BNSF and Amtrak Long Distance

[jis]

This "report card" to me, is so reminiscent of how the NJT and LIRR are so quick to announce to the media that their particular delays were of Amtrak's doing, whenever the opportunity presented itself...

I guess Amtrak cannot win with this tough crowd here. It was rail advocates that put the requirement to create and publish these report cards in regulations. So now that Amtrak is abiding by the regulations, the folks here are upset? I just shake my head at these knee jerk reactions to everything that Amtrak does. What can I say?

These report cards are actually generated not so much for the consumption of the host railroads, who already know this, since they are generated partly from their own dispatching reports. They are generated for the consumption of the public and the legislators.

Because historically the host railroads have often negotiated in bad faith, any argument about worrying about their dainty feelings is entirely specious IMHO.

 

[cirdan]

But then again BNSF did play hard ball on the Southwest Chief route to extract funding from the states and Amtrak to fix up the Raton Sub and La Junta Subs.

One of these reflects the actions of dispatchers &c and the other is higher management.

I don't know much about BNSF but have worked for several big corporations, both in corporate HQ offices and down at the salt face, and I believe it is a mistake to assume that top management are fully responsible for or even fully understand everything that happens down there. Especially areas that are not the prime focus of management, and don't make too much noise or disappear too much money tend to vanish from management's radar pretty quickly. That's how you get middle managers running their own local kingdoms and no questions being asked.

 

[railiner]

I guess Amtrak cannot win with this tough crowd here. It was rail advocates that put the requirement to create and publish these report cards in regulations. So now that Amtrak is abiding by the regulations, the folks here are upset? I just shake my head at these knee jerk reactions to everything that Amtrak does. What can I say?

These report cards are actually generated not so much for the consumption of the host railroads, who already know this, since they are generated partly from their own dispatching reports. They are generated for the consumption of the public and the legislators.

Because historically the host railroads have often negotiated in bad faith, any argument about worrying about their dainty feelings is entirely specious IMHO.

No argument from me...I agree that Amtrak is within its rights to 'finger point' at delays not of their fault. But I was just acknowledging that "what goes around, comes around"....

 

[Cal]

Things change over time, such as in 1993/1994 when the Southwest Chief ditched its routing via Pasadena to the current trek via Fullerton and in 1996 when Chillicothe and Streator lost their Amtrak service when the Southwest Chief began running via Princeton and Mendota. Both of these changes were done to conform to operational reality and/or to save money.

Actually it was re-routed through Fullerton because the old tracks were being sold by the ATSF

 

[Willbridge]

Actually it was re-routed through Fullerton because the old tracks were being sold by the ATSF

Part of it is now an interesting LRT ride.

 

[TheTuck]

I guess Amtrak cannot win with this tough crowd here. It was rail advocates that put the requirement to create and publish these report cards in regulations. So now that Amtrak is abiding by the regulations, the folks here are upset? I just shake my head at these knee jerk reactions to everything that Amtrak does. What can I say?

These report cards are actually generated not so much for the consumption of the host railroads, who already know this, since they are generated partly from their own dispatching reports. They are generated for the consumption of the public and the legislators.

Because historically the host railroads have often negotiated in bad faith, any argument about worrying about their dainty feelings is entirely specious IMHO.

Rail advocates wanted Amtrak to create a report card? A report card is a regulation? I'd like to learn more about those claims. In my first hand experience, the western Class 1's do a pretty good job of dispatching Amtrak. They can have a pretty congested railroad and yet they find a route for Amtrak. Sometimes that means Amtrak runs on some flashing yellows, but ultimately they'll get back on greens as fast as possible. The simple mandate that Amtrak ALWAYS get preference at junctions, crossings etc is too specific and is taken too literally from the armchair dispatchers out there. There's always more going on than meets the eye, and Amtrak's brass, and apparently many advocates alike, fail to understand this as basic railroading.

 

[jis]

Remember the original outburst was against issuing performance reports that are available to all to see. Now the issue being raised appears to be additionally on specific fixes.

I have no issues with explaining why something is the way it is, and why some proposed solutions won't work in all cases, and discuss how to work in the necessary exceptions in revised regulations. I just don't understand this, what appears to be, knee-jerk opposition to transparency regarding who is doing how well or poorly. Open data sharing is always better than hiding and manipulating. Pretending that problems do not exist by not exposing their effects is not the best way to focus attention on fixing problems.

It is quite reasonable to discuss and change the specific actions needed to fix issues. But none of that invalidates the desirability of knowing clearly which railroad is doing a good job with passenger trains in general and Amtrak in particular, and which is not.

