Amtrak Train Hits Dump Truck in Orlando

[FriskyFL]

Post on trainorders says that the driver (deceased) had gotten 23 tickets for moving violations since 2011!! It's a wonder that an Insurance Company would cover him, that the Trucking Company would Employ him, and what's up with Florida not pulling his CDL?? :help:

Guess Government shouldnt be involved in Private Enterprise right? :blink:

In Florida...ha! It's perfectly legal to text and drive. Traffic laws are mere 'suggestions' down here. Insurance, what's that? One in four drivers in this state are uninsured.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

At my last trucking company we hired students with out any experience, just with there CDL. It was a good training program. (on paper that is). Three week out in the field with a Coach, about week or so testing out, before driving away and earn there paycheck.

Some of the issues.

1) Coaches writing up the students with "do not hire" comments, but nobody notice or did anything. One of those students got lost in Mt Pleaseant Iowa, brought down a 200+\- foot bridge, it was rated 3 tons he weight in at 39 tons.

2) If you fail out of the training program, the company would not let you drive a company truck. They would let you lease a truck and work as a owner operator pulling our trailers.

.... It's a wonder that an Insurance Company would cover him, that the Trucking Company would Employ him, .....

I heavily edited Jim's comments, but to answer his points.

Insurance companies are the leading reason that trucking companies are getting very selective on who they hire. However if your willing to pay, you can find a insurance company to issue you a policy.

The truck may of been owned and operated by the driver and he was subcontract out for the job. That would mean his own insurance, and nobody checking his CSA score, or pulling a DMV check. Yes some companies will run you thur the system, but not all.

In closing I do hope the local media can and does a proper story here, but I am still waiting on several long-lead stories. Shooting at Dallas, the California Zephyr crash. So I am not holding my breath on this one.

 

[Blackwolf]

In closing I do hope the local media can and does a proper story here, but I am still waiting on several long-lead stories. Shooting at Dallas, the California Zephyr crash. So I am not holding my breath on this one.

Interestingly enough, both of these incidents are being very quietly swept beneath the rug. Neither one of them really has much presence in the search engines any longer. The only mention of the California Zephyr collision on Wikipedia are a few sentences for the California Zephyr page (of which, only about 10% is about the current train, instead focusing almost entirely on the old Burlington/Rio Grande/Western Pacific train.) Never mind that 6 people died, including 5 on the train. Now, there used to be an article on this, but it was 'edited out' by Wiki. The last incident on Amtrak that the Wikipedia editors seems to want to retain a page on is the Bourbonnais CONO disaster of 1999.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Post on trainorders says that the driver (deceased) had gotten 23 tickets for moving violations since 2011!! It's a wonder that an Insurance Company would cover him, that the Trucking Company would Employ him, and what's up with Florida not pulling his CDL?? Guess Government shouldnt be involved in Private Enterprise right?

In Florida...ha! It's perfectly legal to text and drive. Traffic laws are mere 'suggestions' down here. Insurance, what's that? One in four drivers in this state are uninsured.

Here in Texas we tried to pass a law against texting while driving (which is demonstrably more dangerous than a 0.08 alcohol intoxication level) but governor Rick Perry ® vetoed it.

 

[afigg]

Interestingly enough, both of these incidents are being very quietly swept beneath the rug. Neither one of them really has much presence in the search engines any longer. The only mention of the California Zephyr collision on Wikipedia are a few sentences for the California Zephyr page (of which, only about 10% is about the current train, instead focusing almost entirely on the old Burlington/Rio Grande/Western Pacific train.) Never mind that 6 people died, including 5 on the train. ...

The NTSB is having a board meeting on the California Zephyr accident on December 11. There are a substantial number of files, documents, technical report findings, pictures, logs posted on the NTSB Docket page for the CZ accident I think all made available in mid-September. The accident has not been "swept beneath the rug". The NTSB is very methodical in their investigations, so they take up to several years to produce a final report. There will be press coverage and news reports on the accident and findings when the board meeting is held.

