Can VIA learn from Amtrak?

[CHamilton]

From National Dream Renewed on Facebook.

John J. Bakker : Why doesn't Via Rail learn from Amtrak


In a recent presentation Joseph H. Boardman, president of Amtrak told a mid-west rail conference that VIA Rail is "in trouble". He cited declining VIA ridership while Amtrak's is increasing. According to President Boardman, part of the explanation is that VIA has tried to become a "tourist railroad" while Amtrak has remained focused on providing useful transportation.

Why does not VIA return to providing daily passenger rail service with shorter trains, catering to the multitude of movements between the many pairs of communities along its route both in Eastern and Western Canada? Look at Amtrak's Empire Builder to compare and discover VIA's dismissal record. Also why does Via obstruct the release of cost data by route?

John J. Bakker
Professor-Emeritus University of Alberta Civil Engineering (Transportation)
now living in British Columbia.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Hopefully Dr. Bakker realizes that the Harper Government is Anti-Rail, even more so than some of our Members of Congress and Governors of some States! If it wasnt for Amtrak Joe and some of the East and West Coast Politicians that support Rail we'd probably be in the same Boat as Canada when it comes to Rail Transportation!

Also some of us know that Train Travel of all Types in Canada is Considerably more Expensive than in the US

(including Taxes that we don't pay here on Rail Travel)and that Caandians are also Generally Taxed much more than we are with the Exceptions of a few "High Tax" States like the NE and Caliifornia! Theres a strong Grass Roots Movement in Canada to cut Government Spending and Taxes, sort of like the T-Party Movement here but of course much more Polite and Civil! <_<

 

[gaspeamtrak]

Via Rail is in trouble!

The people in Montreal who are running Via don't really care about any trains that run over 500 miles which was the president of Via said.

I will say Via's fares are a lot higher than Amtrak's +the HST tax added on to the price, ouch!. If you can catch the 50% off sales Via has it's not to bad.

Via's Express deals of up to 75% off are mainly just for the Canadian and once in a blue moon for the Ocean.

Via's rebuild of the LRC cars is total mess with the company contracted out to do this went bankrupt with only about 10 cars rebuilt that I know about.

It was mostly politics of who got the rebuild contracts for the F-40's and the LRC'S but I won't get into that here!

In my honest opinion Amtrak is by far the superior intercity company with a vision and is doing something about it! (Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Locomotive & Viewliner II"s for example)

Enough said before I get into trouble.

 

[Anderson]

Well, at least part of the problem is that no province has seriously looked at running new passenger services of their own or in conjunction with VIA since BCRail got hived off. The fact that the Rocky Mountaineer got chucked off as well as soon as it was in the black didn't help things, though at least there you could debate the transportation utility of the service (once a week on a different schedule from the Canadian).

 

[MikefromCrete]

Well, at least part of the problem is that no province has seriously looked at running new passenger services of their own or in conjunction with VIA since BCRail got hived off. The fact that the Rocky Mountaineer got chucked off as well as soon as it was in the black didn't help things, though at least there you could debate the transportation utility of the service (once a week on a different schedule from the Canadian).

Hasn't the Rocky Mountaineer always been a private operation?

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Well, at least part of the problem is that no province has seriously looked at running new passenger services of their own or in conjunction with VIA since BCRail got hived off. The fact that the Rocky Mountaineer got chucked off as well as soon as it was in the black didn't help things, though at least there you could debate the transportation utility of the service (once a week on a different schedule from the Canadian).

Hasn't the Rocky Mountaineer always been a private operation?

No, it was originally started by VIA in 1988 as the “Canadian Rockies By Daylight”......then privatized. Great Canadian Rail Tours picked up the service as the Rocky Mountaineer and acquired the exCN “Dayniter” fleet the trains were using.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Outside of the “core” corridor routes, Canada just doesn’t have the population density to justify an expansion of passenger rail where it would provide a real travel alternative.

Passengers on the Ocean out of Halifax long ago abandoned VIA (not the other way around!) for the frequent airline service to central Canada (2hr vs 24hr). It would be nice to see a break-down in numbers for particular segments of a route: I rode the Ocean out of Halifax several times last winter after the cut to 3/week and the Friday and Sunday trains seemed just as busy (with students in particular) as they were previously. The Tuesday departure was as dead as the mid-week trains were before the cuts. But I was sorry to see that portion of the Ocean’s route cut to 3/week from Moncton and west as it always seemed busy.

