Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[GBNorman]

I certainly agree that the photo spread featured at The Next Miami site reveals a darned attractive station - just as I hold about everything else coming from my two round trip joyrides this year.

Now shifting to Tri-Rail, no question whatever that to serve Downtown Miami will be a "shot in the arm" to its usefulness in providing needed transportation through the region.

Possibly, this should be addressed at a different topic, but how can both the Airport and Downtown be served efficiently and without "overservice"?

My thought is a "Hollywood Shuttle" serving alternately both terminals and same for the regular trains.

 

[GBNorman]

Adding to my "Hollywood Shuttle" thought, last week riding Atlanta's MARTA, after an Atlanta Symphony concert, from Arts Center to Dunwoody, there was a "change at Lindbergh".

During off peak hours, MARTA sees no need to have two trains chasing one another all the way from the Airport to both Doralville (Yellow) and North Springs (Red). So the late evening Red trains originate at Lindbergh immediately South of where the lines diverge.

It wasnt that inconvenient - even for an out of town rider like myself.

 

[jis]

It will be sometime in 2019 that Tri-Rail actually starts serving Miami Central. At least nine or ten months away, maybe more.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

As I understand it, trains will alternate between Downtown and the Airport. One difference between MARTA and Tri-Rail is that Lindbergh Center has a dedicated turn-around track and platforms on both sides of the train. Even if the infrastructure is available for such an operation, it would occur at Metrorail Transfer where it is already possible to transfer to another train to reach Downtown. For this reason and the fact that more passengers will likely go downtown than the Airport, it would make sense to have the trains from the north go downtown and the shuttles go the airport. This would mean that a large new train station with 4 platforms would be served by only shuttles. My guess is that the trains will just alternate between terminals for the foreseeable future.

 

[GBNorman]

Tri-Rail simply must continue to offer rail service into Miami Airport, for the inquiries, and resulting ranting of "waste", into why was that Intermodal Center ever built would be heard from Key West to Tallahassee (anyone ever REALLY think Amtrak was going to make use of it?)

True, a Metrorail Transfer-Airport shuttle would save train miles over Hollywood and accomplish the same purpose. It seemed to me there was more available real estate at Hollywood to build the necessary infrastructure outlined by Mr. McDonnell as exists at MARTA's Lindbergh station.

 

[jis]

If Tri-Rail is to be believed, they have already said that trains will alternate and there will be a connecting shuttle to the MIC (from Metro Transfer presumably, though it could be from further up line for operational conveience) from the trains going to Miami Central. The shuttle would actually be operated Hialeah Yard to MIC I think. So there will be more frequent service to MIC than Miami Central according to that plan. Of course 9-12 months is a long long time to change the plans a few times.

Keep in mind that there are trackage access (for FECR) and possibly other costs (e.g. dispatching fees charged by the Florida Dispatching Company) involved for Tri-Rail to go to Miami Central which it does not have for going to MIC.

 

[chrsjrcj]

I'm going to be there to ride it on May 27th so hopefully it is open. Does anyone know what the fares are going to be yet?

Introductory will still be $10 for Smart and $15/$20 for Select (depending on demand).

 

[jis]

And we hit 100 pages on this one!

 

[Anderson]

Woohoo!

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

One of the most beautiful train photos I have ever seen was of the blue set, crossing the river at Jacksonville, with water and sky that lovely Florida blue, and with boats on the water in the background. It is dated December 13, 2016, and was the first to arrive.

Have they all arrived now? (I'm sure the answer is in this thread somewhere, but 100 pages is a lot to scroll through!

)

Have they taken a class picture yet (like NS did for its Heritage series)?

 

[jis]

One of the most beautiful train photos I have ever seen was of the blue set, crossing the river at Jacksonville, with water and sky that lovely Florida blue, and with boats on the water in the background. It is dated December 13, 2016, and was the first to arrive.

Have they all arrived now? (I'm sure the answer is in this thread somewhere, but 100 pages is a lot to scroll through!

)

Have they taken a class picture yet (like NS did for its Heritage series)?

The five short sets that were scheduled to arrive for use in the Miami - West Palm Beach Service have all arrived on property quite a while back.

