BART police

[homersimpson101]

Is there a reason why there isn't a police officer on every train running in the BART system? It would only take around 50 more officers in order for each train set (there are a total of 50 train sets running each day) to have one stationed officer in order to protect passengers from criminals. Why hasn't this been done?

 

[Tlcooper44]

Is there a reason why there isn't a police officer on every train running in the BART system? It would only take around 50 more officers in order for each train set (there are a total of 50 train sets running each day) to have one stationed officer in order to protect passengers from criminals. Why hasn't this been done?

There’s a rather detailed and long thread just closed called transit and crime.

The reality is there is not a consensus on exactly what should be done regarding transit and crime. But here’s a couple takeaways:

- Reporting for crime on transit is overblown, and its really not that bad. Im still of the opinion that it’s way worse than it should be, but it’s still worlds safer than driving - and for that matter, car related crime.

- Increased police presence might help; we did not come to a consensus on that, and people having differing opinions. But the factors that lead to exceedingly safe, S-tier transit in Asian and European cities are very difference and diverse, and don’t include increased police presence necessarily. In my mind, it has more to do with a homogenous society, a collective responsibility, and people being more transit literate. What should definitely happen however, is increased staff with transit in general.

My personal opinion is that increased police presence might help, but only for a time. Many other things will have to be done to improve the safety of California transit (and BART specifically). Not an exhaustive list, but: improve the urban planning and fabric to increase funding and ridership, improve cleanliness, building towards a more transit literate culture, AND more staff and officers in stations and trains.

One reason an officer in every train is tough might be that San Francisco and Oakland don’t have enough officers period.

 

[Stevenz]

Like ticooper says, not enough resources is most likely. Anyway, 50 cops for 50 trains is only one shift. BART is probably a two shift service or more. So we’re at 100 full time police, minimum.

Not saying it isn’t a good idea, it is, but I can anticipate the argument that if they had an additional 100 uniformed officers there would be better ways to deploy them, whether by BART or another authority.

 

[Trogdor]

I’d bet you’d need closer to 200-250 police officers. Not only factoring in multiple shifts, but also breaks, needs for weekend staff, and an extra board (or whatever it might be called in police lingo) to handle vacation, sick calls, etc. Essentially, scheduling them would be quite similar to scheduling a train operator, if the desire is essentially 100% coverage of every operating train.

Really, though, you don’t need them on every train 100% of the time to secure the system. Even a relatively small percentage, roaming around and riding random trains at various intervals, plus a few at stations in the busier areas and areas with more issues, would secure the system pretty well.

 

[PaTrainFan]

I’d bet you’d need closer to 200-250 police officers. Not only factoring in multiple shifts, but also breaks, needs for weekend staff, and an extra board (or whatever it might be called in police lingo) to handle vacation, sick calls, etc. Essentially, scheduling them would be quite similar to scheduling a train operator, if the desire is essentially 100% coverage of every operating train.

Really, though, you don’t need them on every train 100% of the time to secure the system. Even a relatively small percentage, roaming around and riding random trains at various intervals, plus a few at stations in the busier areas and areas with more issues, would secure the system pretty well.

And for goodness sake, do we really want a police state? I certainly do not. There may well be a tipping point when more police scares away more riders than it encourages.

 

[Tlcooper44]

And for goodness sake, do we really want a police state? I certainly do not. There may well reach a tipping point when more police scares away more riders than it encourages.

Agreed - moreover, the type of people who want extreme police presence are often the type of people who will never take transit.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Agreed - moreover, the type of people who want extreme police presence are often the type of people who will never take transit.

Or, live in or even visit "high crime" areas where they advocate for higher policing.

 

[MARC Rider]

And for goodness sake, do we really want a police state? I certainly do not. There may well be a tipping point when more police scares away more riders than it encourages.

I wouldn't call police officers openly deployed on trains and in the stations to be a "police state." Back circa 1970 when I was riding the Broad St. Subway in Philly to school every day and crime was really much higher than it is today, they had officers and K-9 units (dogs, big tough looking German Shepherds) in the stations and on the trains. But it is true that it costs a lot, and many police forces are having trouble with recruiting these days, so even if they wanted to have more police presence, there might not be the officers to do it.

 

[jimdex]

Is there a reason why there isn't a police officer on every train running in the BART system? It would only take around 50 more officers in order for each train set (there are a total of 50 train sets running each day) to have one stationed officer in order to protect passengers from criminals. Why hasn't this been done?

With so many heavy rail operations automated these days -- and indeed, with the technology for self-driving cars and trucks becoming increasingly sophisticated -- why can't transit systems take the train operator out of the cab and turn him into a conductor who continually walks the train? That would go a long way toward easing rider safety concerns, and while the conductor isn't a police officer, he could carry a radio so he could instantly alert transit police to any problems.

 

[jis]

With so many heavy rail operations automated these days -- and indeed, with the technology for self-driving cars and trucks becoming increasingly sophisticated -- why can't transit systems take the train operator out of the cab and turn him into a conductor who continually walks the train? That would go a long way toward easing rider safety concerns, and while the conductor isn't a police officer, he could carry a radio so he could instantly alert transit police to any problems.