 

[pennyk]

Apparently the subject intersection is very lightly traveled, and thus, not required to have crossing gates and lights, according to the Florida Highway Patrol. The tv news reported that there was an accident approximately 10 years ago at the same intersection and CSX was sued for negligence for not providing crossing gates and lights. The plaintiffs lost that case. (CSX, the defendant, won)

Jim, I think the story I heard about the 23 traffic tickets, received by the truck driver, was over a longer period of time (not since 2011), however, I may have heard it wrong.

 

[Henry Kisor]

It does make sense to withhold comment and speculation about transportation accidents until the NTSB has issued its final ruling, but we are human beings and want answers right away. In my opinion it's OK to speculate about causes, so long as we are all aware that it's just speculation and that new information may alter our conclusions.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It does make sense to withhold comment and speculation about transportation accidents until the NTSB has issued its final ruling, but we are human beings and want answers right away. In my opinion it's OK to speculate about causes, so long as we are all aware that it's just speculation and that new information may alter our conclusions.

What sort of "new information" is going to change the conclusion that size and weight of commercial vehicles makes them a uniquely serious and life threatening risk to trains of all types and only the drivers of commercial vehicles have the ability to avoid grade crossing that are unsafe or otherwise inappropriate for commercial use? Unless the train jumped the tracks and flew off down the road prior to impact this mess is entirely on the shoulders of the truck driver and his employer or contractor.

 

[TimePeace]

Interestingly enough, both of these incidents are being very quietly swept beneath the rug. Neither one of them really has much presence in the search engines any longer. The only mention of the California Zephyr collision on Wikipedia are a few sentences for the California Zephyr page (of which, only about 10% is about the current train, instead focusing almost entirely on the old Burlington/Rio Grande/Western Pacific train.) Never mind that 6 people died, including 5 on the train. ...

The NTSB is having a board meeting on the California Zephyr accident on December 11. There are a substantial number of files, documents, technical report findings, pictures, logs posted on the NTSB Docket page for the CZ accident I think all made available in mid-September. The accident has not been "swept beneath the rug". The NTSB is very methodical in their investigations, so they take up to several years to produce a final report. There will be press coverage and news reports on the accident and findings when the board meeting is held.

What an amazing report. It is an eye-opener to me to see official NTSB docs. I just read thru the interviews with the engineer and with the off-duty conductor who was vacationing with his family. It seems he is a hero, and acted with great intelligence as well as bravery.

Thanks so much for posting that link.

 

[Carolyn Jane]

Okay, walk me through the 'recovery 'phase...92 was 'Service Disruption' Friday, which means she didn't run. Is this because there were no engines available, Or the equipment wasn't in place to receive passengers? I wondered if they would add some of 91/92 cars to 98 to get them north...Maybe with passengers. Or use one of 98's engines. In fact, 98 did run with only one engine Friday. Did they just cancel the trip, or bustitute everyone? Because mid-afternoon I did experiment booking 92 from JAX to PHL, and it did not say I couldn't book it. CJ

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

That locomotive took a beating! I really hope it gets repaired instead of scrapped. But that truck was totally destroyed, so the train still won the day.

 

[crescent2]

Railroad Bill, thanks for your post. I usually just ask a bunch of questions and stay out of disagreements here. However, all of us have done careless things and not paid with our lives, so I must belatedly support the "show some compassion" group here. This is a sad thing for all involved regardless of the cause of the accident, and I'm thankful no one else was seriously hurt. But my heart goes out to the driver and his family as well as to the train crew and all others involved. The fact that truckers absolutely need to drive safely doesn't change that.

