Canadian and Ocean cancelled

[NS VIA Fan]

Then I'll list the switching moves. In Halifax I would do this in the yard off the Bedford Highway

Power Pack=F40PH-3, Baggage, F40PH-3, Park Car

Interesting idea but expensive when you consider the 12 mile roundtrip over the single track out to Rockingham Yard so I think it would be pretty hard to get CN on board. This stretch of track is only going to get busier with the upgrades underway at the container terminal.....and that was one of the reasons VIA lost access to the loop track in the first place.

VIA has made their decision on the Ocean's configuration come November and I'm not optimistic it will include a Dome.

 

[Seaboard92]

What VIA really needs and I can never stress it enough is statutory rights similar to Amtrak's to force CP and CN to actually take the trains, and run them efficiently. But that is even more of a hard dream compared to the Ocean having some form of a dome. I really do think the double Park has some merit. If they could modify the station track area you could still do it. It's more difficult to do the switching in the terminal but it can be done.

VIA just needs a shortline railroader, they know how to switch without a proper yard. I volunteer myself.

 

[jiml]

VIA has made their decision on the Ocean's configuration come November and I'm not optimistic it will include a Dome.

You would be right - at least not a Park car. There are parked Skylines if they chose to go that direction and need to offer food service as well, although there is no food on any other route. My guess is 3 Budd coaches and a Skyline, with no sleepers. I have a November trip to Moncton hanging on this and I ain't going in coach with no food.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

You would be right - at least not a Park car. There are parked Skylines if they chose to go that direction and need to offer food service as well, although there is no food on any other route. My guess is 3 Budd coaches and a Skyline, with no sleepers. I have a November trip to Moncton hanging on this and I ain't going in coach with no food.

Up until 2003 when the Renaissance cars first appeared....the Ocean always carried two domes: a Skyline for economy passengers and the Park Car for the sleepers. The trains were operating 6 days/week and 3 consists were required.





During the summer.....there was also an extra block of Chateau Sleepers that would be dropped in Moncton each morning by the e/b Ocean then picked up in the afternoon by the w/b train back to Montreal. With the short-turn at Moncton.....only two blocks of sleepers were required.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And I wouldn't rule out sleepers not being available in November yet. The current info on the web page is inconclusive....and existing sleeper reservations for November are still valid.....they're just not accepting new sleeper reservations at this time.

”Due to the uncertainty with the COVID situation, we have blocked the sale of Sleeper Plus Class in November and December on the Ocean. This measure will remain in place until such time as we have a better understanding of the services we will be able to offer. Existing reservations remain valid at this moment.”

 

[jiml]

I had forgotten about dropping cars at Moncton, which could be a solution for the Park car turn if it was one of the sleepers dropped. There is a wye just west of there IIRC. Really, given the timings in both directions through Moncton, they could drop all the sleepers and diner there and turn them for the reverse journey. The last/first 4 hours of the trip could be completed "coach-only". Not an ideal way to treat first class passengers (although they could be provided with a box lunch leaving Halifax), but sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

.........Really, given the timings in both directions through Moncton, they could drop all the sleepers and diner there and turn them for the reverse journey. The last/first 4 hours of the trip could be completed "coach-only". Not an ideal way to treat first class passengers (although they could be provided with a box lunch leaving Halifax), but sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures.

Don't know why VIA just doesn't do that anyway!

For the past several years VIA has been proposing an 'Intercity' train running between Halifax-Moncton-Campbellton daily...supplementing the tri-weekly Ocean. Just run the Ocean between Montreal and Moncton and connect with the 'Intercity' train to continue onto Halifax. I ride the Ocean often and other than Summer and Holidays....the sleepers really aren't that busy between Halifax and Moncton but they do fill from Moncton and west on the quick overnight run to Montreal.

Between June 1985 and January 1990.....the Ocean did only operate between Montreal and Moncton. At Moncton you had to change trains and connect with the 'Atlantic' if you were travelling onto Halifax.

Here's the Atlantic (right) and Ocean (left) at Moncton in April 1986 (CN was helping out with a GP40 that day!)





