Seaboarder3023
Train Attendant
Can someone catch me up on why people think the Star is getting truncated to Washington please, and for how long? I don't understand why Amtrak would cut themselves back from 2 NY-FL trains to just one.
Atlantic Coast (Silver/Palmetto/Carolinian) Service discussion Q4 2023 - 2024 H1
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Cutting it back to WAS-TPA-MIA.
Two theories, either, or even both, may be true.
1. Help reduce traffic in East River Tunnels, since one set is going down for repairs.
2. Replace Superliner Capitol Limited consists with single level Silver Star consists WAS-CHI. Capitol sleeper inventory reflects a Viewliner inventory pattern effective 11/9-10, the same time as sales get blocked WAS-NYP on the Star.
WAS-NYP has no shortage of trains. Losing that segment of the only long distance service in the country that has more than one train a day, a segment with no lack of alternative rail connections, isn't exactly the end of the world. Northeast Corridor Florida bound passengers, and vice-versa, can probably adjust.
If the Capitol will be running with the Star's consist, the change is likely to be permanent. Or at least until the proposed new long distance fleet acquisition arrives. That's pretty much the next best thing to "permanent".
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If the issue is the new tunnel project in Baltimore, why not just have the SS skip Baltimore? After all, freight trains don't go through the Amtrak Baltimore tunnels. And also, how is the SM getting through the tunnels?
jb
jb
JamesWhitcombRiley
Lead Service Attendant
What issues would those be?
You cannot book it past a certain day north of WAS.
SM is single-level, so no problem. Running a new route takes a long negotiation, though I guess temporary diversions take place out west. Most East Coast ports drive a lot of freight rail traffic.
thefirewarde
Train Attendant
There's also a utilization issue, a scheduled 26 hour layover is getting removed from the schedule with this change. And the extra single level equipment is mostly stuff Amtrak isn't desperately short of.
jis
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It is not about Baltimore. It is about East River Tunnel in New York.
But if I believe all the evidence that I see it is about through running with Capitol Limited which releases a bunch of Superliners for places where they have better utility and incidentally providing a single seat ride between Midwest and the Atlantic Coast down to Florida.
I think a "Capitol Star" would be the smart way to do it, but Amtrak might well decide to run the consist through but not the passengers, keeping them as two separate services.
Would there be union issues to running it through? Like which crew base gets the jobs on a "Capitol Star"? Miami/Hialeah or Chicago?
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jis
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The latest rumor that I have heard even has a train number associated with the new through train. So I think it will be a through train, though as with everything Amtrak, you never know for sure until the proverbial "Fat lady sings".
I think a "Capitol Star" would be the smart way to do it, but Amtrak might well decide to run the consist through but not the passengers, keeping them as two separate services.
I suppose the crews could remain the same. Wouldn’t be the worse thing to have the OBS crew change at Washington. Although certainly more efficient if the crew ran through as total trip time not that much different than a 2 night western train. Perhaps something innovative (not likely) with half crews out of Chicago and other half from Miami.
That could also help explain why the current ARROW changes to the Star are only sales blocks WAS-NYP and not a change to truncating 91/92 to WAS. If an entirely "new" train is replacing it, it makes sense to just block sales to points not served on the "old" but leaving it intact until the "new" service is opened within the system. Then transfer existing reservations on 29/30 and 91/92 to the "new" train.
Kinda hope it would be one crew for the whole trip out of Miami/Hialeah, because the Star is staffed for Traditional Dining and maybe Traditional would return WAS-CHI in that case.
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Well, it looks very much like it will be a single consist in any case, whether or not they sell through tickets on it. So it will have the same timekeeping attributes either way.
At 2046 miles it'll be in the same distance/time range, though a couple hundred miles shorter, as the western LDs at 2200-2400 miles. I imagine the timekeeping will be similar to those as it will have about the same level of exposure to enroute difficulties.
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This:
They are shutting down one of the bores for major maintenance, drastically reducing capacity.
Taking any opportunity to reduce train moves under the East River while capacity is restricted, combined with improving equipment utilization and freeing up scarce Superliners for the Western trains makes a for a pretty darn good case.
