Brightline Trains West!

[cirdan]

Never seen much more then that other then in England and the Netherlands, where I've seen videos, pictures, and even have pictures I've purchased myself of trains made up of up to five multiple units in one train. Of course that was with older multiple units, as newer trains over there seem to be with the standard of many European railroads of having either a long trainset, or 2-3 shorter trainsets to form a service.

I guess the older sets did not use software for control and there was often also no or only severely limited feedback from the controlled unit to the controlling unit. I think on the old Dutch trains there was a single red light on the engineer's console that was labelled something like "malfunction on controlled unit" (in Dutch of course) and then it was the engineer's task to figure out what that malfunction might be (or even which unit it was occurring on). Sometimes a reset would suffice to clear a pertinent malfunction with nobody being any the wiser.

The number of units that could be controlled, or the length of the train that could be controlled, was thus essentially limited only by attenuation of the control signals along a not very well EMC-protected cable connected using sometimes dirty or corroded contact sockets between units. But with rather robust low frequency pulses being used for the controls, there was plenty of reserve.

On a software based system, the number of units that can be controlled can sometimes be limited by very trivial things such as the number of software addresses that are available or how they are allocated or even the compatibility of different software versions and how these talk to one another. These can equally be fixed by essentially trivial programming (comparatively speaking) should there be a need. Its just that nobody has so far ever had a need to run three or more ICE sets together for example.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Its just that nobody has so far ever had a need to run three or more ICE sets together for example.

Older multiple units, I need to do more research into Dutch's older generation of multiple units. As for England, it was a matter of coupling the units up with a knuckle coupler (only for trains with electro pneumatic brakes), connecting the jumper hoses, and the train was off after a brake check.

I don't think the need for trains that long will come, whether it's DB, SNCF, Brightline, etc. Many countries have standardized on high speed trainsets being either 200 or 400 meters long (there are some exceptions to that length, but a thread on that subject in the international rail would be cool).

Many of those countries also have some of the same issues we're trying to address ourselves in the US (see Amtrak's long distance fleet replacement thread). Like trying to order rolling stock that can carry many passengers while trying to fit onto platforms that aren't long, ordering rolling stock that is friendly to disabled and wheelchair passengers, etc.

 

[jis]

Older multiple units, I need to do more research into Dutch's older generation of multiple units. As for England, it was a matter of coupling the units up with a knuckle coupler (only for trains with electro pneumatic brakes), connecting the jumper hoses, and the train was off after a brake check.

The last few times I have done serious local service riding in the UK I noticed that most of the new EMUs and DMUs have some variety of Scharfenberg Couplers that automatically connect up control lines and brake lines. The operator just sits in the cab and presses button to decouple and also to test completion of coupling. That is why they can separate two units so swiftly in service and have them head off different ways at a junction station.

 

[cirdan]

The last few times I have done serious local service riding in the UK I noticed that most of the new EMUs and DMUs have some variety of Scharfenberg Couplers that automatically connect up control lines and brake lines. The operator just sits in the cab and presses button to decouple and also to test completion of coupling. That is why they can separate two units so swiftly in service and have them head off different ways at a ju7nction station.

The Dutch have been doing something similar since pre WW2, using couplings that I think are not actually strictly real Scharfenberg but something quite similar. Electric and pneumatic contacts were established through pins mounted on the coupler and engaged automatically. Nevertheless the control protocol is not digital but is something that uses electrical pulses and that remained basically unchanged from the 1930s right up until the 1970s or thereabouts, which was why virtually any type of unit could be coupled to any other type, and even diesel and electric units could be run in mixed trains. The modern units that came since about the mid 1980s use digital computerised control which is why older and newer units never ran in mixed trains, and indeed even as every generation since then re-invents the wheel, even different generations of modern unit cannot run in coupled sets AFAIK.

The Dutch were also AFAIK also early adopters of units being separated or joined up en-route, which is how many smaller branch lines were able to gain direct train connections to the major cities.

 

[user 1215]

the 7 car set is 202m, they lengthend each car which is why its down from 8 for a 200m set

86.5' cars vs 75'? How long can train cars be? Seems like this would limit turning radii - perhaps not an issue if the goal is high speed where you don't want tight turns anyway. But it'll have to enter an urban environment at some point, I'd imagine.

 

[GDRRiley]

86.5' cars vs 75'? How long can train cars be? Seems like this would limit turning radii - perhaps not an issue if the goal is high speed where you don't want tight turns anyway. But it'll have to enter an urban environment at some point, I'd imagine.

sounds right the document I linked above I believe states it
85ft is the common pax car length with some freight cars going to 89-90ft long

 

[Caesar La Rock]

The intermediate cars of an 8 car Velaro set is 79' 3in. and the driving cars at either end are 84' 4in. We're looking at some really long sets that'll be at 202m long or 662' 8in long.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

The Dutch have been doing something similar since pre WW2, using couplings that I think are not actually strictly real Scharfenberg but something quite similar. Electric and pneumatic contacts were established through pins mounted on the coupler and engaged automatically. Nevertheless the control protocol is not digital but is something that uses electrical pulses and that remained basically unchanged from the 1930s right up until the 1970s or thereabouts, which was why virtually any type of unit could be coupled to any other type, and even diesel and electric units could be run in mixed trains. The modern units that came since about the mid 1980s use digital computerised control which is why older and newer units never ran in mixed trains, and indeed even as every generation since then re-invents the wheel, even different generations of modern unit cannot run in coupled sets AFAIK.

The Dutch were also AFAIK also early adopters of units being separated or joined up en-route, which is how many smaller branch lines were able to gain direct train connections to the major cities.

