Auto Train Cuts

[TVRM610]

Does Rocky Mountaineer use their 41 car consist on a run anywhere in the US? Or do you now consider Canada to be part of the US?

It is also worth remembering that Canadian HEP and Amtrak HEP are somewhat different.

Not a 41 car consist... but Mountaineer does run into Seattle, presumably with a power car to provide HEP to the train. It would be interesting to know how that works with the FRA regulations.

Personally.. even without the FRA regulations I don't see why Amtrak would want to use a locomotive just to power a lounge car on the Auto Train. Doesn't make sense in my book.. the lounge car already loses money... adding a diesel locomotive per consist plus the actual diesel fuel...

 

[Northeastern292]

It sounds like with these cuts, there won't be a need for a 5th coach. That'll save more money. In fact, to save a LOT of money, get rid of the sleepers, get rid of the diners, get rid of the lounges, and just operate coaches. Then, you'll only need about 8 car carriers because of the lack of ridership, and only two onboard crew - a single coach attendant and a conductor.

I was chastised without mercy on suggesting improvements to the Auto Train service with all kinds of replies such as "Don't mess with something that's actually making money".

Well, they are making changes, and it's going to kill the AT.

Again, this is the only train in the system where everyone is an end to end rider, and it travels during the evening when everyone wants to sleep. EVERYONE would prefer to sleep horizontal but price points drive many riders to take coach.

Run sectionals, tweak UP the cost of coach to cover, and keep the First Class vs. Sectional (ala coach class) differences in service, and this train will only continue to help subsidize the rest of the system.

Again, other than in personnell, I would argue that Amtrak doesn't have an expense problem, they have a revenue problem.

Part of it is PRIIA has done more to hurt Amtrak than help. Congress has NOT let Amtrak do its job. Hopefully the damage will be short lived and Amtrak will tell Congress that "no perks, no revenue".

And of course the airlines are going to have lower costs. Amtrak's engineers and conductors probably earn more than a fifth year regional airline pilot.

The HEP limitation comes from the current limitations on the wires that run from car to car.

OK. That's fairly annoying. It sounds like the original HEP system was not designed properly back in the 1970s -- I suppose they thought "nobody will ever have a train this long again"? Stupid. Anyway...

The only way to fix it is to put a locomotive (or generator car) in between the passenger cars and the auto racks and have part of the consist fed from the front and part of the consist fed from the back.

Sounds easy.

However, FRA regs say that you have to be able to cut off HEP from the operating cab, which you can't do if you're running the train on two separate systems.

FRA regs again. I wonder what accident caused this regulation? Probably no accident, probably just the usual nonsense. Railroading attracts people on the autism spectrum (I should know) and people on the autism spectrum tend to like hard, bright-line rules even when they're inappropriate (I should know).

MU cables aren't set up to control HEP, so you'd have to either rig up some type of alternative control mechanism

Cheap. Easy. Simple. I could get it working absolutely reliably in a month, and it would be under a million dollars to equip the fleet. More and more plugs have been added between cars over the years, and it's not really work to add another one for *control circuitry*, which is easy compared to pressurized air or high voltage power. The problem of getting the system certified through the various layers of red tape, of course, would probably take years.....

or pay someone to ride in the locomotive/generator car to cut off the HEP if needed.

There's a conductor, isn't there? And an assistant conductor? This is the sort of thing they do on freight trains, isn't it?

Neither one of which is cheap, which is why it hasn't happened yet.

I dispute the claim that these are not cheap. I say they are in fact cheap, but they are difficult to implement due to layers of regulations and rules.

Here's an alternative proposal, which shouldn't hit the regulatory thicket. The limitation on HEP is apparently driven by air conditioning. The air conditioning systems in the Superliners are over 30 years old. Replace them with modern air conditioning, save energy, and allow the HEP to extend over more cars. This would be more expensive but would have long-term payback.

Let's not bring Sheldon Cooper into this.... Then again, I don't know this story, so....

