Collision Between Two Amtrak Trains in Oakland?

[Henry Kisor]

Dictionary.com's definition of "collide":

1.

to strike one another or one against the other with a forceful impact; come into violent contact; crash: The two cars collided with an ear-splitting crash.

2.

to clash; conflict: Their views on the matter collided.

Seems to be that there is an everyday demotic definition of the word, and a scientific definition that involves two or more moving bodies.

This thread reminds me of my time on the night copy desk, during which we sometimes nearly came to blows over usage. The AP Style Manual didn't always settle the disagreements.

 

[jis]

Dictionary.com's definition of "collide":

1.

to strike one another or one against the other with a forceful impact; come into violent contact; crash: The two cars collided with an ear-splitting crash.

2.

to clash; conflict: Their views on the matter collided.

Seems to be that there is an everyday demotic definition of the word, and a scientific definition that involves two or more moving bodies.

This thread reminds me of my time on the night copy desk, during which we sometimes nearly came to blows over usage. The AP Style Manual didn't always settle the disagreements.

From this thread it would seem like the AP style manual would be a significant source of pointless disagreements. No wonder they can;t get their news stories right. They don't even want to use normal meanings of the words!

 

[jis]

On a more serious note, according to a posting on another board here is what happened (I am paraphrasing below from the original):

1. 717 picked up an additional Engineer for qualification run at Merced. He had prior incident - running a red and almost colliding head-on into a freight) which caused him to require re-qualification.

2. At EMY the experienced engineer dropped back to the cab car leaving the inexperienced Engineer in charge, just so that they could get out of OKJ and get to the yard quickly. That doesn't sound proper does it?

3. At CP King St 717 got a yellow, with the red over red at CP North Jack London, which should be clearly visible from CP King St, unless there was fog. But still yellow means be prepared to stop at the next signal anyway.

4. 717 carried on past the red over red and into the same track as 14, and emergency brakes were applied as it crossed the switch.

5. 717 collided into 14 at 15mph or so, derailing the front axle of both locomotives.

6. Both engineers got off and went over to the cab of 14 to try to get their version of the story agreed upon to tell investigators. Apparently the crew of 14 declined to participate in that conspiracy. The Engineer who was the proximate cause of the crash also took the trouble to talk to the CBS news person and gave his name to the person, a complete no-no according to protocol.

7. A download of CTC confirmed that the signals were displaying as stated in (3) above.

8. It is a truly damning indictment of Amtrak management if the following is true: "When he (the Engineer in the loco) was a student, ever(y) instructor told the company he had no business running a train, and his evaluations even reflected that. The union said the same thing when they hired him to be an engineer."

And yet he was re-qualifying and he was left in the cab alone!!!!

Not a very comforting thought if all that is true. If this is true then no amount of protection and safety protocols can keep the passengers safe. This would fall in the category of crass negligence, and an organizational problem and an apparent culture of reckless disregard of procedures that are in place to ensure safety.

I would hasten to add that only the final investigation report can say definitive things about the incident. However, if the info above is true then I would be very worried about riding a train at least in California. But of course not as much worried as I would be about riding a car in California though :-/

 

[yarrow]

since this accident would have been prevented, i assume, by positive train control what is the status for amtrak as regards pct?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The responsibility is then of the engineer to be able to stop short of any obstruction, and it works fine if rules are followed.

A lot of antiquated safety systems work just fine if we ignore the possibility of human error. A single employee failing to follow protocol should not be enough to cause a train to crash in 2011.

 

[jis]

The responsibility is then of the engineer to be able to stop short of any obstruction, and it works fine if rules are followed.

A lot of antiquated safety systems work just fine if we ignore the possibility of human error. A single employee failing to follow protocol should not be enough to cause a train to crash in 2011.

It is a matter of risk mitigation and what is the expected damage that is going to be prevented by what expected cost. If you are in a freight yard or a relatively low speed line there is no reason to spend the money to prevent an occasional accident caused by someone's inattention. It is better to spend lesser amount of money and train better and keep inappropriate people out of positions of responsibility. OTOH on a higher speed line where damage from single incidents can be rather spectacular, indeed additional layers of safety should be built in.