Dellner is a company in Sweden that produces couplers. It's similar to the Scharfenberg and is used on many multiple units in countries like in the UK and even the SNCF to name a few.

 

[frequentflyer]

How did Siemens widen the body so much on standard gauge? This line will have catenary? Wonder why Brightline did not piggyback off the Alstom order.

Then again Brightline is familiar with Siemens.

 

[GDRRiley]

How did Siemens widen the body so much on standard gauge? This line will have catenary? Wonder why Brightline did not piggyback off the Alstom order.

its using North American vs Europe loading gauge. 10ft6in is the standard for pax cars. Venture cars are the same width with Superliner and the later versions being 10ft 2in. while horizons are 10ft.
Because alstom has a very expensive and overly complex train for the route. It was trying to be a jack of all trades which makes it expensive. Siemens on the other hand has a much more simplified train which is designed for 1 thing. High speed running on new tracks

 

[jis]

How did Siemens widen the body so much on standard gauge? This line will have catenary? Wonder why Brightline did not piggyback off the Alstom order.

Then again Brightline is familiar with Siemens.

At 10'10" it would be just 4" wider than the common 10'6" in the US.

Incidentally the standard width of the loading gauge used in East Asia on Standard Gauge track is 11'2", including in all Chinese HSR and Japanese Shinkansen. So 10'10" is nothing astounding at all.

More interesting is the 94' car length.

 

[Anderson]

How did Siemens widen the body so much on standard gauge? This line will have catenary? Wonder why Brightline did not piggyback off the Alstom order.

Then again Brightline is familiar with Siemens.

Part of the reason is that loading gauge and track gauge aren't absolutely tied to one another. So if you move the tracks and set the platforms up a bit differently, you can fiddle around a bit...as long as you're not expecting to use the cars somewhere else that's not compatible.

[Witness the New York City Subway systems...two different loading gauges means two different sets of car orders.]

 

[frequentflyer]

There is already a Metrolink station at Rancho Cucamonga (same station as proposed terminus?), so perhaps a schedule coordination, especially on weekends. Also of note, though not sure of its relevancy, is that it is about a 15-30 minute bus ride (or a 10 minute Uber) to Ontario airport.

California has some of the coolest names for towns and cities. Rancho Cucamonga?............Love it.

 

[frequentflyer]

One base assumption that may be premature and/or incorrect is that Rancho Cucamonga forever will be its terminus in the LA basin. There have been reports about background negotiations with MetroLink to get from the Rancho Cucamonga area to LAUS, nothing concrete enough to make any announcements, specially since it involves electrification and all that.

But meanwhile, for the time being, Ranch Cucamonga is a heck of a lot better than terminating at Victorville.

That is HUGE news is true. The business side of this venture just took huge leaps forward.

Wouldn't BNSF be included in those discussions too?

 

[frequentflyer]

I guess Siemens' Novo EMU provided better performance on the computer over Cajon compared to Alstom's Avelia's two motor cars. The Avelia can be had without the expensive tilt system. The Avelia has shared boogies while the Novo does not, supposedly shared boogies provides a more stable and comfortable ride. While the techy stuff is cool, pretty sure it came down to price, and the fact that Siemens is in the backyard doesn't hurt.

 

[GDRRiley]

California has some of the coolest names for towns and cities. Rancho Cucamonga?............Love it.

We've got wide mix of city names however most are spanish

Wouldn't BNSF be included in those discussions too?

Nope BNSF is not in the discussion because it doesn't use their line over the mountain nor do they own the line the RC station is on

 

[frequentflyer]

We've got wide mix of city names however most are spanish

Nope BNSF is not in the discussion because it doesn't use their line over the mountain nor do they own the line the RC station is on
View attachment 31282

Thank you, I was thinking of the line going through Fullerton, I see there are a parallel lines to LAUS.

 

[JermyZP]

Brightline will help in building three wild life crossings over the I-15

 

[GDRRiley]

if this crossing are anything like CAHSR it will be some small culverts
rendering from brightline

 

[frequentflyer]

A real high speed rail service outside the NEC. Just letting this sink in. If California chooses the same equipment they might get a discount with bulk ordering. Thanks for the rendering.

 

[jis]

if this crossing are anything like CAHSR it will be some small culverts
rendering from brightline
View attachment 31378

That looks suspiciously like Siemens Velaro of some variation.

 

[GDRRiley]

That looks suspiciously like Siemens Velaro of some variation.

yeah brightline has has been talking about Velaro Novas. They filled paperwork with the FRA to get them approved

 

[joelkfla]

if this crossing are anything like CAHSR it will be some small culverts
rendering from brightline
View attachment 31378

They're overcrossings, not undercrossings -- some sort of turf-covered bridge over the rails and traffic lanes. Other existing and proposed ones range from normal width bridges to wide, heavily landscaped constructions.

 

[Ziv]

Utah built wildlife overpasses and covered them with gravel and dead tree trunks to make it look more natural. The animals took to it fairly quickly. Not sure if it reduced the traffic deaths of migratory animals much, but it can not hurt.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/26/us/utah-wildlife-bridge-trnd/index.htmlI think they are finding that the gravel cover is easier to maintain than the grass covered ones, but they still build both, I believe.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Aak2_r6zEgU/T-xtBwBGmHI/AAAAAAAAD-E/FrhfDlKFjr8/s1600/green_bridge.jpgThese overpasses are not that expensive for a 2 lane road with moderate shoulders, but when you get to pricing them for 4 or 6 lane interstates they get rather pricey. Still worth it in my book.

 

[Fenway]

Channel 5 in LA aired this 2 days ago