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I am sure the FRA reg about the control the Hotel power from the cab are reference a derailment and Fire Rescue EMS interaction with the train.

No need to electrocute the 911 people because nobody knew there was two power generating sources to the train.

Had a training course up in Windsor Locks CT, which had info about the third rail and its hazards. Nice info but just not a issue in that area of the state.

 

[jis]

Does Rocky Mountaineer use their 41 car consist on a run anywhere in the US? Or do you now consider Canada to be part of the US?

It is also worth remembering that Canadian HEP and Amtrak HEP are somewhat different.

Not a 41 car consist... but Mountaineer does run into Seattle, presumably with a power car to provide HEP to the train. It would be interesting to know how that works with the FRA regulations.
Personally.. even without the FRA regulations I don't see why Amtrak would want to use a locomotive just to power a lounge car on the Auto Train. Doesn't make sense in my book.. the lounge car already loses money... adding a diesel locomotive per consist plus the actual diesel fuel...

Actually Amtrak itself has used power cars in the past. This was during the transition from self generating cars to HEP. When Amfleet trains were pulled by GG-1s they had a pwoer car to provide power. I think at that time the requirement was that the power car had to be staffed by an individual who controlled the HEP system, since it could not be controlled by the engineer. So net net it required one more person to staff the train.

 

[neroden]

Actually Amtrak itself has used power cars in the past. This was during the transition from self generating cars to HEP. When Amfleet trains were pulled by GG-1s they had a pwoer car to provide power. I think at that time the requirement was that the power car had to be staffed by an individual who controlled the HEP system, since it could not be controlled by the engineer. So net net it required one more person to staff the train.

It's not unreasonable to require *someone* to be permanently "near the switch" to cut it off. It's also not difficult to wire up a remote control line, for what is already basically a captive fleet.
Thinking about this, I'm wondering whether Amtrak is still chafing under the CSX "50-car" limitation, which is truly arbitrary.

Someone explained up above that they believe Amtrak can handle one more coach with the existing number of autoracks (which surprised me.)

In that case, the problem is probably the 50 car limit. If adding a power car would require removing an autorack, then of course the problems become obvious. What you want to do is to add a power car, several coaches, maybe another lounge and table car, and likely a couple of autoracks, all at once. The extra staffing pays for itself, the retrofitting is cheap enough, and it's really fairly straightforward *if you're allowed to make the train that long*.

But if the "50 car limit" is still in place, then Amtrak is stuck: for every car it adds, it must remove something. This would be binding in a way in which the HEP limit isn't. But it's a much stupider limit. There is obviously no technical reason for such an arbitrary, round number. Longer than the sidings? Occupying multiple blocks at once? The Class Is run freight trains like that all the damn time, so that's no excuse.

 

[Allypet]

I just called Amtrak because I have rooms booked in 2 different cars for my July AT trip. They called me the other day to see if I wanted to move them to the same car. I declined at that time because I knew, or thought I knew, where my cars were in relation to the location of the lounge and the diner. After reading this thread I wasn't sure so I called them to see where my cars would wind up in relation to each other.

Today the agent did confirm that the sleeper lounge is being removed to add a coach. But I couldn't get a straight answer on where the 2 cars are now located in relation to each other or the rest of the train. I guess I will have to wait until someone posts the new consist so I can make a decision whether to stay put or move both my rooms into a different car. At least its now official.

 

[FormerOBS]

Apologies to all for a couple minor errors/misstatements.

Carolyn Jane: I understood that the 50-car maximum on Auto Train included locomotives. More recently, I have heard that it does not include the locos.

To all: As I said above, I'm not qualified to answer the q

 

[FormerOBS]

Sorry. Above prematurely posted. To continue:

I'm not qualified to discuss the question of adding an additional loco for HEP. Many years ago, power cables were blown when the number of cars grew too great and HEP power demand exceeded a certain level.

CREW DORM: My recollections about the Auto Train lounge cars was based entirely on memory, and it's mostly accurate. I am trying to contact some folks who have access to more reliable info and I will post corrections or clarifications if and when I get them.

