BREAKING NEWS: Wisconsin Purchises Two Talgo Sets

[jis]

This smells like a corrupt bargain to me-- There were plenty of companies on the table and some of which that build better trains. For Wisconsin to just up and announce that they struck a deal with Talgo means money has changed hands... or that some yuppie state Senator went to Washington for a vacation, rode the train, and said "hey, I want a silly Starbucks on wheels-- if I can get this it will win me another term!"

Pardon, but it seems your prejudices are showing At least I don't see any indication at all that there is anything corrupt going on in this case. Since you level a rather serious charge, would you care to elaborate what your evidence is (other than just that it is Talgo of course :lol: )

 

[BigBlueBuddha]

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.

When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.

Is there anything specific that makes you questions this transaction? I know there is a lot of corruption in Illinois, but I had not noticed anything lately in Wisconsin.

Nothing other then my general assumption whenever no-bid job and foreign concern appear in the same deal. Especially with Asian companies- which I know Talgo is not. Bribing is the way certain cultures do these things. If you want proof, you'll have to look elsewhere for I have none.

ALC, for once, and it pains me a lot to say this, Vokris does have a point- there are times when bidding is not worth what it costs.

However... Talgo is not the only company who builds tilting trainsets. The UAC TurboTrain was a pendular design. Bombardier's Acela and LRC sets tilt. I'm pretty sure the Pendalinos are Italian (Fiat comes to mind) and not Talgo. Since there are other possible designs, I question the logic. So while Volkris does make a valid point, I disagree that it applies to this instance.

This smells like a corrupt bargain to me-- There were plenty of companies on the table and some of which that build better trains. For Wisconsin to just up and announce that they struck a deal with Talgo means money has changed hands... or that some yuppie state Senator went to Washington for a vacation, rode the train, and said "hey, I want a silly Starbucks on wheels-- if I can get this it will win me another term!"

Actually, Wisconsin Governor Doyle, not some "yuppie state Senator", rode a Talgo train when he visited Spain not too long ago and he came back singing their praise.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.

When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.

Is there anything specific that makes you questions this transaction? I know there is a lot of corruption in Illinois, but I had not noticed anything lately in Wisconsin.

Nothing other then my general assumption whenever no-bid job and foreign concern appear in the same deal. Especially with Asian companies- which I know Talgo is not. Bribing is the way certain cultures do these things. If you want proof, you'll have to look elsewhere for I have none.

ALC, for once, and it pains me a lot to say this, Vokris does have a point- there are times when bidding is not worth what it costs.

However... Talgo is not the only company who builds tilting trainsets. The UAC TurboTrain was a pendular design. Bombardier's Acela and LRC sets tilt. I'm pretty sure the Pendalinos are Italian (Fiat comes to mind) and not Talgo. Since there are other possible designs, I question the logic. So while Volkris does make a valid point, I disagree that it applies to this instance.

This smells like a corrupt bargain to me-- There were plenty of companies on the table and some of which that build better trains. For Wisconsin to just up and announce that they struck a deal with Talgo means money has changed hands... or that some yuppie state Senator went to Washington for a vacation, rode the train, and said "hey, I want a silly Starbucks on wheels-- if I can get this it will win me another term!"

Actually, Wisconsin Governor Doyle, not some "yuppie state Senator", rode a Talgo train when he visited Spain not too long ago and he came back singing their praise.

Does it matter where he rode them? He rode them and fell in love with them-- so the entire state is doomed to mediocre trains because one man had his fancy tickled.

And there's a difference between the state asking for submissions and putting the project up for bids-- there ARE plenty of train builders out there, but the state didn't put out for bids. If they had designed the projects and opened it up for bids I'm sure more than just Talgo would have responded.

Either way the Talgos (and other tilting trains) will be totally 100% useless on that track anyway, there needs to be money budgeted in for the smoothing of curves and track improvements.

 

[VT Hokie]

Plenty of Builders???
here's what the article says:

When the Transportation Department asked seven major train manufacturers - four from Europe and three from Asia - for information on their ability to provide the trains, only Talgo submitted a formal detailed response, said Robert Jambois, the department's general counsel. Nippon Sharyo sent a letter and France's Alstom Transport sent an e-mail, neither of which were available Friday, Jambois said.

