Condition of Superliners

[2sk21]

Here is an interior photo of our bedroom on the Superliner that we took on the Capitol Limited. I noticed that it has LED lighting and tasteful wood textured paneling. I assumed that this was a newer car than what we had on the Empire Builder but based on AlanB's comments, it appears that this is actually a refurbished car?

 

[AlanB]

Here is an interior photo of our bedroom on the Superliner that we took on the Capitol Limited. I noticed that it has LED lighting and tasteful wood textured paneling. I assumed that this was a newer car than what we had on the Empire Builder but based on AlanB's comments, it appears that this is actually a refurbished car?

That is most certainly a refurbished Superliner car. That most likely means that it is one of the older Superliner I cars, although there are a few newer Superliner II cars that had been wrecked that also got the same treatment.

 

[cirdan]

I remember hearing from Alan in a discussion that even the Superliner I rehabs were somewhat cosmetic in nature. For example, the electrical system and the core plumbing was not touched much. all paneling, upholstery and carpeting was replaced. More recently at least on the equipment that has passed through a stint on the Auto Train, lighting fixtures appear to have been updated to use LED lights, since that is the only way they can get the necessary number of cars in the Auto Train to stay within capacity of the 1Mw HEP system. This change in light fixtures apparently has happened to even some Superliner II stuff.

That is correct Jishnu, On one trip I had an attendant open up the electrical cabinet on the lower level. As someone who's done electrical work, I could easily and immediately tell that the breakers and wires were original. And he mentioned that most other systems had the same issue, what the passenger sees is new, even those LED lights for example. But the wires that they're connected to are original. Most of the rebuilt Superliner I's have those new, more modern and sleek bathrooms that seem to have much more room than the older ones. But the water pipes and the vacuum system & pipes are still original.

It all looks great to the customer/passenger, but the underlying components still fail just like they've been doing for years and that leads to situations like 2sk21, the OP who started this topic, encountered on his run on the Empire Builder. I am however a bit surprised that he found an unrefurbished Superliner on the Empire Builder. Amtrak had been largely using only the best refurbished Superliner I's on the EB.

It seems to me almost penny wise pound foolish to strip out panelling and replace it by new, but not touch the stuff that's underneath. You've done the difficult bit already, so why not rewire the entire car while you're at it.

 

[Bob Dylan]

You'd be correct IF Amtrak had the money to redo the Major Systems on the Cars, but "No Pay, No Play!" is Congresses MO for Amtrak!

 

[Alexandria Nick]

I am going to be in a Superliner Roomette for 2 out of 3 legs of my trip next month and I will spend more time looking at the scenery than I will looking to see what looks worn on the car.

Me too - in the middle of October.

As long as its safe and the toilets work I don't mind if the Superliner car I ride in is a bit worn.

It's pretty easy to spot a Superliner from the 70's batch from a Superliner from the 90s batch by the more wear noticeable in a car from the older batch.

I'm trying to figure out how B-52 bombers and nuclear weapons factor in a discussion about the "Condition of Superliners" relative to the miserly allocation of funds Congress votes to give Amtrak. :huh:

They're related because its a very good example of things being a matter of condition, not age. The last production B-52 came off the line in 1962. They've been conducting studies, on and off, about re-engining the aircraft to switch from 8 engines to 4, because they are so old that engine efficiency has changed that much. The planes are so old that the first re-engining study happened before the Superliners were built (at that point, the earlier variants were already old enough to drink). They work because they were well made aircraft and they've been properly maintained, although I'd imagine a lot of the crews complain about the exact same things that people complain about the age of the Superliners (toilet broke in flight, the overhead rattles, etc.). But they work very well and its cheaper and easier to just maintain them than buy more B-1Bs or B-2s when those came along to replace the B-52.

 

[jis]

It seems to me almost penny wise pound foolish to strip out panelling and replace it by new, but not touch the stuff that's underneath. You've done the difficult bit already, so why not rewire the entire car while you're at it.