H. Kisor: Thanks for writing your book! I bought it several years ago and enjoyed reading it very much. I'm still hoping to take the Zephyr next year.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Okay, walk me through the 'recovery 'phase...92 was 'Service Disruption' Friday, which means she didn't run. Is this because there were no engines available, Or the equipment wasn't in place to receive passengers? I wondered if they would add some of 91/92 cars to 98 to get them north...Maybe with passengers. Or use one of 98's engines. In fact, 98 did run with only one engine Friday. Did they just cancel the trip, or bustitute everyone? Because mid-afternoon I did experiment booking 92 from JAX to PHL, and it did not say I couldn't book it. CJ

&

That locomotive took a beating! I really hope it gets repaired instead of scrapped. But that truck was totally destroyed, so the train still won the day.

My guess is that the lead locomotive will be held for safety and insurance inspection before being put on a lowboy flatbed for transportation back to the maintenance shops. The second locomotive may be capable of being safely transported on it's own wheels behind a loaner locomotive.

 

[X]

Okay, walk me through the 'recovery 'phase...92 was 'Service Disruption' Friday, which means she didn't run. Is this because there were no engines available, Or the equipment wasn't in place to receive passengers? I wondered if they would add some of 91/92 cars to 98 to get them north...Maybe with passengers. Or use one of 98's engines. In fact, 98 did run with only one engine Friday. Did they just cancel the trip, or bustitute everyone? Because mid-afternoon I did experiment booking 92 from JAX to PHL, and it did not say I couldn't book it. CJ

&

That locomotive took a beating! I really hope it gets repaired instead of scrapped. But that truck was totally destroyed, so the train still won the day.

My guess is that the lead locomotive will be held for safety and insurance inspection before being put on a lowboy flatbed for transportation back to the maintenance shops. The second locomotive may be capable of being safely transported on it's own wheels behind a loaner locomotive.

A ~260,000 lb Locomotive is a bit too heavy to put on a flatbed on short notice.

Repairs will almost certainly be done in place / at the nearest siding to get it capable of being towed "dead in trail" behind another locomotive, which shouldn't take all that much effort. If nesscary the locomotive can even be lifted up by a crane or sidebooms for access underneath, or the replacement of a truck, but it probably won't come to that.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Worst case the loco is loaded on a flatbed railcar and hauled that way.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

My guess is that the lead locomotive will be held for safety and insurance inspection before being put on a lowboy flatbed for transportation back to the maintenance shops. The second locomotive may be capable of being safely transported on it's own wheels behind a loaner locomotive.

A ~260,000 lb Locomotive is a bit too heavy to put on a flatbed on short notice.

Hoist it up, strap it down, and away it goes.

Transporting a heavy locomotive is a piece of cake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvyIrsZ7Zhs

Repairs will almost certainly be done in place / at the nearest siding to get it capable of being towed "dead in trail" behind another locomotive, which shouldn't take all that much effort. If nesscary the locomotive can even be lifted up by a crane or sidebooms for access underneath, or the replacement of a truck, but it probably won't come to that.

I suppose if you bent or cut the damaged portions out of the way and swapped out the leading truck with a replacement full of idlers maybe you could safely transport the lead locomotive on its own wheels again. Smashing straight into a densely built dump truck isn't the same thing as flying through the middle of a generic shoebox style shipping trailer and their could be even more damage than initially meets the eye.

Best of luck to whoever is tasked with getting her back home safe and sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQAGWo3PbZk

 

[Amtrak Cajun]

Regardless of who was at fault, we lost a fellow human being. That is the saddest outcome in any situation. I feel bad for his family, and all of those injured in this crash. I hope the injured make a full recovery.

Equipment can be replaced, human lives cannot.

 

[NE933]

Regardless of who was at fault, we lost a fellow human being. That is the saddest outcome in any situation. I feel bad for his family, and all of those injured in this crash. I hope the injured make a full recovery.

Equipment can be replaced, human lives cannot.

Yes I suppose we have to keep humanity intact, or else where does it end. I'm sorry Seeram Matadial perished, and also that the engineer crew got injured. For those who believe in afterlife visits, I hope his spirit will help others in similar situations make sound and rational decisions, since so many lives depend on it.