Allypet: I understand that you were disappointed, but your posting used terms like "so-so", "terrible", "crappy", and "nasty", without any specifics. Bad travel experiences do happen, even as we try to prevent them. Without something specific, I can't respond.

To all: Many comments have been made by people who obviously have no experience in onboard meal service delivery on a busy, 70-mph train. Concerns about space constraints are being ignored or brushed aside. There is delivery and stowage of supplies to consider; the reliance on a finite supply of such basics as water for cooking, hand washing, dish washing, etc. There is safe storage of trash until it can be removed from the train. There is the fact that travelers do not always want a particular service at the time that is best for the attendants to provide it.

Now that the fifth coach is in service on the train and a fourth dinner service has been started, it has become difficult to keep meal seatings on time. They were theoretically reduced from 2 hours (5:00; 7:00; and 9:00) to 1 hr. 30 minutes (4:30; 6:00; 7:30; and 9:00), but each meal service has tended to take about 1 hr. 45 minutes minimum, so that the last seating has frequently been starting around 9:45 or 10:00 pm. This has required the crew to rush through their work and frequently give up any meal break for themselves. A number of crew members have expressed concern about the inherent safety concerns and their own health. There is concern that removal of the lounge will mean a dramatic increase in foot traffic through three busy, crowded dining cars during meal service. Additionally, there have been times when obs staff have had to resort to a waiting list for people waiting for breakfast. Without the extra lounge car, where will they wait?

Hopefully, Management will address these issues.

 

[Allypet]

OBS. Thank you for your reply. About my comments about so-so and nasty, I'm sorry that was wasn't more specific. Other then just some general nastiness I will point out 2 events that happened to me. The first is during one trip I noticed the wine lady, as we like to call her, offering my 17 year old son wine during dinner, and of course he said yes! So she served him. I would have thought they would by a little more cautious about who they serve.

The other event was after dinner, the server was throwing plates down on the tables all night was was rude in her demeanor. I decided to have jello for desert after dinner. I was served while I was having a pleasant conversation with our table mates. When the jello arrived our server placed the jello on the table she then asked if I wanted whipped cream, and I said yes. She slammed it on the table and stood there. I really didn't pay any mind to this, but in retrospect I guess she was waiting for me to use it. After a few seconds she snatches the can of whipped cream off the table. I guess she thought I wanted her to put the cream on top, which I didn't, I was just talking, and I didn't know there was a time limit on whipped cream. When I saw her do this and the look on her face, I immediately said, that's ok, I'll do it, she then slams the can back down on the table, but she catches the edge of the jello bowl causing it to flip over and the jello flew over the table and me.

I was mortified. All the tables around were commenting on how nasty she was. I refused another jello and left. Just for the record I didn't make a scene, or make a complain. I just left.

 

[FormerOBS]

Allypet: I can't and won't try to justify either of those incidents. One reason I chose not to bid on the wine tasting job is that I don't like to guess at people's ages and it's often hard to tell. When I have served wine, I have always asked for ID when I have had any question at all, and I think that's true of everybody on my particular crew. As for the whipped cream incident, it was just plain wrong. I hope you complained. Those things do not represent the attitudes and practices that have characterized the Auto Train during my 25+ years, and we veterans DO NOT approve of anyone who sullies our reputation. We have worked too hard to build that reputation.

Nathanael: Are you seriously proposing that we replace the AC systems on all of the A-T's passenger cars? That's 34 cars in service, plus the spares kept in reserve to cover shop time. Because of the unique design of the Superliners, they would all have to be custom-built. Big news: Amtrak doesn't own a gold mine. Besides, I don't know whether that would reduce the strain on the cables sufficiently. As I said, it's not my field.

Sorry. I shouldn't be snarky, but I couldn't resist.