And like the Ocean out of Halifax, passengers long ago abandoned VIA and the “Canadian” between Toronto and Winnipeg as a viable alternative......a day and a half by train vs: a 2 hour flight. Besides Sudbury, there’s just nothing in the 1950km’s other than providing the remote service requirements to isolated communities.

The Canadian as a Tourist Train seems to work just fine, providing an economic benefit to on line communities such as Jasper and is perhaps a good candidate for privatization......possibly to Rocky Mountaineer. I could still see Ottawa providing a subsidy for coach travel as part of a remote services agreement.

In the future, the prairies could see intercity service. In particular HSR between Calgary and Edmonton....cities 300km apart with populations of a million + each.

 

[Bob Dylan]

:hi: Always good to get the perspective of someone from the Great White North that knows and likes Trains!

Isn't the Canadian similar to the Empire Builder in that it connects two Large/Major Cities with a Couple of other Cities in between and Miles and Miles and Miles of Not much along the way! The Oil Boom in North Dakota seems to be helping the Builder, is the Oil patch in Northern Alberta doing the same for the Canadian?? And of course in the Summer they both become Tourist Trains for Expensive Land Cruises!!

 

[MikefromCrete]

Actually, the Canadian is sold as a tourist train. Most people don't ride it to get from one place to another. Just look at the number of sleepers vs. the number of coaches. Amtrak trains serve local needs first. If someone wants to use it as a land cruise, they can, but it isn't really sold that way. Everyone raves about the meals and service on the Canadian. In that respect, it's like a cruise ship. Amtrak, on other hand, actually offers connections for people who live along the way. And Amtrak's flag stops don't require three days advance notice, or whatever is required on the Canadian. Via would be more useful to Canadians by running trains the way Amtrak does. One of these days, the Canadian will be become an election issue. "What do you mean we spend that much money so Europeans, Asians and Americans can ride cruise trains."

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Isn't the Canadian similar to the Empire Builder in that it connects two Large/Major Cities with a Couple of other Cities in between and Miles and Miles and Miles of Not much along the way! The Oil Boom in North Dakota seems to be helping the Builder, is the Oil patch in Northern Alberta doing the same for the Canadian??........

The oil-boom city of Fort McMurray hasnt had rail passenger service since the Northern Alberta Railway abandoned a mixed-train route in the 80s. Fort Mc is sometimes referred to as Newfoundlands second largest city for the number of oil workers that have moved there. When heading home for a visit......they just hop on the 5 hr non-stop to St. Johns or Deer Lake vs: the 5 or 6 day....train-bus-ferry ride. Same goes for the Ontario workers.......a quick flight home.

>>>>>

Leaving Chicago, the EB hits Milwaukee 2 hrs out then the Twin Cities about 8 hrs out. On the other hand.....after the Canadian leaves Toronto, it has to cross nearly 2000 KM of sparsely populated northern Ontario before reaching Winnipeg (nearly due north of Minneapolis) a day and a half later. Passengers long ago abandoned the Canadian for the 2 hr flight to Winnipeg. And as I previously said, there will likely be some form of intercity service on the Prairies in the future.....HSR between Calgary and Edmonton.

 

[AlanB]

One of these days, the Canadian will be become an election issue. "What do you mean we spend that much money so Europeans, Asians and Americans can ride cruise trains."

Well anything is always possible, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there are some who do say that already. However, tourism is big business in Canada and I think that many people do realize that. Certainly at least some of the politicians realize that. Canadian MP Charlie Angus once relayed to me what he said to the Minister in charge of the CBSA (Canadian Border Services Agency) "We're up here on the hill trying to find ways to get American tourists to come to Canada and your people (CBSA) are busy tossing them out of Canada. Something's wrong here!"

 

[yarrow]

And Amtrak's flag stops don't require three days advance notice, or whatever is required on the Canadian.

flagstops on the canadian require 40 min notice from the last station where a passenger list was issued. on the northern routes the trains will stop if you flag them down, no notice required. try flagging down the eb and then loading your canoe in the baggage car.

