Comparing a LD Amtrak Coach Fares to Air travel

[DonNewcomb]

Better question: How many vehicles containing gasoline do you want on an airplane also carrying passengers? I've often wondered if military vehicle transportation is done with minimum or drained fuel.

I think it depends on the situation. A vehicle being carried as cargo would be handled differently from one being LAPESed. The closest experience I have to the topic is that I once had to deal with the fact that the Air Force refused to carry a winch as cargo on their plane because it was dirty. (I handled the problem by lowering the shipment's priority so that it would go by ship. [It has been sitting in a warehouse for a month already and I at least got it moving.])

 

[railiner]

Better question: How many vehicles containing gasoline do you want on an airplane also carrying passengers? I've often wondered if military vehicle transportation is done with minimum or drained fuel.

How ‘bout this?

 

[Seaboard92]

Though I am merely a passionate enthusiast of trains, some on the forum seem knowledgeable enough to qualify as experts.

But hey, what do I know.

I work in the industry and sometimes I don't even know what all these experts know sometimes.

 

[NEPATrainTraveler]

I often compare and contrast Amtrak coach vs airline coach (economy class) for my own travel plans and in some cases Amtrak Coach is cheaper and in other cases airline coach is cheaper. I've been looking at traveling to Milwaukee again this October and Amtrak coach and airline coach are roughly neck and neck. Even on days when air fare is lower than Amtrak coach, the baggage fees charged by United and American (my only two options at my local airport) make the plane cost almost as much as Amtrak coach + the Greyhound/Martz bus I need to take to the Amtrak station. Airlines could get me to Milwaukee faster, but it would mean an evening arrival whereas Amtrak will get me there the next day in the afternoon (which means a daylight arrival, which I prefer).

 

[Devil's Advocate]

"Fly-over country" is a name given to middle America by bicoastals looking down en route between the east and west coasts.

Regardless of the origin when I hear this phrase it's almost always from people who live in middle America.

In reality, it's an area that's more inclined to fly to get places than either coast.

How did you come to this conclusion?

 

[jebr]

How did you come to this conclusion?

This honestly confuses me as well. If anything, middle America loves to drive everywhere, in no small part because a car's going to be needed at your destination anyway so might as well just do a 12-hour drive over what's likely two 1.5-2 hour flights with a layover. Compare that to the coasts (particularly the Northeast) where it's at least possible to get around without a car at many destinations, and direct flights are more prevalent - there's going to be a larger market share flying there vs. driving.

 

[MARC Rider]

This honestly confuses me as well. If anything, middle America loves to drive everywhere, in no small part because a car's going to be needed at your destination anyway so might as well just do a 12-hour drive over what's likely two 1.5-2 hour flights with a layover. Compare that to the coasts (particularly the Northeast) where it's at least possible to get around without a car at many destinations, and direct flights are more prevalent - there's going to be a larger market share flying there vs. driving.

I always thought the term "middle America" was more of cultural than a geographical identifier. In other words, there are lots of "middle Americans" who live in the Northeast and in California, Oregon, and Washington, and even on the coast! Also, how does Chicagoland fit into this alleged geographical division of the country? Furthermore, even in the Northeast, the west coast and Chicagoland, there are very few places where you can really get along without driving. When I arrive on the Acela at Boston, the first thing I do (after I settle down in the Club Acela) is call Enterprise Rental Cars and ask them to come by to pick me up. The places I'm going to in Maine or New Hampshire, you need a car, and would definitely be considered "middle America."

 

[Shortline]

Sorry, have to jump in on the vehicle on plane thing- Sorry Don, but the Air Force hasn't done LAPES since the late 80's/Early 90's. Too many crashes. I used to fly with a pilot who survived the bad one at Pope, that was caught on film. He was pretty scarred from the fire. We do still airdrop, but LAPES is something totally different.

We did like to transport vehicles though. On a long flight, much more comfortable laid out in the driver seat, listening to the radio when you could get a signal, than swinging in a hammock over the ramp and door for hours on end!

As I recall, and it's been more than 20 years since I quit flying, so could be wrong, but I think the fuel limit for a regular peace time transport mission was 1/4 tank of fuel. On combat missions, that was out the window, as they needed the gas when we got where we were going. Funny, how many fuel gauges on vehicles were suddenly "inop" when they showed up to get loaded on the plane.......

C-130 E/H Loadmaster, 1992-2000, 517th AS, 37th AS

 

[dlagrua]

In my view transportation is a competitive business. The bottom line is that over the years we've spent probably $30,000-$40,000 on LD sleeper rail travel. This year the prices rose so high that we decided to fly first class air for 1/5 the cost and will take our money elsewhere. Therefore in 2021 our Amtrak purchases will be minimal. Anyone who runs a successful business would consider losing customers important (I do) but in the case of Amtrak and some members here, probably not.

 

[DonNewcomb]

How did you come to this conclusion?