The Atlantic on the left (below) had a 'Park Car'.....the Ocean did not but had Coaches, DayNiter, Sleepers and a 'Cafe-Lounge' instead of separate Diner and Lounge cars.

 

[jiml]

Don't know why VIA just doesn't do that anyway!

Great post and pics as usual, and yes, you've nailed it. Weren't we just discussing the need for a local train between Halifax and those points in the thread about Boston to Halifax service? The Air Canada cuts in the region only add to the need. I thought of two issues though - one fairly easy to resolve; the other I'm not sure. First, the crew base and maintenance is done in Halifax, although I'm sure movable to Moncton. (The crew on my Ocean trip last summer were concerned about relocating to Montreal or Matapedia anyway.) Secondly, unlike your pic above, I think there's now only one platform track in Moncton with the others pulled up or in serious disrepair. I also recall a back-up move there, suggesting one end of the platform track doesn't properly connect to the main. (Google Earth isn't much help.)

 

[Seaboard92]

Secondly, unlike your pic above, I think there's now only one platform track in Moncton with the others pulled up or in serious disrepair. I also recall a back-up move there, suggesting one end of the platform track doesn't properly connect to the main. (Google Earth isn't much help.)

The second platform track is still in there but it looks like it hasn't seen use in over a decade. Before putting a passenger train in there I would definitely insist on some track work. I don't know what the issue is with the east side switch in the station area but VIA has been backing in and out of Moncton because of it. My first trip on the Ocean it was in service we went out both ends of the Moncton platform siding. However the next two trips we backed in or out. One time was because the EB Ocean was on the platform when we arrived. The other I don't know what the issue with it was. However on the map the switch still connects.

I think instead of going to Campbellton with the RDC service they should instead go down to St. John, NB which would make much more sense. Especially given the regional flights that connect the two airports proving the need for an intercity connection in that area. In my honest opinion I think the six day a week service or better yet daily service is needed on the Ocean route. It's a great little route and it is my favorite in the system.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Moncton had 4 tracks with platforms at one time.



When a new overpass was constructed west of the station the CN mainline was reconfigured to swing around southeast of the old platforms and tracks......so there's the possibility to reconstruct a platform.

Google Maps








There is a power-switch at the west end of the station platform track to the CN mainline but not on the east end. Travelling on the Ocean westbound....we've always just run through....no back-up and I assume this is because a crew member can get off the unit when they reach the switch on the east side....throw the switch then realign once the train is in on the platform track and stopped. It's near the station and the crew is booking off anyway. The new crew just departs west through the power-switch.

A bit different eastbound. The Ocean would have to pass through the east switch to enter the CN main. The switch would have to be realigned after the Park passes. That crew member now has to walk the length of possibly 20+ car train to re-board the unit. Easier to just back out through the power-switch and be on their way east.

Perhaps if Moncton gets busier.....a power-switch at the east end will be installed.

 

[jiml]

Moncton had 4 tracks with platforms at one time.



When a new overpass was constructed west of the station the CN mainline was reconfigured to swing around southeast of the old platforms and tracks......so there's the possibility to reconstruct a platform.

Google Maps








There is a power-switch at the west end of the station platform track to the CN mainline but not on the east end. Travelling on the Ocean westbound....we've always just run through....no back-up and I assume this is because a crew member can get off the unit when they reach the switch on the east side....throw the switch then realign once the train is in on the platform track and stopped. It's near the station and the crew is booking off anyway. The new crew just departs west through the power-switch.

A bit different eastbound. The Ocean would have to pass through the east switch to enter the CN main. The switch would have to be realigned after the Park passes. That crew member now has to walk the length of possibly 20+ car train to re-board the unit. Easier to just back out through the power-switch and be on their way east.

Perhaps if Moncton gets busier.....a power-switch at the east end will be installed.

You can certainly see the remnants of the tracks and unused platforms in satellite images - I'm just not sure they're up-to-date and that the situation has deteriorated further. That's why I thought it might be a problem, as anything with a dollar amount attached seems to be a problem for VIA. On my most recent trip last November, we entered and backed out eastbound, backed in and departed westbound. My observations of the track condition were made from the back of the Park car during the latter. Your last picture above does a pretty good job of illustrating the situation.