 

[jimhudson]

Thanks for the info from one on the front lines! Since the AT has its own Seniority List will the LSAs who worked the cut Lounge be moved to work the Coach or to the Diner to help with the crush that is sure to come with the additional passengers from the added Coach?

I don't think regular AT riders will like these nickel and dime cheesy cuts and think the complaints will be many @ the prices that Amtrak charges for this Downgraded Service! Keep us Posted!

 

[neroden]

Now that the fifth coach is in service on the train and a fourth dinner service has been started, it has become difficult to keep meal seatings on time. They were theoretically reduced from 2 hours (5:00; 7:00; and 9:00) to 1 hr. 30 minutes (4:30; 6:00; 7:30; and 9:00), but each meal service has tended to take about 1 hr. 45 minutes minimum, so that the last seating has frequently been starting around 9:45 or 10:00 pm. This has required the crew to rush through their work and frequently give up any meal break for themselves. A number of crew members have expressed concern about the inherent safety concerns and their own health. There is concern that removal of the lounge will mean a dramatic increase in foot traffic through three busy, crowded dining cars during meal service. Additionally, there have been times when obs staff have had to resort to a waiting list for people waiting for breakfast. Without the extra lounge car, where will they wait?

Predictable results. Hell, I predicted it upthread.

Hopefully, Management will address these issues.

I certainly hope so. It seems like piss-poor planning on management's part. This is a good way to drive patronage away and force reduced prices.

Nathanael: Are you seriously proposing that we replace the AC systems on all of the A-T's passenger cars? That's 34 cars in service, plus the spares kept in reserve to cover shop time. Because of the unique design of the Superliners, they would all have to be custom-built. Big news: Amtrak doesn't own a gold mine.

Well, in the long run, it's replace the A/C or replace the Superliners. Which is what Amtrak's planning to do, I suppose. I believe the Viewliner A/C (and everything else) is a lot easier to retrofit due to the modular design. Arguably it's not worth spending a penny on Superliner retrofits and they should just be scrapped and replaced.

But if Amtrak is going to keep the Superliners around -- if Amtrak can't afford to replace them -- then they're going to need some major retrofits fairly soon anyway. Retrofitting the A/C is a very logical retrofit because it could have very large energy savings. Most A/C from the 1970s uses something like 1.5 times the electricity of modern A/C, for the same result. This is a big energy efficiency difference.

Besides, I don't know whether that would reduce the strain on the cables sufficiently. As I said, it's not my field.

I don't know that either because I don't know what percentage of the strain is actually from the A/C. But as I say, the energy efficiency savings is enormous. Switching to LED lighting would have large savings as well and might be easier to retrofit.
Of course, all this is moot if the real limit is the 50-car limit rather than the HEP limit.

====

Further question about the dining car service, if you don't mind. Is the first limitation on speed *number of tables*, *waiters*, *cooking staff*, or *kitchen facilities*?

From the description of the situation, I strongly suspect that the limitation is either number of tables or waiters. If it's number of tables, Amtrak should add a second table car. If it's waiters (I forget Amtrak's technical term), hire another waiter. (I've seen Amtrak trains where the tables in the dining car are seriously underused -- half empty at any given time -- basically due to lack of waiters to fill and clear them. Inefficient.)

It gets harder if it's possible to seat everyone but the food can't come out of the kitchen fast enough. If the limitation is cooking staff, then go ahead and hire an assistant chef. If it's kitchen facilities, then that gets substantially more complicated and expensive to address, obviously.

There are economies of scale at all levels. Adding a table car (with no additional staff) is a pretty cheap way to expand diner capacity, for instance, if that's what works. Even adding a waiter still leverages economies of scale if you're using the same sized kitchen staff.

