Canadian and Ocean cancelled

[jiml]

We had 2x daily - almost - Dayliner service between Edmonton and Calgary on what at one time were the fastest trains in the Commonwealth. In the 1980's first CP and then VIA set their minds to getting rid of them and did all of the classic things to accomplish that goal. In relation to Quebec politics, when cross-examination in the Red Deer hearing started to reveal that a "use it or lose it" ad campaign was being run through a Montreal agency that had not even hired a temp in the West to polish their English, the chairman of the hearing-- a retired Liberal MP -- cut off the line of questioning.

Further, when a set of Bombardier Superliners was successfully tested on the Panorama, we thought that it was good news -- we could get Canadian-built cars with minimal design and test costs and compatibility with Amtrak cars in the West. Then nothing happened and the rumour mill around VIA was that Quebec engineering firms wanted the design work to be done there from scratch. Eventually related to this it turned out in the newspapers that VIA Rail was being used to launder money from the Federal government to use back then to fight Separatisme and later to fund the Liberal party in Quebec.

When the LRC's were ordered, there were public statements that two trainsets would be allocated to the Prairies. Mentioned was the Edmonton - Calgary service or the idea of a daylight train between Edmonton and Winnipeg (today CN wouldn't be able to handle that). We're still waiting.

American Patrick Henry only had one life to give to his country. The Prairie province rail service gave its life for election results.

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You are correct on all your points. I actually thought they had run a test of a short LRC consist in Alberta when they first arrived. The government throwing VIA "bones" to Quebec firms is nothing new - hence the surprise of the recent Siemens contract. We'll see what happens to that with the post-Covid budget. Service cuts and more refurbs wouldn't be a shock.

 

[Mailliw]

Are there any issues with running the Budd Sleepers in bidirectional mode? Nothing can be done about the roomettes, but can't the upper and lower berths just be made up on the other direction?
,

 

[Seaboard92]

Are there any issues with running the Budd Sleepers in bidirectional mode? Nothing can be done about the roomettes, but can't the upper and lower berths just be made up on the other direction?
,

I'm going to use the old railroad terms for the accommodations.

The sections it doesn't matter the orientation, and neither do the doubles because half are forward half are not. It's the roomettes that require running the wye.

 

[west point]

This poster is confused. Why not a loco on each end ? When originiating just back up to the first available wye and then proceed forward. Why jump thru alll these hoops? If 2 locos not needed the one used for backing could wait until the next regular train comes and then is attached. How far is the first available wye ?.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

This poster is confused. Why not a loco on each end ? When originiating just back up to the first available wye and then proceed forward. Why jump thru alll these hoops? If 2 locos not needed the one used for backing could wait until the next regular train comes and then is attached. How far is the first available wye ?.

Two locomotives are needed. VIA has already said the F40s will be running back to back......and they can be run around the train in Halifax. No need for a wye (closest is Truro (64 miles) or even the loop track now that caused all this )

 

[jiml]

Have they done the upgrades to allow the F40's to run at full speed backwards? I asked someone who should know and he didn't. We also discussed using P-42's and he just laughed. (VIA's F40PH-3's will be soldiering on long after their P-42's are sold to Amtrak for parts.)

 

[NS VIA Fan]

..........VIA's F40PH-3's will be soldiering on long after their P-42's are sold to Amtrak for parts.

Yup

When VIA began replacing the MLW FPA-4's on the Atlantic with the new F40s in 1987....the FPA's were nearly 30 years old. Now it's hard to believe those F40's are just as old or older!

The F40's were rebuilt 10 years ago and will be in service for a few years yet but some of those now 60 year old FPA-4's may still get the last laugh as several are still in service on Tourist Trains in the US.

 

[jiml]

Yup

When VIA began replacing the MLW FPA-4's on the Atlantic with the new F40s in 1987....the FPA's were nearly 30 years old. Now it's hard to believe those F40's are just as old or older!

The F40's were rebuilt 10 years ago and will be in service for a few years yet but some of those now 60 year old FPA-4's may still get the last laugh as several are still in service on Tourist Trains in the US.

I've ridden behind them (FPA-4) on the Napa Valley Wine Train. Miss them on the corridor trains. Awesome sound.

Except for their shells, the F40's are relatively "new".

 

[lstone19]

Have they done the upgrades to allow the F40's to run at full speed backwards? I asked someone who should know and he didn't.

All locomotives are capable of running full speed backwards. The traction motors don't care what direction they're going. Locomotives are not like automobiles with multiple forward gears but only a single reverse gear.

The issue, as I understand it, is the HEP wiring. Unlike Amtrak, where only one locomotive can provide HEP and there is a (simplified explanation) single power bus running the length of the train (and hence Amtrak's 18(?) car limit), VIA has their trains designed for two locomotives to provide HEP (hence VIA's longer train lengths) with one powering the left bus and the other powering the right bus (I believe each car is then set to receive power from one bus or the other). My guess is as part of this, the F40s are currently wired to only pass the generated power out the rear (perhaps to prevent inadvertently connecting the two HEP units together which I suspect would cause a fireworks display). Whatever the issue is, the needed modification is to the HEP wiring, not to anything mechanical to let the unit run full speed in reverse.