The distances involved and the relative lack of viable alternatives. 50+ trains per day between NYC & Washington. How many train connections between SLC and Las Vegas? Zero. How many flights? At least 9 non-stop and 61 total connections. You have to look at total journeys as a percentage of the population. Yes, people who live outside large urban areas are more likely to drive but you have to account for the fact that the likelihood of taking the train is almost zero when you figure the train/plane ratio.

 

[MARC Rider]

In my view transportation is a competitive business. The bottom line is that over the years we've spent probably $30,000-$40,000 on LD sleeper rail travel. This year the prices rose so high that we decided to fly first class air for 1/5 the cost and will take our money elsewhere. Therefore in 2021 our Amtrak purchases will be minimal. Anyone who runs a successful business would consider losing customers important (I do) but in the case of Amtrak and some members here, probably not.

Amtrak claims that they're filling the sleepers with the product they are now offering at the prices they are now charging. So they lose some customers, but it appears they've also gained customers. I think that's always the case with business enterprises.

But I am of the opinion that once travel demand stabilizes after the Covid business is over (might not happen for a year or 2), Amtrak prices will be coming down.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

“Claims” being the key word. Anecdotally from talking to employees and riders observations the bedrooms are going empty more often than not even with the 3 day a week schedule. Management “claims” need to be taken with a grain of salt and then some.

 

[caravanman]

Ocean liners started to loose business to transatlantic aircraft. They could not compete with the airlines. Would anyone expect to travel by ship for 7 or more days across the Atlantic for a few hundred $, the same price as an airfare?

I feel that train travel and air travel are such different things, that one is making a fundamental error in comparing their fares.

As I asked earlier, what price would folk say is "reasonable " to travel in coach from New York to Flagstaff over 3 days on the trains?

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

$129-199 one way is my opinion. The sleepers are where the money is. So many fixed costs are already there filling or adding coaches is just extra revenue. The fixed costs of the diners are a great example. If traditional dining returns it should be priced so that the New York to Flagstaff coach passenger can have 5 meals or more adding another 50-75 bucks to Amtrak’s kitty on top of their fare.

 

[jebr]

A trip in early August 2021 from Newark NJ to Flagstaff, AZ in airline coach; the price is $275-$375 Round trip. The trip is about 5 1/2 hours. So lets go with the high number of $375.00. For the same exact dates and locations. The lowest R/T Amtrak coach fare that I can find is $560.00

I can find an Amtrak RT for August 2021 for $200 right now. Amtrak's saving the LD trains now! Go Amtrak!

 

[Cal]

I can find an Amtrak RT for August 2021 for $200 right now. Amtrak's saving the LD trains now! Go Amtrak!

Thanks to the discount on coach. )

Round trip for one person on the SWC is 100 dollars for travel between June 2 and November 15th (I think)!

 

[DonNewcomb]

Amtrak claims that they're filling the sleepers with the product they are now offering at the prices they are now charging.

This is a valid point. If you are selling all of something you can make, there's no good reason to lower prices. However, you have to recognize that this puts you into a niche, rather than a commodity, market. You're not actually competing so much as differentiating. Like russet vs purple potatoes. Russet potatoes are a commodity. Purple ones are a niche.

 

[Sidney]

Thanks to the discount on coach. )

Round trip for one person on the SWC is 100 dollars for travel between June 2 and November 15th (I think)!

You have until May 5 to purchase these fares

 

[Cal]

You have until May 5 to purchase these fares

Yep!

 

[MARC Rider]

This is a valid point. If you are selling all of something you can make, there's no good reason to lower prices. However, you have to recognize that this puts you into a niche, rather than a commodity, market. You're not actually competing so much as differentiating. Like russet vs purple potatoes. Russet potatoes are a commodity. Purple ones are a niche.

Long-distance train travel has been a niche market since they rolled out the B 707 and started building the Interstate Highway system.

 

[toddinde]

"Fly-over country" is a name given to middle America by bicoastals looking down en route between the east and west coasts. In reality, it's an area that's more inclined to fly to get places than either coast. My guess is that more people live within 50 miles of an airport with scheduled jet service than live within 50 miles of an Amtrak (or other) train stop. I have to drive 10 miles to catch a jet. The closest Amtrak is 41 miles. I wonder if I could gen up a map showing the relative areas served by airlines vs Amtrak?

The problem is inconvenience, not just distance. My airport is 70 miles away; Amtrak is 30. But you can’t get where you’re going by air without a long flight to a hub, and a backtrack. That’s one of the beefs in Montana. To go between cities there, you have to fly to Salt Lake, Minneapolis, or some other hub. It’s extremely wasteful of time and resources. The train is far more convenient. I flew to Oklahoma awhile ago. By the time you factored in all the time involved, driving was the same amount of time. Same for a simple trip I used to have to make from Indianapolis to Madison. The flight is as long as driving, if you don’t hit traffic which you frequently do. Our aviation and highway centric transportation system is wasteful, expensive and inefficient, and our peer competitor nations are leaving us in the dust.