 

[Seaboard92]

It seams to me the problem with VIA is there isn't enough of VIA to make it worthwhile to make these simple investments like the power switch at Moncton. Sure the corridor has multiple frequencies a day but if you don't live between Quebec City and Windsor it seams like the network is doing a very poor job of providing service. Especially out in Western Canada.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

I think instead of going to Campbellton with the RDC service they should instead go down to St. John, NB which would make much more sense........

Yes....Saint John (always spelled out to avoid confusion with St. John's NL) is a logical destination for a VIA 'Intercity' service but for now....all I've ever seen mentioned is Halifax-Moncton-Campbellton.

Covid aside......Maritime Bus provides a connection from the Ocean at Moncton to Saint John where their terminal is the former VIA Station.





The 89 mile route between Moncton and Saint John is on good CN track (the last couple of miles to that former station is on Irving owned New Brunswick Southern***)

Tracks would need upgrading to be time competitive. Driving times between Halifax and Saint John would have you there before a train from Halifax would even reach Moncton!

***New Brunswick Southern is Passenger Friendly!

 

[Seaboard92]

New Brunswick Southern also operates regular excursions actually. I can't figure out how to buy a ticket, but they do run regularly.

 

[jiml]

New Brunswick Southern also operates regular excursions actually. I can't figure out how to buy a ticket, but they do run regularly.

Yes, there are a few reviews and videos out there, but all a couple of years old. We're planning to visit family in NB in November (currently holding a VIA reservation but more likely to drive) and I had hoped to add an excursion to the itinerary. Apparently Fall is the best time.

 

[jiml]

Love the A/C installs on the old VIA coaches and they even managed an engine on either end. (Looking at you VIA Rail.)

 

[siberianmo]

With relatives in Bedford (now Halifax) Nova Scotia, my wife and I made the annual round trip aboard the Ocean from Montreal. Actually, our first visit "home" was aboard the Atlantic . . . Nevertheless, over the decades VIA has undergone so many changes including the inclusion of the Chunnel Chuggers (aka: Renaissance cars). As a staunch supporter of those gleaming corrugated stainless steel beauties of the past - I dearly miss having our bedroom in the Park Car along with all the rest in terms of comfortable socializing spaces, etc.

We also made 2 round trips (Toronto/Vancouver) aboard the Canadian's Park cars - CN route - and can fondly recall the Toronto departures around 9 am. Great move to change that to night time (noooooooot).

For a period of years I also made solo round trips aboard the Chaleur from Montreal to Gaspe - usually in a bedroom as opposed to roomette. Loved that trip in spite of right-of-way issues.

Fast forward to today . . .

Covid may very well be the "reason" some have looked for to pull the spikes from the tracks - so to speak.

Best I can come up with is: I am very grateful to have experienced decades of rail travel aboard VIA Rail equipment with on board Chefs and amenities to make Amtrak passengers jealous. Oh well . . .

 

[Gemuser]

Love the A/C installs on the old VIA coaches and they even managed an engine on either end. (Looking at you VIA Rail.)

And they even have a "SLUG!" on a passenger train!

 

[Exvalley]

The website is still offering rooms in Renaissance sleepers after the first of the year.

 

[jiml]

The website is still offering rooms in Renaissance sleepers after the first of the year.

That's been a "rolling" deadline... was November, then December, now January. As @NS VIA Fan pointed out, they are maintaining reservations for earlier travel (I have one), but it is not looking optimistic. You can also book sleeper accommodation on other LD trains in 2021.

 

[Exvalley]

My point is that they are offering rooms in Renaissance cars. Ergo, they believe that the consist will continue to have Renaissance cars. Or was it just coach class that was the issue?

 

[NS VIA Fan]

My point is that they are offering rooms in Renaissance cars. Ergo, they believe that the consist will continue to have Renaissance cars. Or was it just coach class that was the issue?