Eventually there will be five more sets and all sets will get lengthened to at least 8, maybe 9 cars, by 2021. The longer sets will start arriving after the tracks are built out to Orlando Airport and the maintenance facility at Orlando Airport has become functional. long sets can only be serviced there. The West palm beach facility can only handle short sets.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Thanks for the updates, jis!

 

[jis]

Brightline Adds Miami Into Schedule, Service Starts Within Weeks

Brightline’s new schedule which includes a Miami stop will begin this weekend.

Paying passengers will not yet be boarding in Miami as testing continues, but will be able to within a few weeks.

Testing has already been underway in Miami for a few weeks, but this is the first time that trains to Miami will be added to the regular schedule. In total, eleven departures per day between each city are planned.

. . . . .

https://www.thenextmiami.com/brightline-adds-miami-into-schedule-service-starts-in-weeks/

 

[Brian_tampa]

PB Post did a nice story on ridership today. Of 44 random trips their reporters made last month, they found an average of 50 riders per train. Or 20% load factor. Trips were made on trains at all times of day, every day of the week. Nice ridership for an initial segment between two stations 45 miles apart. I figure once Miami opens, those numbers will double or maybe triple initially. Looks good so far, no wonder they are happy with the numbers. When Orlando opens in 2021 they might have 75% plus load factors. Of course this is with reduced fares, so we shall see what happens when they raise the prices.

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-trains-look-empty-post-counts-how-many-were-board/WeNuCY7pgphQYy7Ywv6jFO/

 

[chrsjrcj]

SunFest is next weekend too, and even without Miami it should boost ridership.

 

[Brian_tampa]

One of the most beautiful train photos I have ever seen was of the blue set, crossing the river at Jacksonville, with water and sky that lovely Florida blue, and with boats on the water in the background. It is dated December 13, 2016, and was the first to arrive.

Have they all arrived now? (I'm sure the answer is in this thread somewhere, but 100 pages is a lot to scroll through!

)

Have they taken a class picture yet (like NS did for its Heritage series)?

The five short sets that were scheduled to arrive for use in the Miami - West Palm Beach Service have all arrived on property quite a while back.
Eventually there will be five more sets and all sets will get lengthened to at least 8, maybe 9 cars, by 2021. The longer sets will start arriving after the tracks are built out to Orlando Airport and the maintenance facility at Orlando Airport has become functional. long sets can only be serviced there. The West palm beach facility can only handle short sets.

I thought that I remember reading that the WPB repair/maintenance facility could handle the longer 7 car trains. It was to be converted to a running repair/maintenance facility only after Orlando opens. The major repairs would take place in Orlando whereas WPB would handle the minor stuff as well as interior cleaning/stocking. It appears that each of the 4 tracks in the WPB facility are around 1000 feet long. Damn I wish I could keep track of all the information I have learned over the past 6 years!
Remember, once Orlando opens AAF will have to keep at least one or two trains overnight in WPB in order to allow for early departures north the next morning from Miami. Also, AAF has designed their operations to not waste money so why would they build WPB to not handle 7 car trains?

 

[chrsjrcj]

Well the two most western tracks, track 3 and 4, typically handle two of the trainsets with room to spare. The only issue would be the pit under track 1 which is only long enough for the current trainset length. When Orlando opens, theyll do the heavy maintenance cycles there. The pit isnt necessary to do a daily inspection on the train, but does make it a lot easier.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Speaking of Orlando I took these today of the airport terminal via a bus. It looks really good.

 

[jis]

Well the two most western tracks, track 3 and 4, typically handle two of the trainsets with room to spare. The only issue would be the pit under track 1 which is only long enough for the current trainset length. When Orlando opens, theyll do the heavy maintenance cycles there. The pit isnt necessary to do a daily inspection on the train, but does make it a lot easier.

That is what I meant. The heavy repair shop for the full consists will be in Orlando. You can certainly park several full length trains at the WPB facility.

 

[GBNorman]

The article appearing in Cox's Palm Beach Post linked by Brian-Tampa within his immediate, is "interesting" and, sorry volks, not surprising.