 

[jiml]

All locomotives are capable of running full speed backwards. The traction motors don't care what direction they're going. Locomotives are not like automobiles with multiple forward gears but only a single reverse gear.

The issue, as I understand it, is the HEP wiring. Unlike Amtrak, where only one locomotive can provide HEP and there is a (simplified explanation) single power bus running the length of the train (and hence Amtrak's 18(?) car limit), VIA has their trains designed for two locomotives to provide HEP (hence VIA's longer train lengths) with one powering the left bus and the other powering the right bus (I believe each car is then set to receive power from one bus or the other). My guess is as part of this, the F40s are currently wired to only pass the generated power out the rear (perhaps to prevent inadvertently connecting the two HEP units together which I suspect would cause a fireworks display). Whatever the issue is, the needed modification is to the HEP wiring, not to anything mechanical to let the unit run full speed in reverse.

That was my understanding as well, but I was corrected in Post #66 earlier in this thread. Apparently the issue is indeed with speed.

 

[west point]

Via HEP is much more sophiscated than just a left bus and right bus. Each car and loco is wired so the left bus "A" enters the car at the left front then exists the car or loco on the right rear ( which is the left front if car rotated.. Car #1 receives power on its bus A" from LOCO #2's right bus by the left rear connection of the loco. . Car #2 car then gets loco #2 power on its right front bus "B" and exits the power on the car's left rear. Then the next car gets loco #2' on its bus "A" And so forth.

Loco #1 's right bus enters loco #2 on the left side and exits loco #2 on the right side. There fore car #1 gets loco's #1 power on car's #1 "B" bus right side and normally passes it thru the left rear of car #1. That way car #2 Bus ""A" is powered by loco #1. Locos are wired the same however each loco's HEP can be assigned bus "A" or bus "B"or both in case just one loco is in consist or just one loco is providing HEP power. Protection circuits prevent a loco from connecting power to an active bus. A single loco can power both buses.

The cars normally use HEP from its bus "A". However each car has tie bus that will connect to bus B" disconecting first from "A" if "B" is powered and no power on bus "A" Each car and loco has a switching circuit so if it is not getting power from its "A" bus a relay will connect car to "B" bus. That way each car of a train normally connects to the A bus unless no power on the "A" bus.. Therefor you can have 2 locos providing HEP to a long train. If Canadian has 2 diners they are usuall set so each diner receives one loco's power.

If one loco in a train goes dead the dead loco can use the HEP from good loco to keep vital electronics and loco cooling from temperature extremes.iit can

Have not determined if Amtrak is now making pprovision for this set up on new orders or if each side of new cars has car 's power connected together ?

 

[lstone19]

That was my understanding as well, but I was corrected in Post #66 earlier in this thread. Apparently the issue is indeed with speed.

Hmmm. Of course, just because one person posted it doesn't make it true. A traction motor and wheels/axles/trucks certainly don't care. And plenty of F40s (Metra in my area) run backwards (pushing) at 79mph (plus Amtrak ran them back-to-back in the past). There are pictures out there of VIA running them back-to-back before the modifications so perhaps there's something aerodynamic or a clearance issue about the modification that causes an problem.

 

[jiml]

Hmmm. Of course, just because one person posted it doesn't make it true. A traction motor and wheels/axles/trucks certainly don't care. And plenty of F40s (Metra in my area) run backwards (pushing) at 79mph (plus Amtrak ran them back-to-back in the past). There are pictures out there of VIA running them back-to-back before the modifications so perhaps there's something aerodynamic or a clearance issue about the modification that causes an problem.

The poster in question is highly respected and always has accurate information.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Hmmm. Of course, just because one person posted it doesn't make it true.........

Info was provided by a VIA Engineer and posted to another rail forum:

The problem stems from the suspension system bearing on the traction motor that relies on a wick type lubricating device. Occurrences increased with reverse running of the F40s in the 1X1 consists and units were being set out with hot bearings while running in reverse. The units are now being equipped with bearings similar to the P42s and can now run in reverse at track speed.

 

[lstone19]

Info was provided by a VIA Engineer and posted to another rail forum:

The problem stems from the suspension system bearing on the traction motor that relies on a wick type lubricating device. Occurrences increased with reverse running of the F40s in the 1X1 consists and units were being set out with hot bearings while running in reverse. The units are now being equipped with bearings similar to the P42s and can now run in reverse at track speed.

This actually boggles my mind since diesel locomotives are designed to run equally well either way and other F40s aren't similarly plagued. Plus until recently, it was standard to run locomotives back-to-back (think of those classic A-B-B-A sets of 50 to 60 years ago; plus Amtrak regularly ran F40s back-to-back when they had them). Which means Via requested something non-standard on their locomotives. But it wouldn't be the first time a business decided they could do it better than what years of experience had taught the industry only to find that industry standards actually had good reasons behind them.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

This actually boggles my mind since diesel locomotives are designed to run equally well either way and other F40s aren't similarly plagued.......

