicago from Washington, that leaves at 11:55 p.m.

A 10 minute connection! Does that include time for a possible late train? :huh:

:lol:

It's a strange article, in that it suggests the main use of this route is for people from Pittsburgh going to Harrisburg for day-trips, returning on the same day.... and yet the only thing a return to Pittsburgh after 11pm gets you is a shorter layover if you're connecting to the Capitol. It's extremely late to be returning home to Pittsburgh from a day-trip to Harrisburg.... and as you've observed, it's also too late for a safe connection. If it arrived in Pittsburgh at 11pm maybe. But 11:45pm? Someone isn't thinking here.

I'm surprised they feel like they need to purchase diesels for this. Aren't there plenty of spare diesels already, especially with all the P-40s that could be brought back into service?

I would bet it has something to do with Harrisburg being the state capitol and all the lawyers and state representatives from Western Pa. not wanting to drive over the mountains in the winter. They hate not having the kind of service that their brothers have on the Eastern side of the state.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

While were on the subject of the P40s, does anyone know if a decision has been made on whether or not to renumber them as P42s, or leave them in the 800 series?

I would think they will keep there original numbers.

I sure do hope this happens, it would make an ALT turn possible.

 

[Acela150]

Keep in mind that the "Cap" has a tendency to be late into PGH. But it's a great idea. I was on the Penny to and from HAR in July 2008 and the train was PACKED!!! I was with my Dad. Their was no chance of the two of us sitting together. We ended up sitting across from each other. With a little more Flexibility the Penny and the possible new train room should open up. The Penny sells out easy. This is why room would open up between NYP and PGH via PHL and HAR. One of my friends from school took the Penny from PHL to NYP and she said it was packed and a nightmare to find A. A seat. B. A place to put her bags. and C. Getting on and off the train in PHL and then at NYP which was a result of people falling asleep and then magically waking up when passengers were boarding in PHL and NYP is a nightmare around 445.

 

[wayman]

I sure do hope this happens, it would make an ALT turn possible.

The PGH-ALT-PGH turn already exists with the current Pennsylvanian (Monday through Saturday), with seven hours in Altoona. That takes you through Horseshoe Curve twice in daylight, and even gives you plenty of time mid-day to rent a car while in Altoona and drive over there and back again. (I assume that's why you're interested in it.)

The proposed second train does give you an option for a shorter layover in ALT on a PGH-ALT-PGH -- about ninety minutes in ALT -- so it's nice for just riding through Horseshoe Curve, but that short turn already exists on Sundays (when the eastbound Pennsylvanian departs Pittsburgh at 1:20pm).

And there's still no Horseshoe Curve turn for those of us in the east (and we'd have to turn at Johnstown anyhow, since the Curve is west of Altoona). No turn westbound-then-eastbound at either Altoona or Johnstown exists even with the proposed new trains.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

they want to give them a second train and we don't even have a single train from NOLA to Florida....<sigh>

They are only doing this if Pennsylvania funds it or gets the feds to do so. If the Feds earmarked money to restore the Sunset, the Sunset would be running as quck as you please.

I'm surprised they feel like they need to purchase diesels for this. Aren't there plenty of spare diesels already, especially with all the P-40s that could be brought back into service?

Consider the following, Will: The P40s are getting old. They were delivered in 92- that means they are 17 years old. The P40 order was placed in 1990, when the oldest F40s were about the same age. Amtrak is probably contemplating the replacement of the entire Genesis fleet. But they need a specialized design for it, something that will meet the clearence of their entire system. Perhaps even a modification of the of the NJT dual-modes with bigger engines and no cat equipment. Something that could potentially haul trains using diesel fuel at speeds of 125 mph.

The point? What if Amtrak could use this excuse to get such a design tooled up and ready for production, passing the cost of preparing for production off on a state or the feds...?

No, the P42s aren't dead yet. But maybe, for once, Amtrak is being smart and taking into account that it takes 5-10 years to get the Feds to move on something that will take 3 years to do. Meaning a 8-13 year lead time.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

I sure do hope this happens, it would make an ALT turn possible.