Note: only Talgo submitted a formal detailed response! Nippon Sharyo and Alstom basically flipped it off. No-one else responded...where do you get plenty of builders from this?? What a previous poster mentioned seems to come in play here:a Company wanting to build a small order, is what seems to have motivated Talgo (that plus the propaganda). The other companies were obviously too busy building train sets for other States/Railroads and couldn't be bothered. :huh:

Did they even bother to contact Amtrak about the three Super Steel RTL III Turboliners for sale? :lol:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Did they even bother to contact Amtrak about the three Super Steel RTL III Turboliners for sale? :lol:

Heaven forbid, even people from Wisconsin aren't that dumb.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

And the Turboliner can is opened again! Let the worms squirm out!!

 

[Kramerica]

When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.

Is there anything specific that makes you questions this transaction? I know there is a lot of corruption in Illinois, but I had not noticed anything lately in Wisconsin.

If you haven't noticed anything recently, then you haven't been paying attention to Governor Doyle. His whole administration is corrupt.

Specific to this transaction, a red flag goes up because Doyle will not release the names of the people who went with him on his Talgo-paid-for trip to Spain. The probable reason he doesn't want to disclose that information is because then you could figure out the relationships between those people and people who gave large sums of money to Doyle's campaign. Jim Doyle (like most politicians) doesn't give no-bid contracts to companies out of the goodness of his heart. There's something in it for him.

But I'm happy that we're moving forward with intercity rail in Wisconsin. Hopefully we'll need to buy those two extra sets for the MKE-MAD run.

I also emailed the JS reporters today to have them write something about the configuration and amenities the Talgo trains will have. I'd like to know about dining/lounge cars, seat pitch, and whether bicycles will be allowed to be brought on board, unlike the current Hiawatha. I'd also like to know why the train will be 14 cars, which is double the length of the current train, but only increases the capacity by 20%.

 

[AlanB]

Does it matter where he rode them? He rode them and fell in love with them-- so the entire state is doomed to mediocre trains because one man had his fancy tickled.

Mediocre in your opinion only. Most other's consider the Talgos to be a fine ride and one of the better services provided by Amtrak.

And there's a difference between the state asking for submissions and putting the project up for bids-- there ARE plenty of train builders out there, but the state didn't put out for bids. If they had designed the projects and opened it up for bids I'm sure more than just Talgo would have responded.

A Request For Interest/Information (RFI) is often the first step taken before a Request For Proposal (RFP) is asked for. It's unclear at the moment if they actually did a formal RFI or just asked companies if they were interested. And I won't deny that it would be best if the two letters that they did get back were quickly made public.

However, it sounds like no one other than Talgo seemed interested. Therefore there was no point in doing an RFP, which is essentially bidding out the project.

Either way the Talgos (and other tilting trains) will be totally 100% useless on that track anyway, there needs to be money budgeted in for the smoothing of curves and track improvements.

I'm sorry but that's totally wrong. The entire point of the Talgo or any tilting train is that it can go around a curve faster than a non-tilting train. It's for that very reason that the Talgo's have a higher speed limit in Washington and Oregon than do Amtrak trains running with Superliner or Amfleet cars, as well as Sounder.

So regardless of whether track improvements are made or not, the running times between CHI and MKE will go down. Yes, they'd go down even more if track improvements are made, but in the meantime this will still cut overall running times.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I'm sorry but that's totally wrong. The entire point of the Talgo or any tilting train is that it can go around a curve faster than a non-tilting train. It's for that very reason that the Talgo's have a higher speed limit in Washington and Oregon than do Amtrak trains running with Superliner or Amfleet cars, as well as Sounder.
So regardless of whether track improvements are made or not, the running times between CHI and MKE will go down. Yes, they'd go down even more if track improvements are made, but in the meantime this will still cut overall running times.