For whatever reason...... VIA recognized they were having problems with their F40's and it is being addressed.

 

[Willbridge]

Via HEP is much more sophiscated than just a left bus and right bus. Each car and loco is wired so the left bus "A" enters the car at the left front then exists the car or loco on the right rear ( which is the left front if car rotated.. Car #1 receives power on its bus A" from LOCO #2's right bus by the left rear connection of the loco. . Car #2 car then gets loco #2 power on its right front bus "B" and exits the power on the car's left rear. Then the next car gets loco #2' on its bus "A" And so forth.

Loco #1 's right bus enters loco #2 on the left side and exits loco #2 on the right side. There fore car #1 gets loco's #1 power on car's #1 "B" bus right side and normally passes it thru the left rear of car #1. That way car #2 Bus ""A" is powered by loco #1. Locos are wired the same however each loco's HEP can be assigned bus "A" or bus "B"or both in case just one loco is in consist or just one loco is providing HEP power. Protection circuits prevent a loco from connecting power to an active bus. A single loco can power both buses.

The cars normally use HEP from its bus "A". However each car has tie bus that will connect to bus B" disconecting first from "A" if "B" is powered and no power on bus "A" Each car and loco has a switching circuit so if it is not getting power from its "A" bus a relay will connect car to "B" bus. That way each car of a train normally connects to the A bus unless no power on the "A" bus.. Therefor you can have 2 locos providing HEP to a long train. If Canadian has 2 diners they are usually set so each diner receives one loco's power.

If one loco in a train goes dead the dead loco can use the HEP from good loco to keep vital electronics and loco cooling from temperature extremes.

Have not determined if Amtrak is now making provision for this set up on new orders or if each side of new cars has car 's power connected together ?

Thanx much for the explanation. My personal experience with this was in the 1950's setting up power blocks on our Lionel layout and having to match AC phases. When there was a big blue flash then I knew I had it wrong. What you described suggests that is still a risk that can be protected against.

 

[jiml]

https://media.viarail.ca/en/press-releases/2020/rail-postpones-service-resumption-canadian-and-ocean

 

[Seaboard92]

https://media.viarail.ca/en/press-r...ces-gradual-service-resumption-western-canada
It has been announced today that the Canadian is partially returning. Effective on December 11th the Canadian will return but only operating Vancouver-Winnipeg.

Here is the schedule that is operating right now.

Eastbound
Friday Train No. 2 departs Vancouver, BC-Ashcroft, BC
Saturday Train No. 2 Departs Kamloops,BC-Viking, AB
Sunday Train No. 2 Departs Wainwright, AB-Winnipeg, MB

Westbound
Monday Train No. 1 departs Winnipeg, MB-Portage La Prairie, MB
Tuesday Train No. 1 departs Rivers, MB-Edmonton, AB
Wednesday Train No. 1 departs Edmonton, AB-Ashcroft, BC
Thursday Train No. 1 departs Boston Bar, BC-Vancouver, BC

It isn't that bad of a schedule using only one set of equipment. Layover on each end is a fairly decent time.

Winnipeg: 23 hours 30 minutes
Vancouver: 31 Hours

So in theory they have a fairly good chance of running it on time.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

You will have to remain in your sleeper but can go to the diner by reservation. Tthere will bo access to the Park Car.

 

[Seaboard92]

You will have to remain in your sleeper but can go to the diner by reservation. Tthere will bo access to the Park Car.

I wonder if that means no skyline cars, or Park car. It would look significantly different. I think I will have to use this stripped down Canadian for a business trip sometime in the spring. Now that I have business in Saskatoon and I believe I can cross the border legally because of it.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I wonder if that means no skyline cars, or Park car. It would look significantly different. I think I will have to use this stripped down Canadian for a business trip sometime in the spring. Now that I have business in Saskatoon and I believe I can cross the border legally because of it.

NS VIA Fan says there will be access to the Park Car, but nothing about Dome Cars.

Wonder if the Ultra Deluxe Service will be run and have their exclusive seats and times in the Park Car?

And if Winter Fares and "Specials" will be offered??

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

NS VIA Fan says there will be access to the Park Car, but nothing about Dome Cars.

Wonder if the Ultra Deluxe Service will be run and have their exclusive seats and times in the Park Car?

And if Winter Fares and "Specials" will be offered??

According to the VIA Facebook page, there will be no access to the Park Car. The post you are referring to appears to be cut off, so it may also have been stating that there is no access rather than that there is.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

VIA has clarified .. there will be NO access to the Park Car and nothing about a Skyline in the consist. The Diner will have limited seating by reservation only.

 

[jiml]

Wonder if the Ultra Deluxe Service will be run and have their exclusive seats and times in the Park Car?

And if Winter Fares and "Specials" will be offered??

To date the Prestige class is only offered during summer months. Currently they are only selling coach seats on the resumed service. One source expects Sleeper Plus class to be restored, however all classes but Economy are currently "zeroed out" (which I can confirm based on several trial dates into January).