The PGH-ALT-PGH turn already exists with the current Pennsylvanian (Monday through Saturday), with seven hours in Altoona. That takes you through Horseshoe Curve twice in daylight, and even gives you plenty of time mid-day to rent a car while in Altoona and drive over there and back again. (I assume that's why you're interested in it.)

The proposed second train does give you an option for a shorter layover in ALT on a PGH-ALT-PGH -- about ninety minutes in ALT -- so it's nice for just riding through Horseshoe Curve, but that short turn already exists on Sundays (when the eastbound Pennsylvanian departs Pittsburgh at 1:20pm).

And there's still no Horseshoe Curve turn for those of us in the east (and we'd have to turn at Johnstown anyhow, since the Curve is west of Altoona). No turn westbound-then-eastbound at either Altoona or Johnstown exists even with the proposed new trains.

Yeah, I would be coming from NYP, so I'd still be SOL. Bummer, its not so much the curve, the La Juanta shops are also a selling point.

 

[j653]

This appears to be a PDF of the study: http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/PRIAA/Pennsylvan...viceStudies.pdf

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

While were on the subject of the P40s, does anyone know if a decision has been made on whether or not to renumber them as P42s, or leave them in the 800 series?

I sort of assume that the P40s will be rebuilt into P42s and will renumbered to the P42 series. I assume Amtrak will make them into P42s for simple maintenance so that parts will be interchangeable.....

 

[Steve4031]

It looks like they are thinking about new equipment. I wonder what kind. It probably isn't practical, but it would be fun to ride a Talgo train on this route because of the scenery and the big windows. The tilting might help with slight speed increases on the curves along the Juniata river.

 

[goodnightjohnwayne]

It seems to me that the best way to provide service to Pittsburgh is through a cross platform connection at Harrisburg. This latest new item even confirms that the market is for Harrisburg to Pittsburgh service, not a single seat ride between Pittsburgh and New York.

 

[cpamtfan]

While were on the subject of the P40s, does anyone know if a decision has been made on whether or not to renumber them as P42s, or leave them in the 800 series?

I sort of assume that the P40s will be rebuilt into P42s and will renumbered to the P42 series. I assume Amtrak will make them into P42s for simple maintenance so that parts will be interchangeable.....

Nope. I dont think thats possible if Im not mistaken. Dutch

 

[Green Maned Lion]

While were on the subject of the P40s, does anyone know if a decision has been made on whether or not to renumber them as P42s, or leave them in the 800 series?

I sort of assume that the P40s will be rebuilt into P42s and will renumbered to the P42 series. I assume Amtrak will make them into P42s for simple maintenance so that parts will be interchangeable.....

They will not. That would require replacing the prime mover, which would cost almost as much as buying a new locomotive. Not even mentioning that the P42s prime mover doesn't meet current emissions standards. If they wanted something like that, they'd find more success either going to Wabtec for MP40s (or MP42s, I suppose) or better yet going to Alstom for PL42ACs which happen to also fit into Penn Station- at least through the North River tunnels. I've seen them pulling NJTransit's Atlantic City Express from time to time instead of P40DCs.

It seems to me that the best way to provide service to Pittsburgh is through a cross platform connection at Harrisburg. This latest new item even confirms that the market is for Harrisburg to Pittsburgh service, not a single seat ride between Pittsburgh and New York.

The market is for a single seat ride between New York and Chicago via Pittsburgh, once known as the Broadway Limited. There is about 3 tons of evidence that Amtrak plans to run it again once the new Viewliners get in. I have some solid evidence from high end sources that I am not going to quote. This would be a really cute way to get Pennsylvania to pay for part of it.

You don't need to make a close connection when your intention is to run the train right the heck through.

 

[jis]

It looks like they are thinking about new equipment. I wonder what kind. It probably isn't practical, but it would be fun to ride a Talgo train on this route because of the scenery and the big windows. The tilting might help with slight speed increases on the curves along the Juniata river.