 

[frequentflyer]

Report cards? Any bets that UPS , FED EX< and other shippers do not keep them and wave them in the face of RRs especially when handling get poor ?

Of course they do, but they pay for that privilege too, when UPS or Fedex comes up on the caller ID the CEO of BNSF is picking up the phone.

The SWC used to command similar respect. I posted this before, Trains had an article on the SWC, back in the 90s. BNSF stated the SWC was one of their most profitable trains due to the generous on time bonuses Amtrak was doling out at the time. I believe Amtrak has changed the bonus system.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In my first hand experience, the western Class 1's do a pretty good job of dispatching Amtrak.

In my firsthand experience Amtrak has the worst freight interference among industrialized passenger rail networks.

I'd like to learn more about those claims.

I'd like to learn more about your connection(s) to freight railroads.

The simple mandate that Amtrak ALWAYS get preference at junctions, crossings etc is too specific and is taken too literally from the armchair dispatchers out there.

Show us the actual wording from the host access contracts we'll adjust our expectations to match.

 

[TheTuck]

It's obvious we all want whats best for Amtrak; or at the very least what Amtrak is legally entitled to. While I dont have access to confidential language in the agreements between Amtrak and its hosts, I can assure you those focus on the financial incentives hosts stand to gain (or lose) based on minute by minute delays. Alas, this discussion is centered on the basic right of preference Amtrak is entitled from its host railroads. When any host habitually delays Amtrak, we have every right to hold their feet to the fire. I simply disagree with how its being done publicly. My fear is that hosts who see news articles about their bad Amtrak grades will not be as motivated to turn things around. Instead, they'll likely respond with a chip on their shoulder as opposed to being open to discussion. No its not professional, but that's reality. There's already a culture of disdain towards Amtrak within many Class 1's, why would we want to add fuel to that fire?

 

[lrh442]

I don't know if Amtrak's report cards are working, but the previous efforts to work quietly with the host roads was clearly not working, based on empirical OTP. So I give Amtrak some credit for trying a different approach. If you can suggest an approach that is different from both the previous behind-the-scenes persuasion method and the report card method, let's hear it.

 

[me_little_me]

The best solution, IMHO, is to take dispatching away from the host railroads and setting it up as a separate company that takes into account both passenger and freight needs in a fair and equitable way.
Isn't that what FEC did when it created Brightline?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The best solution, IMHO, is to take dispatching away from the host railroads and setting it up as a separate company that takes into account both passenger and freight needs in a fair and equitable way.
Isn't that what FEC did when it created Brightline?

Take dispatching away from the owners? I don’t see how that’s fair.

 

[jiml]

The best solution, IMHO, is to take dispatching away from the host railroads and setting it up as a separate company that takes into account both passenger and freight needs in a fair and equitable way.
Isn't that what FEC did when it created Brightline?

I'm not sure how this would work. FEC is a fairly small operation when compared to the major Class 1's. Would dispatching be a private company or government operation?

Take dispatching away from the owners? I don’t see how that’s fair.

While the railroads are unlikely to agree, one could argue that airlines don't do their own ATC.

 

[jis]

The best solution, IMHO, is to take dispatching away from the host railroads and setting it up as a separate company that takes into account both passenger and freight needs in a fair and equitable way.
Isn't that what FEC did when it created Brightline?

FEC didn't do anything. When Fortress set up Brightline, FECR was already not part of FECI. It was a direct subsidiary of Fortress, preparing to be sold off, eventually to FerroMex.

FECR and Brightline created a jointly and equally owned subsidiary (at the behest of Fortress no doubt) called the Florida Dispatching Company, with responsibility for dispatching and controlling all of FECR and Brightline lines in Florida.

It was a private company setting things up as various subsidiaries under itself, no doubt with the knowledge that eventually the parts involved would be owned by very different entities. As it turns out FECR landed up being owned by FerroMex and Brightline, via Fortress by SoftBank.

It is almost inconceivable that this scenario could play out in the context of the current Class I Railroads and Amtrak on main lines that are economically important for the Class Is, barring government intervention. If a line is not that important, the Class Is have tended to get rid of them and in the process Amtrak or state passenger agencies have acquired quite a bit of trackage and access to unused parts of ROW to lay their own tracks on. The rest have tended to get hived off to Class IIs and IIIs.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

While the railroads are unlikely to agree, one could argue that airlines don't do their own ATC.

Airlines also don’t own the airports and runways.

 

[toddinde]

Take dispatching away from the owners? I don’t see how that’s fair.