The Talgo has never proven itself much of an asset on the rails-- its speeds between SEA and PDX are only about 15% faster due to their increase and speed-- let's compare that to ridership. Their 14 car train only seats 20% more pax than the 6-7 car Hiawatha. Now it stands to reason that track improvements would decrease runtimes (Talgo or not). Whereas you can easily rotate Amfleets, Superliners, and Horizon cars through the CHI system I'd like to see what happens when one of those two trainsets flubs itself up-- Amtrak should be working towards standardizing their fleet rather than let states do willy nilly what they want and having this mismatched fleet with different running crews and repair shops and have to... Oh I give up.

Enjoy your Starbucks on wheels. I swear on my AC applications that this will be my last critiquing the Talgos. I guess I am working a loosing battle with a fad.

 

[AlanB]

The Talgo has never proven itself much of an asset on the rails-- its speeds between SEA and PDX are only about 15% faster due to their increase and speed-- let's compare that to ridership.

Actually it's more like 20% faster than conventional equipment between SEA and PDX, or 30 minutes saved by having the Talgo equipment. To most people who aren't railfans, that is significant. To business people, those 30 minutes are critical.

Their 14 car train only seats 20% more pax than the 6-7 car Hiawatha.

Here I don't totally disagree, although I'm sure that part of the difference is because they plan to run a cafe car in the consist, most likely business class (probably 2 cars like the current Talgos), and have much greater seat pitch even in coach when compared to the Horizons that currently ply the Hiawatha route. It's also possible that they are including a dining car for eventual extension of the run past Milwaukee and maybe a baggage car.

Still that doesn't seem to account for such a small improvement over the current trains. And that's assuming that they are going to have 2 dead cars in the form of the dining car and a bag. Hopefully Kramerica will get some further answers via his enquiries.

Now it stands to reason that track improvements would decrease runtimes (Talgo or not).

No argument here, except to say that even with improvements you can't get a totally straight track and therefore the tilting Talgo will still run faster.

Whereas you can easily rotate Amfleets, Superliners, and Horizon cars through the CHI system I'd like to see what happens when one of those two trainsets flubs itself up--

If a Superliner can pinch hit for an Amfleet, then there is no reason that it can't pinch hit for a Talgo. In fact, it already has. :lol: As have Amfleets and Horizons.

Amtrak should be working towards standardizing their fleet rather than let states do willy nilly what they want and having this mismatched fleet with different running crews and repair shops and have to...

If Amtrak were buying this equipment you might have a good argument, although for all we know Amtrak may well pick Talgo to build the next generation of equipment, in which case what Wisconsin is buying would be standard. However, Amtrak isn't buying the equipment and is only being paid to run it and maintain it. They have no say in this matter, except to perhaps raise the rates that they charge Wisconsin to maintain the equipment. And that assumes that Wisconsin doesn't contract Talgo to do the maintenance.

And no need for different running crews, the sets don't include engines so most likely Amtrak will put P42's on the head end.

 

[Neil_M]

The Talgo has never proven itself much of an asset on the rails-- its speeds between SEA and PDX are only about 15% faster due to their increase and speed-- let's compare that to ridership. Their 14 car train only seats 20% more pax than the 6-7 car Hiawatha. Now it stands to reason that track improvements would decrease runtimes (Talgo or not). Whereas you can easily rotate Amfleets, Superliners, and Horizon cars through the CHI system I'd like to see what happens when one of those two trainsets flubs itself up-- Amtrak should be working towards standardizing their fleet rather than let states do willy nilly what they want and having this mismatched fleet with different running crews and repair shops and have to... Oh I give up.
Enjoy your Starbucks on wheels. I swear on my AC applications that this will be my last critiquing the Talgos. I guess I am working a loosing battle with a fad.

Ever thought you might just be wrong? Or do 20 year olds not even consider stuff like that?! :lol:

 

[BigBlueBuddha]

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.

When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.

Is there anything specific that makes you questions this transaction? I know there is a lot of corruption in Illinois, but I had not noticed anything lately in Wisconsin.