Unlikely to be a low floor Talgo if it is to run from NYP or PHL. However, there are many other possible tilt equipment available these days, and a big window can be put on almost anything. Those Virgin Pndolinos that they use in the UK look and feel quite nice. Need to be put on a heftier diet to make them grow in size to nromalUS size though

 

[jis]

They will not. That would require replacing the prime mover, which would cost almost as much as buying a new locomotive. Not even mentioning that the P42s prime mover doesn't meet current emissions standards. If they wanted something like that, they'd find more success either going to Wabtec for MP40s (or MP42s, I suppose) or better yet going to Alstom for PL42ACs which happen to also fit into Penn Station- at least through the North River tunnels. I've seen them pulling NJTransit's Atlantic City Express from time to time instead of P40DCs.

Even if the PL42 actually fits into Penn Station, as delivered they are not EPA II compliant. I remember how they had to get those engines delivered notionally by starting up the engine once before the deadline of the supercession of the EPA I standard, so as to avoid meeting the new standard.

Reportedly they are capable of being upgraded to EPA Tier II with some additional work, though I am not aware if NJT has taken the trouble to do so.

BTW, are you sure that the PL42s fit under 14'6"? How tall are they?

 

[sueb]

If they add this service I really wish they would also add checked baggage to/from HAR. The station has the staffing and the space for it already. Currently pax on the Pennsylvanian cannot check bags. They'd have to add a baggage car to the train, of course. But I bet 50% or more of westbound pax from HAR are connecting to the CL at PGH. Even if they are getting off at PGH, some of those state lawmakers or lobbyists might also like to check their bags, too.

 

[wayman]

If they add this service I really wish they would also add checked baggage to/from HAR. The station has the staffing and the space for it already. Currently pax on the Pennsylvanian cannot check bags. They'd have to add a baggage car to the train, of course. But I bet 50% or more of westbound pax from HAR are connecting to the CL at PGH. Even if they are getting off at PGH, some of those state lawmakers or lobbyists might also like to check their bags, too.

In five or ten years when Amtrak restores the Broadway Limited -- I agree with GML that this is a long-term plan, towards which this proposed extension is a first step -- I suspect the train will have checked baggage, and I suspect Harrisburg will get checked baggage service. But there won't be new baggage cars for five or ten years, and without baggage cars I don't see how they could add checked baggage to either the Pennsylvanian or the proposed extension.

I also wonder whether Harrisburg will become the engine change point for one or both trains, or whether that will stay in Philadelphia. I'm not sure which makes the most efficient use of resources.

 

[Amtrak839]

They will not. That would require replacing the prime mover, which would cost almost as much as buying a new locomotive. Not even mentioning that the P42s prime mover doesn't meet current emissions standards. If they wanted something like that, they'd find more success either going to Wabtec for MP40s (or MP42s, I suppose) or better yet going to Alstom for PL42ACs which happen to also fit into Penn Station- at least through the North River tunnels. I've seen them pulling NJTransit's Atlantic City Express from time to time instead of P40DCs.

I believe the P42 and the P40 both use the 7FDL16 prime mover. The P40s have already been upgraded to 4250 horsepower, so they are essentially P42s already. I believe there is some difference in the type of brakes used. The P40s were assigned to the Auto Train up to 2005 because the different brakes worked better on the longer heavier train. They might be installing new brakes during the overhaul, and making other modifications. When they are done, we will essentially have 15 more P42s. So does Amtrak renumber them? We'll probably just have to wait and see.

 

[AlanB]

I also wonder whether Harrisburg will become the engine change point for one or both trains, or whether that will stay in Philadelphia. I'm not sure which makes the most efficient use of resources.

I seriously doubt that Amtrak would move the engine change back west to Harrisburg again, especially for just two daily round trips. Too many costs involved and not enough work to warrant incurring those costs, while having people basically just sitting around for the bulk of the day doing nothing. And since they've already got to change ends in Philly, with a base already there, it remains the logical change point.

If 30th Street's business ramped up considerably, such that Amtrak needed to clear platforms much faster than they currently do (more like NYP) or 4 or 5 daily RT's started running with perhaps one of those not even seeing Philly, then maybe they'd consider reactivating Harrisburg as a change point.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

BTW, are you sure that the PL42s fit under 14'6"? How tall are they?

No idea what their height is, but I know they fit; I've seen one sitting on track 2 in NYP.