 

[FormerOBS]

On the Auto Train, all onboard service attendants are qualified to work all positions with one exception: Chef. Even so, many are qualified for Chef as well. Those who work the Lead Service Attendant (LSA) positions in the sleeper lounges on the five crews will continue in their positions until the jobs (and the lounge cars) are abolished. This will happen around the time that all jobs go up for semiannual re-bid. All will bid on the jobs they want on the crews they prefer, and the person with the highest seniority gets the job he/she wants. Since there won't be so many lounge LSA jobs, those who are displaced will get their second, third, fourth, etc. choices. Ultimately, some will end up on the extra board. I don't know whether they will stay on the board, possibly working less often, or if they will be furloughed. Until recently, the crew size has been adjusted when the passenger count goes over a certain number. Crews have been told from now on there will be no increase in crew size, no matter what the passenger count.

 

[Allypet]

FormerOBS. It is terrible that Amtrak is deciding to go this route. I am going to miss the sleeper lounge car, I used it all the time. I like hanging out in it with my family and sometimes even watched the cheesy movies. I did however couldn't help but notice that sales have been on the slow side and wondered how long that would last. I did not notice that the car was empty, in fact on all my AT trips the car was crowded. When they decided to charge for priority off loading, I took advantage of that. I felt that I was helping Amtrak make money and I received something in return. I like the extras, and don't mind paying.

What do you mean there wont be an increase in crew size? Are you saying that dining car staff wont be increased, or will Amtrak go as far as not adding car attendants when addition cars are added? Either way I think this is petty thinking on their part.

 

[user 1215]

A "solution" that's completely impractical isn't a solution.

Unless you know where Amtrak can come up with the money for the rolling stock to make it happen.

Hmmm... They are finding two more coaches when they want to. It's not like they're converting the lounges...

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Please, Venturforth, don't be a nitwit. Finding two cars and finding enough cars for what you are proposing is two different things.

 

[FormerOBS]

They found 2 coaches to add to a train that will be able to run with them close to capacity. I don't know where they found them. Maybe an adjustment of maintenance schedule that allows cars to spend more time on the road in between trips to the shop. Maybe from another train where they were not running at full capacity. Maybe something else. That does not mean Amtrak can find a spare car whenever they want to or need to.

As for the decision not to increase the crew size in response to higher passenger counts, I'm just repeating what the crews have been told by Management. I can't accurately predict how this will work out.

 

[Ryan]

It's easier to be a nitwit than to defend the indefensible.

 

[user 1215]

Seriously, GML - shut up.

And Ryan, you're something I can't mention here. You've pissed off enough new members...

FormerOBS, a polite and reasonable response, though they did just that - come up with two new coaches.

I've stated over and over again in my previous threads that you can ween into a slumbercoach/sectional type of coach over time. One at a time. Not go off and buy 10 brand new purpose built superliners at once and replace them. Someone else already mentioned that there are "spares" for maintenance being held in Sanford...

But that's ok. Resort to calling names & attacks. So effective. How many folks have blocked you or don't come back here because of you?

What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up. Let's not mess with "The forumla". So what do they do? They mess with the formula.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Eh, I told myself that if three people tell me in a reasonable way to shut up and go away, I'll shut up and go away. You're number one. I wonder if there will be a number two and three?

 

[Paulus]

FormerOBS, a polite and reasonable response, though they did just that - come up with two new coaches.

I've stated over and over again in my previous threads that you can ween into a slumbercoach/sectional type of coach over time. One at a time. Not go off and buy 10 brand new purpose built superliners at once and replace them. Someone else already mentioned that there are "spares" for maintenance being held in Sanford...

You do need to start with probably half a dozenish cars at once in order to have them available for all sets, protection, and maintenance scheduling.

What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up. Let's not mess with "The forumla". So what do they do? They mess with the formula.

Half of the endpoint to endpoint riders on the Western LDTs ride in coach, multiple nights each. What exactly is indefensible about having half of the riders sitting halfway up on a single overnight?

 

[user 1215]

Eh, I told myself that if three people tell me in a reasonable way to shut up and go away, I'll shut up and go away. You're number one. I wonder if there will be a number two and three?

You're quite charasmatic, so you will maintain your following. Even I enjoy most of your writings and am happy to see you back here. I don't even want you to go away. But you and Ryan's tendicies to shoot first and aim later (if ever) seems to (me) erase the sensible stuff you have to say.