Naturally, this "introductory period" could only have low ridership, and I'm certain that AAF management was ready to accept low ridership during such. But unfortunately at this time, I can only conclude the history of AAF is that it's providing "Disneyland rides on the cheap" - and, party at fault notwithstanding, killing people in the process. The opening of Miami Central, which could happen closer to Easter than Xmas and contrary to my prediction, could well produce enough passengers actually using the service to get from "Ehh to Bee" and to justify it's continuation as a public accommodation rather than what could well at present meet the legal standard of Public Nuisance.

 

[me_little_me]

SunFest is next weekend too, and even without Miami it should boost ridership.

Would it be better to have a separate thread for operational/ticketing/pricing issues vs future station/extension issues on Brightline? Now that Brightline is operational, it is no longer just one issue.

 

[Scott Orlando]

Some recent photos of the MCO station.

1- Facing south towards the future maintenance facilty

2,3,4- Platform pics

5- my son in front of the future station entrance

 

[Anderson]

I'm quite alright with seeing the thread start to split...right now we're approaching 2000 posts; more to the point, we have a "live" service that (as noted above) may be subject to all sorts of issues.

On the article: I tend to agree that WPB-FLL is a dubious "viable segment" as a stand-alone service, though it's also worth noting that taking 50 riders per train, presuming 22 trains/day (11 round-trips), and multiplying by 365 gives an annual ridership of just over 400k riders (and annual revenue in the range of about $5.5m, based on ridership distribution...I'm having to guess at revenue figures just a little bit, but $17.50/Select ticket and $10/Smart ticket at the ratios given in the article gives $5,339,950). I cannot speak to costs, but this is almost definitely not covering them. Worth noting is that Brightline has already bumped Select pricing; there will probably be further bumps (closing in on a "full" dynamic pricing model).

However, it does seem likely on this basis that MIA-FLL-WPB should bump those levels much closer to a million riders per year (WPB-MIA in an hour is a very substantial offering), something which would probably at least get the service reasonably close to break-even (since I'm going to guess that per-passenger revenue would also bump substantially).

Edit: Let's play with some numbers, shall we? Let's presume that, with three-station service, Brightline gets the following breakdown in ridership:

-350k WPB-FLL (a modest reduction from current numbers)

-350k FLL-MIA
-400k WPB-MIA

Select pricing goes to $15-30 WPB-FLL (average price $22), $15-25 MIA-FLL (average price $20), and $20-40 MIA-FLL (average price $30). Overall, Select ridership drops to about 25% of ridership (though it's closer to 35% for the full-length market).
Smart pricing becomes slightly dynamic, going to $10-15 for either WPB-FLL (avg $12.50) or FLL-MIA (avg $12.00) and $15-20 WPB-MIA (avg $17.50).

By segment, we'd get the following:
-WPB-FLL: 75k Select ($1.65m), 275k Smart ($3.44m)

-FLL-MIA: 60k Select ($1.20m), 290k Smart ($3.48m)

-WPB-MIA: 140k Select ($4.20m), 260k Smart ($4.55m)
Overall revenue would be sitting at $18.52m/yr at that point.

I have no idea how reasonable this is or how far it would go towards covering costs.

 

[cirdan]

The five short sets that were scheduled to arrive for use in the Miami - West Palm Beach Service have all arrived on property quite a while back.

Eventually there will be five more sets and all sets will get lengthened to at least 8, maybe 9 cars, by 2021. The longer sets will start arriving after the tracks are built out to Orlando Airport and the maintenance facility at Orlando Airport has become functional. long sets can only be serviced there. The West palm beach facility can only handle short sets.

So the WPB facility cannot be extended / modified to handle longer sets?

Is that a total lack of foresight, or was this facility never intended to be permanent?

 

[Anderson]

The five short sets that were scheduled to arrive for use in the Miami - West Palm Beach Service have all arrived on property quite a while back.

Eventually there will be five more sets and all sets will get lengthened to at least 8, maybe 9 cars, by 2021. The longer sets will start arriving after the tracks are built out to Orlando Airport and the maintenance facility at Orlando Airport has become functional. long sets can only be serviced there. The West palm beach facility can only handle short sets.

So the WPB facility cannot be extended / modified to handle longer sets?

Is that a total lack of foresight, or was this facility never intended to be permanent?

I suspect it was never intended to be permanent. In an ideal world, Brightline would have been able to roll out service on the whole route all at once. Obviously, among other issues, the holding-up of the loans to cover the Orlando segment slowed down construction.