apologist, whiner, both, neither, other?

[yarrow]

quite a bit of discussion lately as to for which of us amtrak can do little wrong and which of us amtrak can do little right. i would think answers would depend on personal philosophy and experience with amtrak. so, vote if you wish and see what our predominant viewpoints are and why

 

[the_traveler]

I think many first time Amtrak riders focus too much on the bad, while experienced Amtrak rider have learned to "roll wih the punches". I'm not saying Amtrak is perfect, but you can even get caught in a traffic jam on the way to/from work!

Does that mean you won't go to work anymore?

 

[Henry Kisor]

It is easier to accept motives when the poster employs his or her real name online, even as a "guest." The famous AVSIG, the first CompuServe forum back in 1981, is still going strong as an independent forum—and it still requires real names. Cuts down a lot on the trolls.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Other. I try to be a realist, try to have realistic expectations, and try to have fun.

I do think that given the hand dealt to it, there are things Amtrak does well, and some things that it needs to improve on.

It does seem to me that one of Amtrak's largest 'challenges' is that often what it does well, and what it needs to improve on, changes from one minute to the next. Some of this is within Amtrak's control but much is not.

 

[yarrow]

i guess i am a whiner. it may be because we are on the route of the eb. it once was regarded as amtrak's premiere train. i whine because, for a myriad of reasons, it no longer is. i can't recommend amtrak to friends because if i am honest (you may be bussed, you may not make your connection, expect to be late, expect the possibility of surly emplyees)they will say no thanks. believe it or not, most people don't love trains the way we do. we took the canadian vancouver to toronto rt this year during their 75% off sale when the price was quite comparable to low bucket sleeper on amtrak. no comparison with amtrak in any way(customer service, food, equipment, otp, did i mention customer service). i don't know what the differences are in the way the two governments subsidize their systems (i know the harper govt has just made deep cuts to via)and i know the canadian, at any rate, is primarily for land cruises but i think amtrak managment could learn a lot by studying what people like about the canadian. we can blame congress, bnsf, up, cn or whomever we wish but i wish someone at amtrak managment would take responsibility and say "the buck stops here"

 

[yarrow]

It is easier to accept motives when the poster employs his or her real name online, even as a "guest." The famous AVSIG, the first CompuServe forum back in 1981, is still going strong as an independent forum—and it still requires real names. Cuts down a lot on the trolls.

i don't know quite what your point is, henry. in my case, yarrow is the name of one of our sons. we registered together for the forum in 2006 when he was, i believe, 9 years old. it's been a lot of fun for both of us

 

[rrdude]

i guess i am a whiner. it may be because we are on the route of the eb. it once was regarded as amtrak's premiere train. i whine because, for a myriad of reasons, it no longer is. i can't recommend amtrak to friends because if i am honest (you may be bussed, you may not make your connection, expect to be late, expect the possibility of surly emplyees)they will say no thanks. believe it or not, most people don't love trains the way we do. we took the canadian vancouver to toronto rt this year during their 75% off sale when the price was quite comparable to low bucket sleeper on amtrak. no comparison with amtrak in any way(customer service, food, equipment, otp, did i mention customer service). i don't know what the differences are in the way the two governments subsidize their systems (i know the harper govt has just made deep cuts to via)and i know the canadian, at any rate, is primarily for land cruises but i think amtrak managment could learn a lot by studying what people like about the canadian. we can blame congress, bnsf, up, cn or whomever we wish but i wish someone at amtrak managment would take responsibility and say "the buck stops here"

Realist, more likely. I try to "Temper" my suggestions to friends to try Amtrak. Tell them it's not for everyone, "I like it, but you may not..........."

 

[Ryan]

Other. I try to be a realist, try to have realistic expectations, and try to have fun.

Realist, more likely. I try to "Temper" my suggestions to friends to try Amtrak. Tell them it's not for everyone, "I like it, but you may not..........."

This.

It's a darn shame that having an understanding of how things work and what kinds of things are possible gets you labeled an "apologist" when people expect the impossible.

 

[TimePeace]

Other. I try to be a realist, try to have realistic expectations, and try to have fun.

Realist, more likely. I try to "Temper" my suggestions to friends to try Amtrak. Tell them it's not for everyone, "I like it, but you may not..........."

This.

It's a darn shame that having an understanding of how things work and what kinds of things are possible gets you labeled an "apologist" when people expect the impossible.

I agree. Labels are very constraining: if you call something square, it can never be round. None of us is any one thing, just as there is seldom any one reason why something is the way it is. People are a lot more complex than any one label can encompass.

