BREAKING NEWS: Wisconsin Purchises Two Talgo Sets

[Neil_M]

This should be enough to give you all a start

Better send those off to Wisconsin then. That will stop them in their tracks! :lol:

 

[gaspeamtrak]

And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.

Not always, but 20 year olds always think they know everything. I know I did, but know I know I do know everything.....

Under 25s shouldn't be allowed an opinion till they a pass a test anyway.

So true...most of the time

 

[Steve4031]

I would suggest orange and blue. That way those cheese heads will be reminded about who there daddy is every time they get on talgo to come to Chicago. The bears and jay cutler will be beating the pack for the next decade. Lol

 

[Rob_C]

Here's some general design questions about the Talgos...

Does Spain not have any Bi-level cars? Height restrictions or otherwise?

Or would a bi-level Talgo nullify the tilt ability? They certainly seem to be low enough to support an upper deck, no?

Also why the short car length? Does that have something to do with the tilt, or is that the only way to make the intermodal design work? (I think they are intermodal, but please correct me if not).

 

[Bob Dylan]

I would suggest orange and blue. That way those cheese heads will be reminded about who there daddy is every time they get on talgo to come to Chicago. The bears and jay cutler will be beating the pack for the next decade. Lol

Just like the Cubs eh?Everyone knows Silver and Blue rules, Go Cowboys!!!!!

 

[Steve4031]

I would suggest orange and blue. That way those cheese heads will be reminded about who there daddy is every time they get on talgo to come to Chicago. The bears and jay cutler will be beating the pack for the next decade. Lol

Just like the Cubs eh?Everyone knows Silver and Blue rules, Go Cowboys!!!!!

Just got one thing to say about the Cowboys. 44-0. LOL

 

[transit54]

And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.

Not always, but 20 year olds always think they know everything. I know I did, but know I know I do know everything.....

Under 25s shouldn't be allowed an opinion till they a pass a test anyway.

So true...most of the time

If an argument is invalid or ill informed, then why not attack it from that angle, why resort to age? I'm a tad offended at this whole line of reasoning...I don't agree with ALC's conclusions on the Talgos (actually, I'm staying out of this whole debate because I've never ridden on them, so I don't think I could contribute much of anything meaningful), but I think its just absurd (and mildly offensive) to make sweeping generalizations about the validity of one's opinions based on their age. Are there plenty of people in their early 20s who wrongly believe they know everything? Sure, there are. There's also a lot of people in their late 40s who also wrongly believe they know everything. I spent two years working with the traveling public as an airline employee when I was 20 and 21 and let me tell you, the ignorance and stupidity of people who averaged twice my age was astounding on a daily basis. There are ill-informed, unreasonable, backwards and irrational people at every age bracket. Sure, younger people in their teens and early twenties are stereotypically headstrong, but I would hope that we could put aside our prejudices and stereotypes and just have open, frank discussions as fellow board members, without having to attack opinions based on age, location, gender or anything else not relevant. And for the record, no, I don't know everything. I'm astounded at how much more I learn every year, and I hope to continue that to the day that I die. But I think we all have knowledge in different areas - I may be 22, but I perhaps have experiences that others on this board may not have, regardless of their age. And almost everyone on this board also has experiences that I haven't had, and that's why I'm here.

So, with that said, can we get back to discussing Amtrak?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Their 14 car train only seats 20% more pax than the 6-7 car Hiawatha.

Here I don't totally disagree, although I'm sure that part of the difference is because they plan to run a cafe car in the consist, most likely business class (probably 2 cars like the current Talgos), and have much greater seat pitch even in coach when compared to the Horizons that currently ply the Hiawatha route. It's also possible that they are including a dining car for eventual extension of the run past Milwaukee and maybe a baggage car.

Still that doesn't seem to account for such a small improvement over the current trains. And that's assuming that they are going to have 2 dead cars in the form of the dining car and a bag. Hopefully Kramerica will get some further answers via his enquiries.

You must be joking. Please tell me you're joking. Why do you miss the bloody obvious. 14 Talgo cars do not equal in length or interior volume or anything else, 14 standard-size 85' American coach cars of any type. They're much shorter and articulated. Of course 14 cars don't come close to doubling the capacity, even if there are no bloody service cars at all. In fact, if I remember correctly, which I am not at all sure if I do, the Talgo cars are only like 50 feet long. 7 85 feet cars are 595 feet in length, whilst 14 50 feet cars = 700 feet. Or about 1.23 standard cars more in length. Which would be 17.5% increase in total length. A 20% increase in capacity is actually impressive, especially if they add features. I know my math is completely off the cuff since I don't actually know the exact length of the cars, but my point stands: T = 14X, H = 7 Y, and X < Y

And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.