I was wondering if this behavior is strongly influenced by peer pressure, or group think, so that even if someone ititially stops, traffic behind him or her starts honking and even cussing for the driver to keep going. There's a thread here on AU called: 'New Talgos Moving Westward for Testing'; poster BlackWolf (howdy!) posts a YouTube clip of a Talgo going to Pueblo test center. LOOK at how many cars and SUVs carelessly drive in front of the freight engine powering the special move. Observe the jeep who almost stops, then sprints across, evidence of a consious being aware of the train folloowed by a decision to take the chance anyway. I'm sure most of us on here will be blown away by it.

 

[maxtheax]

In this case a poorly trained truck driver tried to beat the train through the crossing and paid a terrible price for it. While I feel for his family I don't feel sorry for him at all.

A truck driver is hired to take responsibility for his actions, to drive safely, to abide by the transportation company rules,to obey the traffic laws and to insure public safety. He failed miserably on all counts. I am just glad that he didn't kill anyone else by his negligence.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Regardless of who was at fault, we lost a fellow human being. That is the saddest outcome in any situation. I feel bad for his family, and all of those injured in this crash. I hope the injured make a full recovery. Equipment can be replaced, human lives cannot.

It is our concern for the loss of innocent life that infuriates those of us who are sick and tired of watching incompetent commercial vehicle drivers continue to wreck havoc and harm upon others through their own negligence.

 

[cirdan]

One locomotive damaged, the rest of Amtrak rolling stock looks OK.

Wasn't someone talking about Amtrak starting to have a shortage of diesels? :-(

shortage yes, but I don't know where "starting" comes into it.

 

[jmx53]

The people I have sympathies for are the engineer, the family and friends of the truck driver, the emergency workers who had to recover the truck driver's remains, and the passengers that were on the train.

This was a pretty good news report about this accident, and they also mention the previous accidents at this crossing and interviews regarding the forthcoming installation of crossing gates and lights at this intersection:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhzSA4uLFJ8

I was looking at the pics in this photo essay:

http://www.wesh.com/...pz/-/index.html

and had some thoughts on this accident:

Seems like this would have been a 10 wheel dump truck that typically carry 8 to 10 cubic yards of gravel...lots of weight! Photo 1 shows the 8 dual wheels which would have been at the rear of the truck. By the way the chassis and wheels are wrapped around the left side of the locomotive, the truck was travelling left to right in relation to the train and the locomotive impacted the truck in the area of the front right tire and driver's cab, which was probably lucky for the Engineer...a direct hit on the loaded dump bed would probably result in far more severe damage to the locomotive and injuries to the engineer.

Photo 9 shows lots of loose gravel scattered on and around the crossing, and photo 15 shows gravel still in the detached dump bed. Another video on WESH which showed helicopter footage of the accident train being moved later showed several fresh piles of gravel and another dump truck a few hundred feet along the tracks in the train's direction of travel on the right side. These lead me to think that the truck was heavy due to carrying a load of gravel, so there is the possibility of brake failure on the truck causing him to run past the stop sign that was for the grade crossing visible in photo 17.

The NTSB investigation (which usually takes a considerable amount of time even though today's impatient society demands immediate answers) will likely find that either:

1. there were no problems with the truck brakes, which will mean the accident fault will likely be assigned to the truck driver for running a stop sign.

2. The NTSB will find problems with the brakes, then that will either assign the blame to the trucking company or their repair shop for poor maintenence.

3. This was just a freak unpreventable mechanical failure.

4. The truck driver didn't stop because he had some sudden medical incapacitation.

5. the truck driver was distracted.

Post #32 said "In WESH 2 News tapes, you can see what they said was another southbound Amtrak train passing the accident scene. According to the reporter the 2nd train had been slowed to about 10 miles per hour to pass the accident. So there had to be double track."