In case of Jack London Square, there would be very little justification for spending too much more on additional layers of safety. As it is the accident rates and damage from those is exceedingly low already.

At the end of the day nothing can prevent all accidents, so it is a question of what proportion to prevent for what cost.

 

[jis]

since this accident would have been prevented, i assume, by positive train control what is the status for amtrak as regards pct?

Even if PTC was installed, if a genius decided to turn the system off and charge along, well....

Nothing can be made fully secure against human ingenuity or stupidity.

 

[tp49]

6. Both engineers got off and went over to the cab of 14 to try to get their version of the story agreed upon to tell investigators. Apparently the crew of 14 declined to participate in that conspiracy. The Engineer who was the proximate cause of the crash also took the trouble to talk to the CBS news person and gave his name to the person, a complete no-no according to protocol.

I'd be more inclined to say he was the actual cause of the crash at least until the possibility of any system failure is officially ruled out by investigators. If the part about trying to get the attempt to collude with the crew of 14 is true is that an immediately terminable offense and would it cause their license to be revoked or suspended as well?

8. It is a truly damning indictment of Amtrak management if the following is true: "When he (the Engineer in the loco) was a student, ever(y) instructor told the company he had no business running a train, and his evaluations even reflected that. The union said the same thing when they hired him to be an engineer."

And yet he was re-qualifying and he was left in the cab alone!!!!

Not a very comforting thought if all that is true. If this is true then no amount of protection and safety protocols can keep the passengers safe. This would fall in the category of crass negligence, and an organizational problem and an apparent culture of reckless disregard of procedures that are in place to ensure safety.

I would hasten to add that only the final investigation report can say definitive things about the incident. However, if the info above is true then I would be very worried about riding a train at least in California. But of course not as much worried as I would be about riding a car in California though :-/

This right here is very telling and worrisome. Makes me wonder if this engineer slipped through how many others are out there in a similar condition. Sounds like a procedural breakdown here. I'd be interested in seeing the full report of the investigation especially in light of the alleged attempt to "cover up" the incident by the crew of 717.

 

[PRR 60]

On a more serious note, according to a posting on another board here is what happened (I am paraphrasing below from the original):

1. 717 picked up an additional Engineer for qualification run at Merced. He had prior incident - running a red and almost colliding head-on into a freight) which caused him to require re-qualification.

2. At EMY the experienced engineer dropped back to the cab car leaving the inexperienced Engineer in charge, just so that they could get out of OKJ and get to the yard quickly. That doesn't sound proper does it?

3. At CP King St 717 got a yellow, with the red over red at CP North Jack London, which should be clearly visible from CP King St, unless there was fog. But still yellow means be prepared to stop at the next signal anyway.

4. 717 carried on past the red over red and into the same track as 14, and emergency brakes were applied as it crossed the switch.

5. 717 collided into 14 at 15mph or so, derailing the front axle of both locomotives.

6. Both engineers got off and went over to the cab of 14 to try to get their version of the story agreed upon to tell investigators. Apparently the crew of 14 declined to participate in that conspiracy. The Engineer who was the proximate cause of the crash also took the trouble to talk to the CBS news person and gave his name to the person, a complete no-no according to protocol.

7. A download of CTC confirmed that the signals were displaying as stated in (3) above.

8. It is a truly damning indictment of Amtrak management if the following is true: "When he (the Engineer in the loco) was a student, ever(y) instructor told the company he had no business running a train, and his evaluations even reflected that. The union said the same thing when they hired him to be an engineer."

And yet he was re-qualifying and he was left in the cab alone!!!!

Not a very comforting thought if all that is true. If this is true then no amount of protection and safety protocols can keep the passengers safe. This would fall in the category of crass negligence, and an organizational problem and an apparent culture of reckless disregard of procedures that are in place to ensure safety.