Nothing other then my general assumption whenever no-bid job and foreign concern appear in the same deal. Especially with Asian companies- which I know Talgo is not. Bribing is the way certain cultures do these things. If you want proof, you'll have to look elsewhere for I have none.

ALC, for once, and it pains me a lot to say this, Vokris does have a point- there are times when bidding is not worth what it costs.

However... Talgo is not the only company who builds tilting trainsets. The UAC TurboTrain was a pendular design. Bombardier's Acela and LRC sets tilt. I'm pretty sure the Pendalinos are Italian (Fiat comes to mind) and not Talgo. Since there are other possible designs, I question the logic. So while Volkris does make a valid point, I disagree that it applies to this instance.

This smells like a corrupt bargain to me-- There were plenty of companies on the table and some of which that build better trains. For Wisconsin to just up and announce that they struck a deal with Talgo means money has changed hands... or that some yuppie state Senator went to Washington for a vacation, rode the train, and said "hey, I want a silly Starbucks on wheels-- if I can get this it will win me another term!"

Actually, Wisconsin Governor Doyle, not some "yuppie state Senator", rode a Talgo train when he visited Spain not too long ago and he came back singing their praise.

Does it matter where he rode them?. . .

Of course not, don't be obtuse. <_< You miss the point entirely. I was simply supplying a fact to counter your specious claim about "yuppie" Senators on vacation in Washington, Starbucks, and getting elected again. In fact, with the many opponents of increasing trains in Wisconsin, your fictional Senator would just as likely not win another term!

As a Wisconsin resident, I for one applaud any increase in train travel options in my area, regardless of the equipment. Well, I might stop short of riding in a hopper! :lol: I especially am looking forward to the eventual Milwaukee-Green Bay runs. GO PACK!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Of course not, don't be obtuse. <_< You miss the point entirely. I was simply supplying a fact to counter your specious claim about "yuppie" Senators on vacation in Washington, Starbucks, and getting elected again. In fact, with the many opponents of increasing trains in Wisconsin, your fictional Senator would just as likely not win another term!
As a Wisconsin resident, I for one applaud any increase in train travel options in my area, regardless of the equipment. Well, I might stop short of riding in a hopper! :lol: I especially am looking forward to the eventual Milwaukee-Green Bay runs. GO PACK!

Well there's another Wisconsin resident who in this thread, explains he is corrupt and pretty much agrees with me on matters of money-- given that we're talking about a guy runnign for a public office, I don't put it past him.

And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.

 

[Neil_M]

And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.

Not always, but 20 year olds always think they know everything. I know I did, but know I know I do know everything.....

Under 25s shouldn't be allowed an opinion till they a pass a test anyway.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.

Not always, but 20 year olds always think they know everything. I know I did, but know I know I do know everything.....

Under 25s shouldn't be allowed an opinion till they a pass a test anyway.

You do realize how asinine you sound, right?

 

[Ispolkom]

Of course not, don't be obtuse. <_< You miss the point entirely. I was simply supplying a fact to counter your specious claim about "yuppie" Senators on vacation in Washington, Starbucks, and getting elected again. In fact, with the many opponents of increasing trains in Wisconsin, your fictional Senator would just as likely not win another term!
As a Wisconsin resident, I for one applaud any increase in train travel options in my area, regardless of the equipment. Well, I might stop short of riding in a hopper! :lol: I especially am looking forward to the eventual Milwaukee-Green Bay runs. GO PACK!

Well there's another Wisconsin resident who in this thread, explains he is corrupt and pretty much agrees with me on matters of money-- given that we're talking about a guy runnign for a public office, I don't put it past him.

And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.

The crack about your age is ad hominem, but I sure don't see your presenting any evidence about either Doyle's corruption in general, or in this agreement in particular. Not that wild, supported statements are made only by young people, of course.

The remarkable case of Georgia Thompson makes me especially suspicious of corruption charges in Wisconsin, a generally well-run state under both Republican and Democratic administrations.

 

[Neil_M]

And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.

Not always, but 20 year olds always think they know everything. I know I did, but know I know I do know everything.....

Under 25s shouldn't be allowed an opinion till they a pass a test anyway.