That is what they seem to do in the automated Metro system in Dubai.

 

[GDRRiley]

Is there a reason why there isn't a police officer on every train running in the BART system? It would only take around 50 more officers in order for each train set (there are a total of 50 train sets running each day) to have one stationed officer in order to protect passengers from criminals. Why hasn't this been done?

it would end up taking over 250 officers to provide the 20/7 coverage they need. thats assuming 4 shifts each working 3.5 11 hour days per week (3 on 4 off, 4 on 3 off) and shifts having 80-90% of officers available for patrol. That would at least double the labor cost of every train.

 

[av84]

With so many heavy rail operations automated these days -- and indeed, with the technology for self-driving cars and trucks becoming increasingly sophisticated -- why can't transit systems take the train operator out of the cab and turn him into a conductor who continually walks the train? That would go a long way toward easing rider safety concerns, and while the conductor isn't a police officer, he could carry a radio so he could instantly alert transit police to any problems.

Riders generally consider Caltrain to have better safety/cleanliness/comfort than BART (not necessarily saying it's true, but that's the perception). The primary reason for this is there are two conductors who walk around the train, and kick out people who didn't pay or who are performing egregious behaviors like putting their feet on the seats.

 

[John Bredin]

Or, live in or even visit "high crime" areas where they advocate for higher policing.

I find it fascinating and frustrating that some people emphasize every incident on the New York subway to scare people into not riding the subway and respond to something like the Bourbon St. attack with "we won't change our way of life!" Random terrorism? We gotta keep on keepin' on! Random incident on the subway? Cut and run!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I find it fascinating and frustrating that some people emphasize every incident on the New York subway to scare people into not riding the subway and respond to something like the Bourbon St. attack with "we won't change our way of life!" Random terrorism? We gotta keep on keepin' on! Random incident on the subway? Cut and run!

Instead of causing me to avoid places, incidents that get publicity usually tells me that it should be safe, for a while, at least, to “go there” as security will probably be increased to avoid another incident. Of course I do my own research of where I’m going and make my own assessment as to whether it seems safe enough.

 

[railiner]

With so many heavy rail operations automated these days -- and indeed, with the technology for self-driving cars and trucks becoming increasingly sophisticated -- why can't transit systems take the train operator out of the cab and turn him into a conductor who continually walks the train? That would go a long way toward easing rider safety concerns, and while the conductor isn't a police officer, he could carry a radio so he could instantly alert transit police to any problems.

Going further…with automatic fare collection, and complete automated train operation, why have a conductor, and instead have a police officer patrol the train?

 

[UserNameRequired]

… There may well be a tipping point when more police scares away more riders than it encourages.

I am trying to understand this reasoning. Is there research or references to support this? Are the riders that don’t ride because there are more police really who we want to be riding with?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I am trying to understand this reasoning. Is there research or references to support this? Are the riders that don’t ride because there are more police really who we want to be riding with?

I’m thinking he means someone thinking “if you feel the need for a lot of police than I’m worried the crime rate is dangerously high and I’ll avoid the area”, in this case the trains.

 

[UserNameRequired]

I’m thinking he means someone thinking “if you feel the need for a lot of police than I’m worried the crime rate is dangerously high and I’ll avoid the area”, in this case the trains.

Oh I get that reasoning! Thanks.

 

[Stevenz]

I believe more police are needed. I’d start with highway patrols to reduce speeding which I think is the most dangerous public behaviour there is. I also worry about becoming a police state since I see movement in that direction. But police states aren’t about numbers of police but culture and tactics. Remember when cops were known as “peace officers”? “To protect and to serve” it said on Adam-12’s car. It feels different today.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Cars facilitate far more crime than transit ever did.

Preventing transit crime has historically been more about racism against the people who take it, rather than a desire to make our towns and cities safer.

I still advocate for safer transit, and maybe increased staff/police presence is the way, but I’d think there are other avenues to pursue.

 

[MARC Rider]

I believe more police are needed. I’d start with highway patrols to reduce speeding which I think is the most dangerous public behaviour there is. I also worry about becoming a police state since I see movement in that direction. But police states aren’t about numbers of police but culture and tactics. Remember when cops were known as “peace officers”? “To protect and to serve” it said on Adam-12’s car. It feels different today.

Actually, if I here in charge of the highway patrol, I'd focus on aggressive driving (which is sometimes speeding, but can also be cuutting off people, running redlights and other total disregard of traffic controls.)

It's true, a lot of cops openly on patrol (whether on the road or in the subways) doesn't make for a police state. A police state is where they track people individually and have people who review the data and know what everyone is up to, the better to punish people who they think are getting out of line. I've read that in some of the Communist bloc countries, the secret [police didn't necessarily lock up everybody who criticized the government, but they knew who they were, and those people maybe found it hard to get the job they wanted or a decent apartment or permission to take a trip abroad.

 

[UserNameRequired]

…

I still advocate for safer transit, and maybe increased staff/police presence is the way, but I’d think there are other avenues to pursue.

Ways that come to my mind are increasing capacity to provide mental health care to those who really should have some. What other ways are you or others thinking about?