Who really does own the railroads? They were built with government granted charters and land grants worth billions. At best, they’ve always been a public private venture. They were outright nationalized during WWI, and were almost not returned to private hands. They were heavily regulated, and are still regulated. They are not a private entity like Kellogg’s or WalMart because railroads are an essential, public infrastructure. It’s nice that shareholders, like me, can make some money off of them, but first and foremost, they must serve the public interest. The American people have the right to have the railroads be what we need them to be. That includes providing acceptable customer service to freight customers, and running passenger trains on time.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Who really does own the railroads? They were built with government granted charters and land grants worth billions. At best, they’ve always been a public private venture. They were outright nationalized during WWI, and were almost not returned to private hands. They were heavily regulated, and are still regulated. They are not a private entity like Kellogg’s or WalMart because railroads are an essential, public infrastructure. It’s nice that shareholders, like me, can make some money off of them, but first and foremost, they must serve the public interest. The American people have the right to have the railroads be what we need them to be. That includes providing acceptable customer service to freight customers, and running passenger trains on time.

That’s not how it works though. The city of Cincinnati owns the Cincinnati to Chattanooga line, but Norfolk southern leases and controls it. Just because the city owns it doesn’t mean I can start up a passenger train service because it’s owned by the city.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Report cards? Any bets that UPS , FED EX< and other shippers do not keep them and wave them in the face of RRs especially when handling get poor ?

Well major shipping do give out rewards to carriers with excellent service records. So in a way you service does get a grade. It might be harder to switch rail service than a trucking line, but fail to service that customers and they will find other options.

 

[jis]

The American people have the right to have the railroads be what we need them to be. That includes providing acceptable customer service to freight customers, and running passenger trains on time.

Theoretically may be quite true. But in reality it is quite different, sort of like the wide gap between the theory of equality and democracy in the US vs. the reality

 

[zephyr17]

While the railroads are unlikely to agree, one could argue that airlines don't do their own ATC.

Airlines also do not own the skies. Railroads own their track.

 

[Barb Stout]

This following news report popped up in my feed while I was reading this particular thread, so the coincidence was too great for me to resist posting it even though it doesn't have anything directly to do with the subject. Man charged in Vado train derailment that hurt 2, caused millions of dollars damage - KVIA

I looked up to see if that is on the Sunset Limited track and it doesn't appear so, but I suppose it could cause a train traffic jam.

I am a tad surprised that one of the possible penalties for this if found guilty is life imprisonment. I speculate that the guy is a disgruntled BNSF (ex)employee.

 

[me_little_me]

Take dispatching away from the owners? I don’t see how that’s fair.

The government would have to pay for it but it's a LOT cheaper than paying to nationalize the track. Besides, the RR would be by far the biggest customer and would have to pay the biggest fee for use of the services. So the upfront cost would mostly be paid back by fees.

As to a comment about who would own it, well, if it were nationalized, it would be the government. As to who would run it, best would be a third party as Amtrak and the transit systems would be a customer and they are part of the political governments.

As to the comment that it wasn't FEC but a joint agreement, I did not make a statement but asked the question. However, the point is, they made an independent company which all both parties have to submit their needs and wants and the third party's job is to do the best to meet the needs and fit in the wants.

It would even work where Amtrak or a transit company or even a state or municipality is the dispatch owner.

This of course should resolve priority and fair use issues but not require standards of track maintenance and siding size (to fit long freight trains) which may be a lot higher for passenger services than freight. That's a different issue but if a passenger train is given a certain slot, then dispatching might have to force a long freight onto a siding far back to allow that slot and that might encourage the freight companies to put in more and/or longer sidings.

It also would have the effect of making Amtrak avoid being the cause of its own delay and do more about its own issues (station dwell times, need for putting in a passing track around a passenger train stopped at a station, maintenance issues, etc) because it could lose its assigned slot as (exceptions for unexpected freight problems), when it is given a certain slot, it should not have to worry about a dispatcher being pressured to sideline it because freight management wants to get that freight through.

 

[west point]

Off topic about air traffic control. Years ago when there was only a few national airlines each of the airlines did some sort of en route ATC. How it worked unknown. Maybe It ended after the mid air collision over the Grand Canyon ? Airport control towers were different as airports operated the towers.

 

[railiner]

While the railroads are unlikely to agree, one could argue that airlines don't do their own ATC.

Airlines also don’t own the airports and runways.

Airlines also do not own the skies. Railroads own their track.

Instead of comparing Air Traffic Control to railroad dispatching ownership, it should be more analogous to street and highway traffic control devices, signals, and in some large cities "controller's", who can remotely control various devices to regulate traffic flow....the government owns the "infrastructure", and therefore has control.