Of course, it could all fall apart like the Southwest Chief/Capitol Limited run through consist scheme did many years ago, too.
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west point
Engineer
OK boys and girls. The East River tunnel bores are very similar to the North river tunnel bores as both were constructed at the same time by the PRR. East River opened September 1910 and North river opened November 1910. Each East River bore is separate from the others and have no cross connection that would be required under today's fire codes. The tunnel bores are numbered 1 - 4 north to south . The track numbers are not the same as the tunnel numbers.
Tunnels numbered 1 & 2 took the most damage from Sandy flooding as I believe 3 & 4 had a large water filled balloon type that blocked most of Sandy's flooding. So, Amtrak is planning to start with tunnel #1 rehabbing and continue with #2. Hopefully Amtrak will not find anything that will be needed for 3 & 4. What is interesting is here Amtrak has 6 almost identical cast iron tunnel bores that all will need rehabbing sooner or later. Only the parts of those tunnel not buried beneath rivers will be different.
One of the tubes is being closed for rehabilitation soon. Any trains between Sunnyside Yard and NYP use the tunnels. It's part of the reason for the change to fixed seating: so some runs don't have to be wyed in the yard and take up a slot in the tunnels.
I don't think they wye them, I think they are looped, but that doesn't change the usage of the tubes. If the Empire stuff was double ended, that would have a big impact, I know they don't have the DMs for that, and they are cab car adverse in those tubes. Not that they have those available either.
IMO, the biggest loss is the loss of checked baggage to/from NYP & intervening stations.
Right. Whereas 29 currently connects to the Southwest Chief or the other western trains, I'm doubtful the new train will be able to.
jb
I am surprised the Cardinal did not also get the axe north of DC. With its miniature consist, it is low hanging fruit, and never was a big passenger hauler when it was larger.
If this will go on for 3 years, 18 months per ER tube, I would reroute the Capitol Star via Philly, assuming NS would not have a nervous breakdown west of Harrisburg. For the $200 million ransom they are getting for a 2nd Pennsylvanian, they shouldn't. Getting oneself from New York and New Jersey to Philly is very easy and would offer a one seat ride to both Florida and Chicago.
Intermediate ridership between WAS and PGH does not amount to much, and could get a Thruway bus. The only place that has halfway decent ridership is Cumberland, and it is half as much as either Altoona or Johnstown. The Washington section of the Broadway Ltd until the early 1980's also went that way
If this will go on for 3 years, 18 months per ER tube, I would reroute the Capitol Star via Philly, assuming NS would not have a nervous breakdown west of Harrisburg. For the $200 million ransom they are getting for a 2nd Pennsylvanian, they shouldn't. Getting oneself from New York and New Jersey to Philly is very easy and would offer a one seat ride to both Florida and Chicago.
Intermediate ridership between WAS and PGH does not amount to much, and could get a Thruway bus. The only place that has halfway decent ridership is Cumberland, and it is half as much as either Altoona or Johnstown. The Washington section of the Broadway Ltd until the early 1980's also went that way
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It's also got fairly bad times at NYP, leaving before 7 am and arriving after 10 pm.
I've thought about using it to connect to/from New York myself, but the times are just a PITA. I usually end up on the LSL or occasionally a Regional and the Cap.
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It seems to me that at least until we can get Superliner coaches off the Pacific Surfliners and the Illini and Saluki, we've got to find a way to get more Superliners out west. I think Amtrak got the message from Congress that Amtrak is underserving the west, partly because it has way too many long-distance cars off the western long-distance trains and is thus suppressing ridership and revenue. Plus, if you look at the equipment utilization from the proposed Star-Cap consolidation, it's way more efficient than what's being done now. That does assume that there's enough down time in DC to make up for late trains.
To your point- performance for Silver Star arrival in Washington for May and June was not great. Average arrival delay about 1.5hrs with a median delay of 2 hrs.
If they thru-routed the Capitol with the Meteor instead, they would multiple hours in DC to make up time.
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