FormerOBS, a polite and reasonable response, though they did just that - come up with two new coaches.

I've stated over and over again in my previous threads that you can ween into a slumbercoach/sectional type of coach over time. One at a time. Not go off and buy 10 brand new purpose built superliners at once and replace them. Someone else already mentioned that there are "spares" for maintenance being held in Sanford...

You do need to start with probably half a dozenish cars at once in order to have them available for all sets, protection, and maintenance scheduling.

I suspect you need three - one per train with one in the shop. Don't even need the one in the shop so long as spares are available.

What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up. Let's not mess with "The forumla". So what do they do? They mess with the formula.

Half of the endpoint to endpoint riders on the Western LDTs ride in coach, multiple nights each. What exactly is indefensible about having half of the riders sitting halfway up on a single overnight?

I've been a big advocate on having 2nd class sleepers on all LD routes, but I understand that there are cost implications. The uniqueness of the AT is that EVERY rider is end to end. There is no NEED for coach because everyone is riding from end to end, and the trip is overnight.

 

[FormerOBS]

I'm not sure what's being suggested about the pool of spare equipment. It's there so that the train will always have enough equipment available to run fully equipped every day. The "spares" are not just sitting there. They undergo routine maintenance so they can be cut in when it's time for another car to be cycled through maintenance. Is somebody suggesting that 100% of the equipment should be on the road 100% of the time, without any down time for maintenance? If so, I'm glad you're not in charge.

 

[oldtimer]

Seriously, GML - shut up.

And Ryan, you're something I can't mention here. You've pissed off enough new members...

I've stated over and over again in my previous threads that you can ween into a slumbercoach/sectional type of coach over time. One at a time. Not go off and buy 10 brand new purpose built superliners at once and replace them. Someone else already mentioned that there are "spares" for maintenance being held in Sanford...

But that's ok. Resort to calling names & attacks. That's the liberal way...

What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up. Let's not mess with "The forumla". So what do they do? They mess with the formula.

First of all the members that you criticize are very knowledgeable, and their ideas are supported by another member that has actual working knowledge of the day to day situation, not weaning nostalgia for 40+ years ago. I can also speak from 35+ years of work experience on Amtrak mechanical equipment.

I know that Amtrak's current fleet is stretched to the limit and also wore out. Don't talk about the Canadian or Ed Ellis's Iowa Pacific. These fleets either have many replacements and parts salvaged from a large fleet of retired cars, or in the Iowa Pacific just rebuilt and still are used on a limited mileage basis compared to Amtrak's fleet.

RCM is easy when you have a new fleet or one that is already at 100% when it is implemented. It also depends on having the tools, parts and time to properly service the equipment. This is not available probably outside of the Acela program that has separate mechanical facilities with routine service procedures and extra long layovers on a regular rotation to complete service.

Another problem is that the mechanical forces are retiring at a record pace. Where do you go to find a qualified railroad car-repairman, nowhere, as other carriers pay more than Amtrak and some even have greater benefits. The same is true for electricians, pipefitters, plumbers and other crafts. Training takes people away from production, so it is highly discouraged. It can shorten the time needed to make a good railroader but even with the training it still takes time to make a railroader, not a skill commonly taught today.

Let me end my rant now, and name calling has been done by many people with a political objective. Liberal is a dirty word to many with that political point of view. There are political guidelines set out by our founder, Anthony, many need to read them please.

 

[user 1215]

I don't think anyone suggested that - certainly not me. Amtrak is pulling (from somewhere) two (or three) Superliner coaches to add to the AutoTrain.

I've been attacked, villified, and been attacked without mercy suggesting that Amtrak convert (over time) the coaches to high capacity semi-private sleepers in the style of slumbercoaches or sectionals. The attacks came from "Where are they going to get the money" and "Where are they going to get these coaches".

Seems like Amtrak has a way of finding what they want when they need it.