Not always, but 20 year olds always think they know everything. I know I did, but know I know I do know everything.....

Under 25s shouldn't be allowed an opinion till they a pass a test anyway.

Sometimes, you are seriously about the most offensive person on this board, dude. Given my own position in that department, you really stepped over the line for me to mention it! I might be offensive, but I generally don't attack other forum members. ALC ain't my favourite person, exactly, but in some areas he's more grown up than you.

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, whatever that opinion is, and you have to respect their right to have it- be the person holding it a 3 year old child or Stephen Hawkings. You are entitled to value the validity of that opinion as you will, but denying its right to exist is about as childish as someone can get.

And I say this, my opinion of possible corruption notwithstanding, disagreeing thoroughly with most of what ALC is saying.

Here's some general design questions about the Talgos...
Does Spain not have any Bi-level cars? Height restrictions or otherwise?

Or would a bi-level Talgo nullify the tilt ability? They certainly seem to be low enough to support an upper deck, no?

Also why the short car length? Does that have something to do with the tilt, or is that the only way to make the intermodal design work? (I think they are intermodal, but please correct me if not).

Can't answer the first or second questions, for I don't know.

However, the reason for the short car length is that the trains are articulated - one wheel pair shared by both cars at each coupling, and thus you need more cars per train to properly distribute weight. I'd imagine, although I don't know, that it also improves the train's ability to clear sharp turns.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

If you want to increase capacity by 20% or more-- all you need to do is add another Amfleet/Horizon. You want to increase capacity by 50%, add three cars.

 

[p&sr]

I spent two years working with the traveling public as an airline employee when I was 20 and 21 and let me tell you, the ignorance and stupidity of people who averaged twice my age was astounding on a daily basis. There are ill-informed, unreasonable, backwards and irrational people at every age bracket.

Yes indeed. A very interesting observation.

 

[battalion51]

If you want to increase capacity by 20% or more-- all you need to do is add another Amfleet/Horizon. You want to increase capacity by 50%, add three cars.

I think something all parties involved are missing right now is that Wisconsin and Illinois are currently having to pay to lease the Horizons/Amfleets from Amtrak. It's very clear that Hiawatha service is not going away anytime soon. So you come to the principles we all deal with when it comes to our living arrangements rent vs. buy. If you plan on being there for 30 years, you buy. If you plan on being there for under 5 you rent. Same principle y'all.

 

[jis]

Here's some general design questions about the Talgos...
Does Spain not have any Bi-level cars? Height restrictions or otherwise?

Or would a bi-level Talgo nullify the tilt ability? They certainly seem to be low enough to support an upper deck, no?

Also why the short car length? Does that have something to do with the tilt, or is that the only way to make the intermodal design work? (I think they are intermodal, but please correct me if not).

You can see example of bi-level Talgos as operated by VR - the Finnish Railways - on their Russian Broad Gauge system in

.

 

[Neil_M]

Sometimes, you are seriously about the most offensive person on this board, dude. Given my own position in that department, you really stepped over the line for me to mention it! I might be offensive, but I generally don't attack other forum members. ALC ain't my favourite person, exactly, but in some areas he's more grown up than you.

Feel free to take as much offence as you want as none was intended, it was meant to be a flippant remark, but go ahead , if you feel better by being offended then don't mind me.

Obviously a sense of humour is not given to the youth of the US either.

 

[Kramerica]

OK... back on the ranch...

I sent this set of questions to the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel's reporter on transporation:

I’ve been reading all the articles about the new Talgo train sets the state plans to buy. I’d like to see an article about the configuration and amenities of the new train sets. Currently the 7-car Hiawatha (2 engines and 5 coaches) carries 350 passengers. But the new trains will be 14 cars and carry 420 passengers. What is all the extra space going to be used for?
- Will there be a baggage car?

- Will there be a café car? If so, what kind of seating and food service will it have?

- Will there be a business class featuring 2x1 seating?

- Will the cars be shorter in length?

- Will the 14-car train fit at stations that currently accommodate a 7-car train? Or will two stops be required for some stations?

- Will there be space for bicycles on the train? (currently the Hiawatha does not allow carry-on bikes)

- What is the top speed of the new train, assuming the track is upgraded?

- What is the seat pitch in coach class?

- Will the seats be able to “turn around” to face the direction of travel? (currently half face forward and half face backward)

- Will seats be able to be turned for families or groups to sit facing each other?

- Will there be tables available?

- Will the improved acceleration cut out time on the MKE-CHI run?

- Will there be Wi-Fi?

I’m sure many people would be interested in this sort of information. The future can’t come soon enough!