I accept some blame for the "whiner" label as I frequently post my dismay at the amount of complaining about Amtrak I read here on the forum. It's a habit I am going to try to break. I still dislike it, but will acknowledge that, like anyone else, it is always my choice whether to read on or not.

Best to you all, in any case.

 

[Shanghai]

I consider myself a Happy Traveler!! I have traveled the world enough to know that there are problems in

traveling like most other events in life. Most people who get upset when things go wrong are inexperienced

travelers. I recall arriving for a flight in Sri Lanka only to be told that my flight was cancelled. I asked

when the flight was cancelled and was told - it was cancelled two weeks ago!! I try to arrange my itinerary

for some back-up time when traveling on Amtrak.

 

[Mackensen]

Other. I try to be a realist, try to have realistic expectations, and try to have fun.

Realist, more likely. I try to "Temper" my suggestions to friends to try Amtrak. Tell them it's not for everyone, "I like it, but you may not..........."

This.

It's a darn shame that having an understanding of how things work and what kinds of things are possible gets you labeled an "apologist" when people expect the impossible.

Me too, although I'm sure others consider me an apologist. That being said, the traditional definition of an apologist is someone who defends something with information, which isn't at all inaccurate, but it's got real negative connotations. I don't hold Amtrak blameless. I'm well aware it can and does screw up. I think it's important, however, that people understand the operational and financial realities Amtrak labors under. There's a lot of misinformation out there.

 

[jis]

I chose neither because in general I try to state verifiable facts and ascribable statements by others who I consider knowledgeable, while trying to stay clear of idle speculation and apportionment of blame. At least that is what I strive for, but being imperfect, do not live upto that ideal all the time. I also sometimes get my facts wrong and as soon as I learn of such, attempt to post corrections and acknowledge my mistake. In short I am no fun to have a conversation with I suppose

 

[the_traveler]

1342375086[/url]' post='380414']I consider myself a Happy Traveler!!

Just don't consider yourself "the_traveler" - one is too many!

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Labels are constraining, so if you look I clicked on all 5. I don't think lumping people into certain groups is a good thing, and just leads to conflict. Many times, I'll be an apologist, but many times I won't. For example, when the EB was so late into Chicago and there were was only 1 agent to help all of the poor passengers get into a hotel and get vouchers for food, I think that is Amtrak's fault for not being prepared. I don't consider myself a whiner for thinking Amtrak could have done better. But if we had had this same discussion last summer, I think I would've been called by some as an apologist if I said it wasn't Amtrak's fault for the flooding cancellations. I feel most of the people calling us apologists now really have nothing better to do with their time than say that we apologize on behalf of Amtrak. There are many instances where I do not fault Amtrak for something that a freight railroad will do, but there are instances where I do. Grouping people is dumb. We are not in middle school with cliques or any of that. Even I'm not.

 

[rusty spike]

"Other", because I consider myself in the "optimist" category. That optimism is very guarded however. I think the current Amtrak prez (Joe Boardman) has been effective and getting things done like the new fleet order and NEC upgrades, but knowing he is the 9th Amtrak prez in its short 40 year history and knowing that a new Board of Directors is appointed every time we eleet a new US president tempers my view. Someday when (if) Amtrak becomes truly apolitical, maybe I can let that guard down.

 

[yarrow]

Labels are constraining, so if you look I clicked on all 5. I don't think lumping people into certain groups is a good thing, and just leads to conflict. Grouping people is dumb.

my idea behind the poll was twofold: i thought it would be fun and i thought i might gain some insight into some member's "philosophy of amtrak". i don't think polls and the grouping they imply is necessarily bad. the election in november will group us by what we consider the best direction for the country. our actions group us. i'm a costco shopper, recent retiree, bicycle rider, gardener, railfan, father, etc. what's constraining and conflict inducing about that?

 

[FriskyFL]

I consider myself firmly in the "both" category. Considering the weak hand that Amtrak has been dealt continually for what, 40 years, it's amazing that we still have a more-or-less functioning passenger rail system in this country, and I'll sing Amtrak's praises whenever and wherever I can. But I'll be the first to complain vociferously when Amtrak screws up due to its own negligence or incompetence or indifference. Fortunately the opportunities to whine have been few and far between, either I've led a relatively charmed Amtrak existence or I've just let the little annoyances slide. After all, flying is certainly no joy these days.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I voted neither. I think Amtrak does what it has to do and not much else.

 

[EMDF9A]

I voted "Other" because I do understand that some things, like the freight railroads dispatching, or weather related issues aren not AMTRAK's fault and in those instances I say " Take a breath, relax, and move on".