See my previous post #64 in this thread:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...led-until-nov-1-2020.77375/page-3#post-850327
And this quote from a VIA Press Release:

”The solution involves using a 'hybrid' train that includes locomotives equipped with features allowing for back-to-back operations, so the trains don't need to turn around”
”Passenger cars used will have seats that can turn to align with the direction of travel to “ensure optimal comfort for passengers”

What is rumored is the Ocean will use the Budd coaches (with reversible seats) along with the Ren Diner/Service Cars and Ren Sleepers as they are bi-directional.

This would be similar to the Hybrid train they were running just before Covid.

VIA's booking engine is also offering a 'Twin Cabin for 2' and a 'Large Cabin for 2' in January and that would indicate a 'Park Car' would be operating.......but that's a long time off and certainly subject to change!

 

[jiml]

My guess is lack of an actual website update. This is the same list of accommodations that has been there for years and they've just been subtracting the ones not available month-by-month. They probably have no idea what will actually be on the train yet.

 

[Willbridge]

VIA's service actually makes a lot of sense when you factor in the political climate of Canada in my opinion. It seams to me as an outsider that Quebec gets what Quebec wants because they know they have the power to sink any policy in any part of the country. Without Quebec's support things don't tend to get funded. Hence the corridor gets better service, and they are trying to do this higher speed line somewhere in that area. While the western provinces don't get service. The corridor has very useful service and CN for the most part manages to keep that part of the network fluid.

When I look at the Canadian rail map I see major potential in the prairies especially Alberta. Calgary-Edmonton makes a lot of sense for a Piedmont style corridor. I could even make an argument for twice daily service, a day train and an overnight train between Winnipeg and Calgary, and Winnipeg and Edmonton. Which is one reason I would want to use the HP2s after the new Siemens sets arrive for.

.................

We had 2x daily - almost - Dayliner service between Edmonton and Calgary on what at one time were the fastest trains in the Commonwealth. In the 1980's first CP and then VIA set their minds to getting rid of them and did all of the classic things to accomplish that goal. In relation to Quebec politics, when cross-examination in the Red Deer hearing started to reveal that a "use it or lose it" ad campaign was being run through a Montreal agency that had not even hired a temp in the West to polish their English, the chairman of the hearing-- a retired Liberal MP -- cut off the line of questioning.

Further, when a set of Bombardier Superliners was successfully tested on the Panorama, we thought that it was good news -- we could get Canadian-built cars with minimal design and test costs and compatibility with Amtrak cars in the West. Then nothing happened and the rumour mill around VIA was that Quebec engineering firms wanted the design work to be done there from scratch. Eventually related to this it turned out in the newspapers that VIA Rail was being used to launder money from the Federal government to use back then to fight Separatisme and later to fund the Liberal party in Quebec.

When the LRC's were ordered, there were public statements that two trainsets would be allocated to the Prairies. Mentioned was the Edmonton - Calgary service or the idea of a daylight train between Edmonton and Winnipeg (today CN wouldn't be able to handle that). We're still waiting.

American Patrick Henry only had one life to give to his country. The Prairie province rail service gave its life for election results.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

My guess is lack of an actual website update. This is the same list of accommodations that has been there for years and they've just been subtracting the ones not available month-by-month. They probably have no idea what will actually be on the train yet.

Yes....probably nothing firm yet for a January booking but the Upper/Lower Berths, Cabins for 1 and Cabins for 2 that would indicate a Budd Sleeper are not shown and they were available just prior to Covid.

And it would make sense that by now they would have an idea of what equipment they plan to be operating in January as booking is usually available a year in advance.

(when you booked for your November trip that VIA is still holding......were you able to book in a Budd?)

 

[jiml]

(when you booked for your November trip that VIA is still holding......were you able to book in a Budd?)

Yes, we like Bedroom A and I've only had one advisory from VIA to date of the possibility of changes - hence my thought that they still don't know. We're not going all the way to Halifax and I'm leaning to cashing in the tickets in favour of driving. If the Maritime "bubble" doesn't open up, it's irrelevant anyway.