 

[CHamilton]

Via Rail first-quarter profit triples to $11.5 million after service cuts

MONTREAL—Via Rail managed to trim operating losses and increase net income to $11.5 million in the first quarter despite a dip in revenues after the passenger railway reduced long-haul service.
The arms-length Crown corporation said Thursday that its profits for the period ended March 31 increased from $3.9 million a year earlier.
Via benefited from reduced operating expenses, lower capital spending and higher government subsidies.
Its operating loss of $89 million was down 2.6 per cent from the prior year. Government subsidies increased 4.8 per cent to $83.3 million.
It earned $11.5 million after recording $17.2 million in amortization of deferred capital funding, compared with $15.9 million in the prior year.
Total revenues fell to $59 million as a 2.7 per cent increase in passenger revenues in the key Ontario-Quebec corridor was offset by steep reductions in southwestern Ontario and the Ocean line between Montreal and Halifax.
Revenues in the Eastern corridor, which account for 82 per cent of overall revenues, increased to $37.8 million on increased frequencies.
Ocean revenues were down 46.7 per cent to $1.6 million while Southwestern Ontario revenues fell 12 per cent to $9.5 million. Revenues on The Canadian route between Toronto and Vancouver were unchanged at $3.7 million.

 

[TVRM610]

Isn't the Canadian similar to the Empire Builder in that it connects two Large/Major Cities with a Couple of other Cities in between and Miles and Miles and Miles of Not much along the way! The Oil Boom in North Dakota seems to be helping the Builder, is the Oil patch in Northern Alberta doing the same for the Canadian?? And of course in the Summer they both become Tourist Trains for Expensive Land Cruises!!

Having ridden both the Canadian and the Empire Builder in the past 6 months they are worlds apart. There are people who use the Canadian as transportation, and there are people who use the Empire Builder as a land cruise but in general the Canadian is much more a tourist train. It made me sad when I rode the Canadian to hear Americans say "we cam to ride this train because of how terrible Amtrak is" - I tried to politely argue with them.. but I just gave up. (I found it ironic that they complained how Amtrak was always late while we were sitting on a siding on a train that was 4 hours behind schedule).

 

[Bob Dylan]

Isn't the Canadian similar to the Empire Builder in that it connects two Large/Major Cities with a Couple of other Cities in between and Miles and Miles and Miles of Not much along the way! The Oil Boom in North Dakota seems to be helping the Builder, is the Oil patch in Northern Alberta doing the same for the Canadian?? And of course in the Summer they both become Tourist Trains for Expensive Land Cruises!!

Having ridden both the Canadian and the Empire Builder in the past 6 months they are worlds apart. There are people who use the Canadian as transportation, and there are people who use the Empire Builder as a land cruise but in general the Canadian is much more a tourist train. It made me sad when I rode the Canadian to hear Americans say "we cam to ride this train because of how terrible Amtrak is" - I tried to politely argue with them.. but I just gave up. (I found it ironic that they complained how Amtrak was always late while we were sitting on a siding on a train that was 4 hours behind schedule).

I heard the same thing in Feb. on the Canadian between Vancouver and Toronto where we arrived 7 Hours Late into Union Station due to Freights getting the Right of way!! A Group of Railroaders (Canadian and American) were on the trip and Fred Fraley of "Trains" was on the train and wrote a Column about it! Id ride either Train in a Minute but I still like the Canadian Better when the Fares are @ a Discount!

 

[Nathanael]

Outside of the core corridor routes, Canada just doesnt have the population density to justify an expansion of passenger rail where it would provide a real travel alternative.

Unfortunately, VIA has been axing service in Southern Ontario, which most certainly does have the population density.
In the 2012 round of cuts, the part I was most bitter about was the cuts to Windsor, Sarnia, and Niagara Falls service.

But I was sorry to see that portion of the Oceans route cut to 3/week from Moncton and west as it always seemed busy.

That was everyone else's report too; that the Ocean was busy from Moncton west. So of course Laliberte cut it.
These were not well-thought-out cuts. VIA made no effort to maintain or improve the services with potential. And that is not good.

The more recent round of cuts, in 2013, is basically the elimination of staffed stations in Southern Ontario, and elimination of Redcaps. That might actually work out fine -- VIA had high station staffing levels, before -- but it continues the trend where VIA is abandoning "corridor extensions".

Amtrak's highly successful strategy has been to promote "corridor extensions" -- a strategy which has seen the Virginia corridors, Keystone corridor, Empire corridor, and New England services beefed up, sped up, and generally improved.