On the other hand the indifferent or poor service in the lounge cars or in a diner, or thepoor attitude by frontline employees are completly within AMTRAK's control and I make no apologies for telling them so. There is a great need for better, more effective management onboard. Likewise the recent discussions on Comic-Con and San Diego service. AMTRAK dropped the ball by not being proactive and knowing their market.

Yes, I love train travel. Yes, I know some things are beyond the control of AMTRAK, but too many times issues with AMTRAK service as discussed here and elsewhere are 100 percent avoidable by proactive management. If it takes the pain of going up against the Unions, then thats what executive management should do (And I tend to be pro-union). Contracts are negotiated, not imposed on management.

I'll apologize for AMTRAK when things are truely not within their control. I will hold them accountable when my thirty years of hospitality management experience tells me they can do better to serve their customer.

 

[amamba]

Labels are constraining, so if you look I clicked on all 5. I don't think lumping people into certain groups is a good thing, and just leads to conflict. Many times, I'll be an apologist, but many times I won't. For example, when the EB was so late into Chicago and there were was only 1 agent to help all of the poor passengers get into a hotel and get vouchers for food, I think that is Amtrak's fault for not being prepared. I don't consider myself a whiner for thinking Amtrak could have done better. But if we had had this same discussion last summer, I think I would've been called by some as an apologist if I said it wasn't Amtrak's fault for the flooding cancellations. I feel most of the people calling us apologists now really have nothing better to do with their time than say that we apologize on behalf of Amtrak. There are many instances where I do not fault Amtrak for something that a freight railroad will do, but there are instances where I do. Grouping people is dumb. We are not in middle school with cliques or any of that. Even I'm not.

That is why there is a "both" category, which is what I clicked. Sometimes I will apologize for amtrak, when something happens that is beyond their control. Other times I will criticize them, like for poor communication with pax.

I don't think grouping people is dumb at all. That is how the world works.

 

[KayBee]

Other. I try to be a realist, try to have realistic expectations, and try to have fun.

Realist, more likely. I try to "Temper" my suggestions to friends to try Amtrak. Tell them it's not for everyone, "I like it, but you may not..........."

This.

It's a darn shame that having an understanding of how things work and what kinds of things are possible gets you labeled an "apologist" when people expect the impossible.

This as well.

Try to accept the things you can't change, fix the things you can, and know the difference between the two. (apologies to Reinhold Niebuhr for the probable misquote)

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I think the main reason I'm much more critical of Amtrak than many other folks on here is because I've seen what other train systems are capable of when they're not at the mercy of so many disinterested and detrimental parties. I honestly don't know how you can travel on Germany's DB or Japan's JR and not come back extremely disappointed with the stagnant halfhearted passenger rail system we've been stuck with for nearly a half-century now. I understand that there have been incremental improvements along a tiny handful of critical corridors, but since I'm thousands of miles away from the nearest pro-rail state those services don't have any impact on my own experiences. Many of the problems I have with Amtrak can be explained by factors beyond (or nearly beyond) their control and becoming a member here has given me substantial insight and context I would have not have been privy to otherwise.

That being said, even with all the accumulated knowledge we have among us we still seem to get stuck somewhere between describing the problem in intricate detail and figuring out a way to come up with any sort of solution. Amtrak seems to have the same basic problem we do in that regard. Then there are all the myriad of problems that would seem to be under Amtrak's direct control but never seem to receive much of their attention. For instance, my friends and my family and I have had the same lousy SCA over and over and over again and no matter how many times we complain she never seems to improve and never goes away. Sure, we all get vouchers in exchange for her bad attitude and lack of purpose but how exactly is that supposed to keep us coming back over the long term? I honestly don't understand what is preventing Amtrak from actually resolving the issue instead of just sending financial band-aids to everyone who complains.

Then there are all the various misadventures we've suffered over the last few years as we've seen several large scale passenger rail projects finally being championed by pro-rail allies only to be promptly crushed by mathematically challenged anti-rail budget hawks. If watching ideological puppets paying homage to Grover Norquist style political hacks while slashing and burning our country's mass transit future is not enough to make you cynical then I don't know what else to say. I'm still a huge fan of both modern passenger rail as well as throwback vintage rail and I probably always will be. However, Amtrak doesn't really fit into either of those categories. On the outside it's a slow and clunky tortoise compared to virtually every other form of motorized transport and on the inside it looks like a tacky fiberglass McDonald's on wheels with highly variable service levels. Maybe some day that will change, and I sincerely hope it will, but until then I really don't see what exactly is so endearing about them.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

I honestly have to say I am a big supporter of Amtrak and also a big critic of Amtrak. For all Amtrak does well, it has just as much that it needs to work on. Amtrak has loads of problems but considering the environment in which it exists it does remarkably well.