It is actually a very very long way from just stripping paneling and replacing to stripping the interior enough to be able to replace the wiring and plumbing. It is nothing like the impression that you are giving. Stripping the paneling is the easy part. Not the hard part.

 

[Dave Van]

On the SWC #3 right now just West of La Junta. My roomette is neat and clean.....about like I have found it each trip in the past. I and a few other did note seems there is more 'rattling' in the rooms......rougher track.....older ears....or in need of a rebuild. At any rate about the level I have come to know.

 

[cirdan]

It seems to me almost penny wise pound foolish to strip out panelling and replace it by new, but not touch the stuff that's underneath. You've done the difficult bit already, so why not rewire the entire car while you're at it.

It is actually a very very long way from just stripping paneling and replacing to stripping the interior enough to be able to replace the wiring and plumbing. It is nothing like the impression that you are giving. Stripping the paneling is the easy part. Not the hard part.

I don't know how the superliners are under the panelling but in my time I've renovated several old houses and also worked on restoring and maintaining old railcars at my local museum.

Compared to carpentry, wiring is easy peasy. If you want to replace a panel, you measure, you look for a piece of the right material, you carefully mark it, cut it, and then pray that it will fit. If you made a mistake you start over. You're lugging heavy panels and squatting in awkward positions and sweating expletives with every breath. Sometimes its hot as a sauna and sometimes its cold as in the arctic and you'll encounter all sorts of filth and dead rodents. You're bruising youir thumbs and scraping your skin and ... you get the picture. Even two cars of the suuposed same type will have minute differences in the dimensions or some undocumented mods so just because you've done one before doesn't mean you can just repeat what you've learnt. You get the picture.

When you're wiring you take a roll of wire and you unravel it until you reach the point you need to reach and then fix it with conduit or tie wraps or whatever. That's way easier. In fact the difficult part about doing the electrics is all the carpentry you need to do to actually get at the stuff. So if you're doing that anyway ...

 

[Karl1459]

At some point Amtrak intends or intended to remanufacture the Superliner-1 with a modular design. http://www.railplan.com/amtrak-superliner-i-remanufacture.html. Or are they doing this now?

If IRRC the N-S bilevel specifications called for a modular long distance options for coach, sleeper and possibly lounge and diner. Thankfully the states are taking the lead on those so the delays and teething problems should not end up as egg on Amtrak's face. When Amtrak can get Congress to cough up money for more bi-level cars they should be able to purchase a well proven chassis.

The B-52 does provide a good analogy in some respects. I had an uncle (now deceased) who was a senior project engineer at Boeing, he oversaw several retrofit projects on B-52's, and commented once that the plane could not be built today (that was 20 years ago) as much of the technology used no longer exists and would have to be re-created (early transistor based electronics and manual airframe construction techniques). Rarely do we hear complaints of electrical wiring problems with the original SL-1's. That may be a robust enough installation that the cardinal rule of "Don't fix it if it ain't BROKE" applies.

While finger pointing to the causes might be tasteless and futile (imho team effort), "work ethic" or at a minimum work skills availability have been issues with the CAF project. There is a parallel as Amtrak national passenger rail suffers as an unwanted stepchild in our confused or absent national transportation policy, and work skills are poorly addressed in our national education policy.

 

[PVD]

Many of the SL1 have the updated interiors, and most people seem to like them. As others have pointed out though, it is not a total overhaul, quite a bit of the unseen original guts remain. I do have to disagree with the comparison of carpentry and electrical as to the complexity and difficulty in a rail car application. There are many systems outside of light and power that need to be integrated both within a room, and across a car. In a residential setting, there may be some truth to the relative difficulty between the crafts, but in a commercial, industrial, or transportation setting I can not agree.

 

[jis]

At some point Amtrak intends or intended to remanufacture the Superliner-1 with a modular design. http://www.railplan.com/amtrak-superliner-i-remanufacture.html. Or are they doing this now?