VIA's "strategy" feels in many ways like the *opposite*. Therefore, I do not have a good feeling about the future of VIA.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Via Rail first-quarter profit triples to $11.5 million after service cuts

MONTREAL—Via Rail managed to trim operating losses and increase net income to $11.5 million in the first quarter despite a dip in revenues after the passenger railway reduced long-haul service.
The arms-length Crown corporation said Thursday that its profits for the period ended March 31 increased from $3.9 million a year earlier.
Via benefited from reduced operating expenses, lower capital spending and higher government subsidies.
Its operating loss of $89 million was down 2.6 per cent from the prior year. Government subsidies increased 4.8 per cent to $83.3 million.
It earned $11.5 million after recording $17.2 million in amortization of deferred capital funding, compared with $15.9 million in the prior year.
Total revenues fell to $59 million as a 2.7 per cent increase in passenger revenues in the key Ontario-Quebec corridor was offset by steep reductions in southwestern Ontario and the Ocean line between Montreal and Halifax.
Revenues in the Eastern corridor, which account for 82 per cent of overall revenues, increased to $37.8 million on increased frequencies.
Ocean revenues were down 46.7 per cent to $1.6 million while Southwestern Ontario revenues fell 12 per cent to $9.5 million. Revenues on The Canadian route between Toronto and Vancouver were unchanged at $3.7 million.

How in the world does VIA Rail even make a profit? I thought that it was always the old phrase of No Passenger Train Makes Money. This sounds either fishy or acutally amazing for train service to make money.

Privatization may be good as soon as possible, because if a profit is actually there, then a private company might save more of the system rather then the government-owned VIA Rail cutting loads of trains.

 

[Trogdor]

They had an operating loss. If I were to wager a guess (don't feel like digging through their financial statements), I'd say that their net income includes federal subsidy as some sort of revenue number.

By those standards, even Amtrak could claim to be profitable on occasion, if their federal subsidy exceeds their operating loss. However, Amtrak accounts for federal subsidy differently.

 

[jis]

They had an operating loss. If I were to wager a guess (don't feel like digging through their financial statements), I'd say that their net income includes federal subsidy as some sort of revenue number.
By those standards, even Amtrak could claim to be profitable on occasion, if their federal subsidy exceeds their operating loss. However, Amtrak accounts for federal subsidy differently.

Though it appears even Amtrak counts State subsidies on the income side of the ledger in their financial reporting, and not as subsidy.

 

[Trogdor]

Amtrak does, though in that sense you could see it as Amtrak selling their services to the state as a customer. The federal subsidy, though, is not considered revenue (hence my specifying "federal" in my previous post).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

They had an operating loss. If I were to wager a guess (don't feel like digging through their financial statements), I'd say that their net income includes federal subsidy as some sort of revenue number.
By those standards, even Amtrak could claim to be profitable on occasion, if their federal subsidy exceeds their operating loss. However, Amtrak accounts for federal subsidy differently.

That's not ver fair to report that VIA makes a "profit." Their operating loss isn't going to earn any favours with the private investors.

They had an operating loss. If I were to wager a guess (don't feel like digging through their financial statements), I'd say that their net income includes federal subsidy as some sort of revenue number.
By those standards, even Amtrak could claim to be profitable on occasion, if their federal subsidy exceeds their operating loss. However, Amtrak accounts for federal subsidy differently.

Though it appears even Amtrak counts State subsidies on the income side of the ledger in their financial reporting, and not as subsidy.

What?! So this is why Amtrak always says it has less losses on SD trains instead of LD. In the end, they probably have around the same losses per passenger mile.

 

[Trogdor]

What private investors?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

What private investors?

Private companies coule take over some VIA Rail trains as rail cruises if Harper tries to axe all the Canadian LD routes.

 

[Anderson]

They had an operating loss. If I were to wager a guess (don't feel like digging through their financial statements), I'd say that their net income includes federal subsidy as some sort of revenue number.
By those standards, even Amtrak could claim to be profitable on occasion, if their federal subsidy exceeds their operating loss. However, Amtrak accounts for federal subsidy differently.

That's not ver fair to report that VIA makes a "profit." Their operating loss isn't going to earn any favours with the private investors.

They had an operating loss. If I were to wager a guess (don't feel like digging through their financial statements), I'd say that their net income includes federal subsidy as some sort of revenue number.
By those standards, even Amtrak could claim to be profitable on occasion, if their federal subsidy exceeds their operating loss. However, Amtrak accounts for federal subsidy differently.

Though it appears even Amtrak counts State subsidies on the income side of the ledger in their financial reporting, and not as subsidy.

What?! So this is why Amtrak always says it has less losses on SD trains instead of LD. In the end, they probably have around the same losses per passenger mile.

Look at the monthly performance reports for Amtrak. There are two reports: One lists ticket sales and farebox revenue (this would be on pages A 3.3-3.5). The other lists total revenue, including OBS and (where relevant) state funding (C1-3).