Photo 4 shows the train on single track, but the lead locomotive is stopped across a switch which leads to a small yard, so what happened is that the accident was on single track, but the train was later pulled forward into a siding so that other trains could creep by the accident scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD4v1n5PVok

It's amazing that we have so many grade crossing accidents in the US! I have watched many cab ride & other train videos from all over the world and drivers seem to be much more respectful of grade crossing safety in most other countries, and they don't seem to have near as many crossing accidents as we do! (Or maybe I just haven't found many news items about them) For instance, In Japan they don't even whistle for crossings even if the crossing is ungated or has no warning chimes, but they do use the whistle to alert track workers, inattentive passengers on platforms, and often before entering tunnels or going around blind curves. Grade crossing or rail safety in general doesn't seem to be that good in India or Bangladesh though.

 

[jmx53]

In response to a couple of other posts in this thread:

Post #64 said "A ~260,000 lb Locomotive is a bit too heavy to put on a flatbed on short notice."

This video show hos this can be done. Note that it is not a lowboy trailer, but instead is the type of remote controlled wheels that they use to move heavy loads like houses, or the Space Shuttle in LA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH3MBvU2nv4

Impressive sight!

To Blackwolf Post #53, Expanding on Afigg's post #55, While it may seem that the media has forgotten about an accident due to it not being deemed 'newsworthy' anymore, rest assured that the NTSB is still investigating! These investigations typically take more than a year before they issue a final report and cause. The NTSB does post information of a number of other accidents they are currently still investigating such as the UP head-on in Goodwell, OK; the coal train derailment in Ellicott City, MD; the parade float accident in Midland, TX; and the derailment/hazmat spill in Paulsboro, NJ. They note on the right that they don't list all investigations, so that is probably why they didn't list this accident with #91. Hopefully they will eventually post the final report online. http://www.ntsb.gov/...ns/current.html

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

One locomotive damaged, the rest of Amtrak rolling stock looks OK.

Wasn't someone talking about Amtrak starting to have a shortage of diesels? :-(

shortage yes, but I don't know where "starting" comes into it.

It must have been foolish for Amtrak to mothball the P40DCs when they didn't have enough locomotives. Amtrak had more F40PHs than they do now P42DCs.

 

[X]

My guess is that the lead locomotive will be held for safety and insurance inspection before being put on a lowboy flatbed for transportation back to the maintenance shops. The second locomotive may be capable of being safely transported on it's own wheels behind a loaner locomotive.

A ~260,000 lb Locomotive is a bit too heavy to put on a flatbed on short notice.

Hoist it up, strap it down, and away it goes.

Transporting a heavy locomotive is a piece of cake.

"lowboy flatbed" to me suggests a tractor trailer rig, which certainly can't handle a P42.

As amtrakwolverine posted, it would be a flatcar that would be used if nesscary.

Repairs will almost certainly be done in place / at the nearest siding to get it capable of being towed "dead in trail" behind another locomotive, which shouldn't take all that much effort. If nesscary the locomotive can even be lifted up by a crane or sidebooms for access underneath, or the replacement of a truck, but it probably won't come to that.

I suppose if you bent or cut the damaged portions out of the way and swapped out the leading truck with a replacement full of idlers maybe you could safely transport the lead locomotive on its own wheels again. Smashing straight into a densely built dump truck isn't the same thing as flying through the middle of a generic shoebox style shipping trailer and their could be even more damage than initially meets the eye.

Best of luck to whoever is tasked with getting her back home safe and sound.

These wrecks usually end up with the locomotive looking a lot worse off than it is. The bolt on nose takes the brunt of the dammage like it's supposed to, but makes the whole front of the locomotive look destroyed. The pilot generally deflects most of the debries from going under the locomotive, and traction motors have nice thick steel cases anyway.

I'd bet money that the lead locomotive will be moved on it's own trucks with only minor work, and will be back in service within a month.