There is nothing novel about that. These days all passenger cars are built using a modular design. Modular design does not mean that entire modules must be assembled outside the car and then hauled into the car through a big hole. Modules can be assembled inside the car from a knocked down kit too, and still be of modular design.

If IRRC the N-S bilevel specifications called for a modular long distance options for coach, sleeper and possibly lounge and diner. Thankfully the states are taking the lead on those so the delays and teething problems should not end up as egg on Amtrak's face. When Amtrak can get Congress to cough up money for more bi-level cars they should be able to purchase a well proven chassis.

No reason that it would not be since that is the industry norm these days.

 

[PVD]

Less big openings makes for somewhat better design, anyway. I believe what you said about "kits" is pretty much what was done in the SL! update, and it seemed to do well.

 

[zephyr17]

There is nothing novel about that. These days all passenger cars are built using a modular design. Modular design does not mean that entire modules must be assembled outside the car and then hauled into the car through a big hole. Modules can be assembled inside the car from a knocked down kit too, and still be of modular design.

Do they get them from IKEA?

 

[jis]

There is nothing novel about that. These days all passenger cars are built using a modular design. Modular design does not mean that entire modules must be assembled outside the car and then hauled into the car through a big hole. Modules can be assembled inside the car from a knocked down kit too, and still be of modular design.

Do they get them from IKEA?

Rail Plan International, the IKEA of passenger accommodation modules in passenger cars

 

[neroden]

The Viewliners have a remarkably clean and modular design.

Hopefully the new bilevels will too. The Superliner IIs are better than the Is on many points, the California Cars are an improvement over the original Superliners, and the Surfliners are an improvement over the California Cars. We haven't had a new sleeper or diner or cafe design in a long time, but the bilevel coaches and cab cars have been improving with each iteration, and so hopefully the same will happen with sleepers and diners and cafe/obs cars if Amtrak ever gets a chance to replace them.

 

[FormerOBS]

Superliners. Ahh, yes! Lots of ideas here. First of all I believe Superliners are among the very best railroad passenger cars ever built. My reason for saying this is that I have seen quite a few wrecked passenger cars in person and in photos. In the case of older, lighter cars, the damage is invariably greater and, most importantly, the damage to the passenger-carrying portion of the car is much greater. The end/corner construction seems to be the weak point of most passenger cars, but these areas are incredibly strong on a Superliner. During my Amtrak career, I always said that if I'm ever in a wreck, I want to be in a Superliner. I was lucky. It never happened.

The Superliner II's, in which I worked, were built around 1994-95, if memory serves me right. That means they were 20 years old when I retired. Twenty two years now. And the Superliner I's are much older. As many folks have suggested, old equipment can be very serviceable, but it has to be constantly maintained. This is true whether it's an 1880's Jackson & Sharpe wooden coach, a WWII Corsair, a Berkshire steam locomotive, a Model T, a B-52, or a Superliner. As a number of people have said, it's largely a matter of money.

But it's more than that. Over the years, I got a reputation as a pain in the ---- uhhhh ---- neck for reporting defects to the Sanford Mechanical staff. They often disliked it when I reported something minor, but many of them begrudgingly realized that I just wanted my car to be as good as they could make it. They thought I complained too much, but I don't know how many of them realized that I was actually expressing confidence that they COULD do a great job. Considering all the b****ing I did over the years, they might be surprised to know that I strongly believe the Auto Train Mechanical Dept. at Sanford and Lorton are the best Amtrak has.

Early in my Amtrak career, I worked on the extra board on just about every train out of WAS. Sunnyside (NY) had a particularly bad reputation. You could report a defect on a car arriving Sunnyside. Then the next time you saw that car you would see that the repair had never been made. So you would look on the Mechanical record (Amtrak Form MAP-21A) and see a note "Repaired --- Gomez". I eventually learned that there was nobody at Sunnyside named Gomez. Of course these were not Superliners, but the point is the competence of the workers and the people who supervise them. I saw similar evidence of poor performance at Chicago. I am sure there are good folks working at those locations, but the best of them can't always overcome the deficiencies of the worst.