He (Larry Sandler) replied with this:

Thank you for all these excellent questions. I hope to address some of them in a future article, perhaps as soon as tomorrow.
As for the questions that wouldn’t be addressed, I can tell you that the new cars will be shorter, so the total length of the train won’t increase much. It is not yet clear whether the trains would decrease the time on the Chicago-Milwaukee run prior to the eventual upgrade to 110 mph service, but Talgo says these trains could handle any speed up to 220 mph. And the DOT says that if you ask the conductor, he can turn around the current seats on the Hiawatha for you, but they’re not sure whether the new ones will have that capability.

So, hopefully there'll be some more information in the newspaper soon. I do have a question about flipping the seats on the Horizons, though. I've only taken it once, so I'm not too familiar with it. Can the conductor flip the seats?

The amenity I really hope the Talgo has is the ability to carry on a bicycle. Chicago has some great bike trails, and my friends and I would love to take our bikes on the train instead of taking our cars.

I did find this page about the Cascades Talgo on trainweb interesting. It shows a (gasp!) 14-car consist for the Talgo. That would make me think that Wisconsin's trains may be similar or idential in configuration. Baggage, coach, coach, coach, coach, coach, coach, coach, bistro, diner, business, business, generator. That would be pretty nice.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The Talgos can hit 220mph? Is he on meth?!?

 

[battalion51]

Well if you call this meth, then yes.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Well if you call this meth, then yes.

Wisconsin is not buying that series... clearly he has no idea what he's buying.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Sometimes, you are seriously about the most offensive person on this board, dude. Given my own position in that department, you really stepped over the line for me to mention it! I might be offensive, but I generally don't attack other forum members. ALC ain't my favourite person, exactly, but in some areas he's more grown up than you.

Feel free to take as much offence as you want as none was intended, it was meant to be a flippant remark, but go ahead , if you feel better by being offended then don't mind me.

Obviously a sense of humour is not given to the youth of the US either.

I have an extensive sense of humor. It just doesn't work very well divining it from your text, and I really don't particularly understand British humor being an Israeli who has spent most of his life in the United States and has only been to Britain a few times.

The Talgos can hit 220mph? Is he on meth?!?

The wheels sets can handles speeds like that, and I don't doubt it to be true. They ain't gonna reach it being hauled by a Genesis or F59PHi. But hook them to a powerful enough locomotive, and I'm sure they could handle moving at that speed.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--

You can find it in Europe. Please, ALC. The trainset's virtues on their native track and their suitability for Wisconsin are different issues.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--

You can find it in Europe. Please, ALC. The trainset's virtues on their native track and their suitability for Wisconsin are different issues.

I'm not stupid. It just proves my point... European trains are designed for European track. If and until US track can be held to the same standard European trains are nothing but flashy.

 

[Neil_M]

Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--

You can find it in Europe. Please, ALC. The trainset's virtues on their native track and their suitability for Wisconsin are different issues.

I'm not stupid. It just proves my point... European trains are designed for European track. If and until US track can be held to the same standard European trains are nothing but flashy.

No need to improve things then? If even Spain can manage to run trains at some sort of high speed, bit of a poor show if keeping some stone, concrete or wooden strips and 2 long bits of steel in some sort of reasonable order is too much effort for a supposedly advanced nation.....

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--

You can find it in Europe. Please, ALC. The trainset's virtues on their native track and their suitability for Wisconsin are different issues.

I'm not stupid. It just proves my point... European trains are designed for European track. If and until US track can be held to the same standard European trains are nothing but flashy.

No need to improve things then? If even Spain can manage to run trains at some sort of high speed, bit of a poor show if keeping some stone, concrete or wooden strips and 2 long bits of steel in some sort of reasonable order is too much effort for a supposedly advanced nation.....

Yeah-- that's exactly what I said. Well done.

Bravo.

You nailed it.

Now for the rest of the reasonable public-- WI is only purchasing the carsets and not the motive power?

 

[Neil_M]

Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--

You can find it in Europe. Please, ALC. The trainset's virtues on their native track and their suitability for Wisconsin are different issues.

I'm not stupid. It just proves my point... European trains are designed for European track. If and until US track can be held to the same standard European trains are nothing but flashy.

No need to improve things then? If even Spain can manage to run trains at some sort of high speed, bit of a poor show if keeping some stone, concrete or wooden strips and 2 long bits of steel in some sort of reasonable order is too much effort for a supposedly advanced nation.....

Yeah-- that's exactly what I said. Well done.

Bravo.

You nailed it.

Now for the rest of the reasonable public-- WI is only purchasing the carsets and not the motive power?

Wow. Sarcasm. In one so young..... :lol:

Anyway, those Talgos are only "flashy" because you are used to such poor quality trains!

But you gotta start somewhere!

 

[Kramerica]

Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--

So you're saying that instead we should buy a train set that can only go as fast as the current track allows? So then what when you upgrade the track? Buy new trains?