I would hasten to add that only the final investigation report can say definitive things about the incident. However, if the info above is true then I would be very worried about riding a train at least in California. But of course not as much worried as I would be about riding a car in California though :-/

Just a couple of comments, also nothing official:

My understanding is that the engineer with the prior "passing red" violation was the primary engineer and was at the controls coming into OKJ. That prior violation was several years ago. The engineer re-qualifying was reportedly coming back from a recent D&A issue. That engineer was in the cab car for the reverse move to the yard.

The question of what the crew from 717 did after the accident may be subject to interpretation. I've also seen the reports that they wanted to "get the stories straight." However, unless that is coming from someone in the cab, that is at best hearsay. It is possible they were checking on the condition of the engineer in the cab of #14. That engineer was injured with a broken arm and back pain. Regardless, I'm not sure what could have been arranged to make things look OK for the crew of #717. #14 was just sitting there and #717 hit them. The signals were what the signals were, and the rules are what the rules are. The engineer in the #717 cab car is probably in the clear. The engineer at the controls of #717 may be looking for a job shortly.

 

[jis]

Just a couple of comments, also nothing official:

My understanding is that the engineer with the prior "passing red" violation was the primary engineer and was at the controls coming into OKJ. That prior violation was several years ago. The engineer re-qualifying was reportedly coming back from a recent D&A issue. That engineer was in the cab car for the reverse move to the yard.

The question of what the crew from 717 did after the accident may be subject to interpretation. I've also seen the reports that they wanted to "get the stories straight." However, unless that is coming from someone in the cab, that is at best hearsay. It is possible they were checking on the condition of the engineer in the cab of #14. That engineer was injured with a broken arm and back pain. Regardless, I'm not sure what could have been arranged to make things look OK for the crew of #717. #14 was just sitting there and #717 hit them. The signals were what the signals were, and the rules are what the rules are. The engineer in the #717 cab car is probably in the clear. The engineer at the controls of #717 may be looking for a job shortly.

Bill, I agree with your assessment, and the correction. It would appear to be a blind leading the deaf kind of situation. Sad....

 

[Trainmans daughter]

What is a "D & A issue"?

 

[Ryan]

I'm going to guess "drugs and alcohol"?

 

[PRR 60]

I'm going to guess "drugs and alcohol"?

Correct. Please note that the D&A report came from postings on another site. Consider it speculation, not fact.

 

[guest]

Was the CS cancelled at this point? What would Amtrak have done with all the passengers going into Oregon and Washington? Put them up at Emervyille/Oakland hotels for the night? Can you imagine already snuggled into your roomette or bedroom, or perhaps in the shower before hitting the sack? How many happy travels did this idiotic engineer affect with his actions? Wonder if they were able to rebook accommodations on the CS the next day? How about the poor folks who were waiting in Sacramento, or transferring from the CZ, for the train that never came, and having to find a place to sleep in Sacramento at 1 a.m.??

And I wonder, just wonder, if one or both of the engineers might have been texting at the time. Not out of the realm of possibility, that's for sure!

 

[anir dendroica]

Was the CS cancelled at this point? What would Amtrak have done with all the passengers going into Oregon and Washington? Put them up at Emervyille/Oakland hotels for the night? Can you imagine already snuggled into your roomette or bedroom, or perhaps in the shower before hitting the sack? How many happy travels did this idiotic engineer affect with his actions? Wonder if they were able to rebook accommodations on the CS the next day? How about the poor folks who were waiting in Sacramento, or transferring from the CZ, for the train that never came, and having to find a place to sleep in Sacramento at 1 a.m.??

And I wonder, just wonder, if one or both of the engineers might have been texting at the time. Not out of the realm of possibility, that's for sure!

The CS was not cancelled. The damaged lead engine was replaced with a UP freight unit and it left OKJ about 10 hours late. It terminated in Portland at around 1 am this morning, with passengers bused to points north. An extra Amtrak engine was brought down from Seattle, and #11 originated in Portland today.

Mark