You do realize how asinine you sound, right?

Maybe, but you getting all excited over 'Starbucks on rails' and other such trivia don't exactly lend themselves to people assuming you have any factual basis to your argument.

It's true about Americans not getting irony by the way....... :lol:

 

[Guest]

And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.

Not always, but 20 year olds always think they know everything. I know I did, but know I know I do know everything.....

Under 25s shouldn't be allowed an opinion till they a pass a test anyway.

You do realize how asinine you sound, right?

Maybe, but you getting all excited over 'Starbucks on rails' and other such trivia don't exactly lend themselves to people assuming you have any factual basis to your argument.

It's true about Americans not getting irony by the way....... :lol:

Right-O Neil!Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but Some Americans get irony and even dont resort to name calling

and sloganeering like certain right wing kooks and Fixed-er_Fox News!I personally believe this attitude is from someone who

never grew up and if they dont get their way,no matter how plainly ridiculous,will take their ball and go home or cry!

 

[wayman]

Does it matter where he rode them? He rode them and fell in love with them-- so the entire state is doomed to mediocre trains because one man had his fancy tickled.

Mediocre in your opinion only. Most other's consider the Talgos to be a fine ride and one of the better services provided by Amtrak.

Full agreement here: I love the Amfleet as much as GML, but I also found my Cascade rides last year to be thoroughly enjoyable. Comfortable, smooth, efficient, bright, spacious, good food service. As a rider, I saw nothing to dislike about them. ALC, can you explain why you feel the Talgos offer such an inferior "Starbucks on wheels" experience to riders? Other riders I talked to in Portland and Seattle seemed quite happy with them, and other posters here seem to have had favorable experiences as riders too. I know Cascadia prefers the Superliners, but I don't recall her heavily disparaging the Talgos.

Now, maintenance and cost and other issues, those are completely separate and have nothing to do with whether Talgos are "Starbucks on wheels" or not. And I'm far from an expert on those. But AlanB and others have addressed most of those issues too, in ways that make this seem like the Talgos are a decent move. Maybe a move that was politically motivated, and maybe even a move that was politically shady or worse. But not a move that will be detrimental for riders or for Wisconsin taxpayers or for Amtrak.

Also, I wish we could stay away from the ad hominem attacks which occasionally show up here, especially related to age. There are lots of constructive and productive arguments that can be made--let's hear those instead!

 

[Steve4031]

The Talgo's tend to ride rough on rough track. There is an especially rough section on the Cascades route as the train runs along the beach. This is jointed rail with slow operating speeds. There are places where the Talgo runs on rebuilt tracks, and it rides very well there.

IMHO, there will need to be some serious track work between Chicago and Milwaukee for these trains to ride smoothly. The ride is ok on Horizons and Superliners, but the Talgos, I suspect, might ride rough going over switches and grade crossings.

I like the Talgos, and I hope they are successful. And that they are expanded to other routes in the Midwest.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I have made my arguments against the Talgos in the dozens of other threads this board has had about them-- I am not going to repeat them. I did swear.

 

[transit54]

I have made my arguments against the Talgos in the dozens of other threads this board has had about them-- I am not going to repeat them. I did swear.

Perhaps you can link us to a few of them, if you aren't willing to repeat them?

 

[MattW]

Anyone want to guess if the Talgos for Wisconsin will have the fins the Cascades have? Since the P-42 is the shortest Passenger Locomotive will the fins be added on?

 

[transit54]

Anyone want to guess if the Talgos for Wisconsin will have the fins the Cascades have? Since the P-42 is the shortest Passenger Locomotive will the fins be added on?

I hope not...I think the fins look awful with the P42s. Also, I'd be interested in the paint scheme used on the units. I think it would be great to have them painted to match the P42s if that's what they're going to be pulled by.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I have made my arguments against the Talgos in the dozens of other threads this board has had about them-- I am not going to repeat them. I did swear.

Perhaps you can link us to a few of them, if you aren't willing to repeat them?

Try this thread and this one. You may also be interested in Cascadia's well written post here and my mild critique of safety issues.

This should be enough to give you all a start