How many government entities recover ~80% of their expenses? How many corporations grow on year to year finances? How many corporations have survived 40yrs with constant threats of dissolution? The answer is few to none.

Even with Amtrak's success and survivability there is huge room for improvement. Amtrak needs to focus on what is in their control to improve. Amtrak is fully responsible for the quality of service it provides on its infrastructure and for the service it provides on board. I have experienced very good and very poor on board service. I have seen Amtrak's equipment fail en-route due to nothing more than poor maintenance. We have all heard and many have experienced where Amtrak poorly communicates during service disruptions, delays and other problems. All of these are issues under Amtrak's direct control.

Then there are things Amtrak cannot control. Congress loves to micromanage Amtrak, which in my opinion causes a lot of problems. Congress needs to set clear defined goals for Amtrak and stop the micromanagement. Amtrak cannot control how much subsidy it gets. Amtrak cannot control whether its trains get thrown into a siding to let freight trains pass or whether it is given priority. Amtrak cannot control states who contract for service with them. These things Amtrak has a say in but in the end is just a suggestion and carries little to no weight.

Then you have things like weather disrupting service, people driving through crossing gates, trespassers being hit, and those who choose to use a train to end their life. No one can control the weather and everyone is subject to others poor decisions.

So I chose other. I give Amtrak support where it is warranted, and criticism where there is room for improvement. I support rail as whole, freight and passenger, regardless of who operates it. I believe rail is the most efficient mode of transportation and should make up a larger portion of our transportation system. Because Amtrak is essentially the only operator of passenger trains in the US, I have to support it.

We once has a great passenger rail system operated by many companies, now we have Amtrak with a very skeletal network. We as a nation can and should do better. We created the problem by heavily subsidizing road and air transportation which threw the natural balance of the free market off by artificially lowering to cost of driving and flying. Railroads responded by cutting passenger trains, ripping up track, selling off routes, and merging together and in the process they found every efficiency available to keep freight profitable. What's done is done, the only way to fix the problem is to equally invest in all modes of transportation and play to each one's strengths. Transportation is no longer a fully self sustaining industry. All modes are subsidized in some way.

There is obvious demand for passenger trains, because of this I think Amtrak has a bright future. If Amtrak continues to raise revenue and ridership while controlling cost, I think we will see the day where Amtrak can become fully self sufficient and operate as a real for profit company.

 

[Railroad Bill]

As riders on Amtrak only since 2007 we certainly do not have much perspective into how things were back in the early years. We have never ridden on European trains or even Canadian ones, so there is no direct comparison, other than those on this forum who have done so.

Of the 40,000 miles we have ridden on Amtrak I must say that the vast majority of those have been very pleasant and enjoyable. We have had a few bad SCAs and a few dining car attendants who needed an attitude adjustment, but that seems to be true of most organizations.

If we evaluate the scenery, the decent food and dining in the dining car, usually fun times in the lounge cars, lots of fun in the sleepers (both roommettes and bedrooms) and the chance to meet new people from all over the country and the world, then I would say that Amtrak for us had been a great experience.

We have never been busituted, never missed our connection to another train, never been so late that it really mattered--- so our view may be skewed by our positive experiences-- but when and if it does happen, I hope we have the attitude that "sometimes S---T happens!" :help:

I have recommended Amtrak to friends. Most of those who took our advice had a great time and want to ride again. But one couple just didn't find it to their liking and probably will never ride again. Thus, it depends on your expectations and your sense of adventure :lol:

As for us, we are looking forward to our Sept. trip on the CZ, our Oct trip to Philly to see the gang again, and our first Auto Train ride in January. Retirement is really nice, especially when you are on a train.

 

[fillyjonk]

I would not consider myself to be either, also. There are a lot of things Amtrak currently gets "right." There are a number of things they get "wrong." And then there are some things that go wrong that are beyond their control - like the problems with freights on the line or (as seems to be a common problem on the TE) dispatchers for UP who are on break or asleep at the switch or something.

Just as I don't blame the waiter if my food is cooked incorrectly by the chef, I think it's too much to blame Amtrak for weather issues or shared-track issues.

Car maintenance, on the other hand, I'm less forgiving of. And I've been on a few poorly-maintained cars, including one where the AC pooped out.

Also, individual Amtrak employees are like employees everywhere: some care a lot about their jobs and try to do right by the passengers, some are punching the clock, some are incompetent, some are hostile. I've been lucky that most of the ones I've encountered fall into the first category.