Overall, I am convinced the Sanford and Lorton Mechanical Departments were the very best during my years with the Company. Lorton has fewer resources and a smaller maintenance facility, but those guys could work wonders with that aging equipment. By the way, I understand the Auto Train folks did most or all of the LED installations on the Auto Train equipment --- not Beech Grove.

One serious problem faced by the Sanford and Lorton staff was always a lack of parts. Sometimes (I have been told) they couldn't get parts from the supplier because the supplier refused to ship until they were paid for previous bills, often dating back a long time. Can you blame the Mechanic for the paper-pusher's failings? Sometimes the replacement part wasn't available because it hadn't been in production for a long time. That's what happens when you are operating 20 year old equipment. This was further complicated by official policies that prohibited the removal of components from an out of service car for use on another car.

I know that this has been a rambling account, and I apologize for that. Until the Superliners are refurbished or replaced, remember that socks do work to stifle rattling doors, but towels are bigger and better, and can be obtained from your SCA for the asking. Towels are also great for blocking that excessive air flow from the overhead vent.

Be safe & enjoy the ride, everybody!

Tom

 

[Bob Dylan]

Good post Tom! Ditto!( and I'm a big Budd Fan!)

 

[rrdude]

Contact your Congress Critters and complain to them about the condition of Amtrak's older Superliner cars, now close to being 40 years old.

Traveling on a long distance Amtrak train would be more pleasant if Congress didn't force Amtrak to penny pinch by only providing Amtrak a minimal allocation of funds.

The Superliner cars were built in 2 batches. The first in the late 1970s and the second some 20 years later in the mid-1990s.

age is not an issue for me.... frankly, I sleep pretty well at night knowing that America

is still protected by 60-year-old B-52 bombers carrying nuclear weapons. or that most

of America's nuclear missiles are still controlled from computers that use 5.25 floppy

disks. (same as what my Apple II computer used?)

it's just a matter of money. I'm pretty sure if Amtrak had money(contradiction in terms?),

they would fix up the trains regularly.

The VIA canadian has a consist made almost entirely of cars from 1955-56, but they are in near mint condition, but they have been very well maintained

And they ONLY run 2-3 X per week, BIG DIFFERENCE

 

[rrdude]

Superliners. Ahh, yes! Lots of ideas here. First of all I believe Superliners are among the very best railroad passenger cars ever built. My reason for saying this is that I have seen quite a few wrecked passenger cars in person and in photos. In the case of older, lighter cars, the damage is invariably greater and, most importantly, the damage to the passenger-carrying portion of the car is much greater. The end/corner construction seems to be the weak point of most passenger cars, but these areas are incredibly strong on a Superliner. During my Amtrak career, I always said that if I'm ever in a wreck, I want to be in a Superliner. I was lucky. It never happened.

The Superliner II's, in which I worked, were built around 1994-95, if memory serves me right. That means they were 20 years old when I retired. Twenty two years now. And the Superliner I's are much older. As many folks have suggested, old equipment can be very serviceable, but it has to be constantly maintained. This is true whether it's an 1880's Jackson & Sharpe wooden coach, a WWII Corsair, a Berkshire steam locomotive, a Model T, a B-52, or a Superliner. As a number of people have said, it's largely a matter of money.

But it's more than that. Over the years, I got a reputation as a pain in the ---- uhhhh ---- neck for reporting defects to the Sanford Mechanical staff. They often disliked it when I reported something minor, but many of them begrudgingly realized that I just wanted my car to be as good as they could make it. They thought I complained too much, but I don't know how many of them realized that I was actually expressing confidence that they COULD do a great job. Considering all the b****ing I did over the years, they might be surprised to know that I strongly believe the Auto Train Mechanical Dept. at Sanford and Lorton are the best Amtrak has.

Early in my Amtrak career, I worked on the extra board on just about every train out of WAS. Sunnyside (NY) had a particularly bad reputation. You could report a defect on a car arriving Sunnyside. Then the next time you saw that car you would see that the repair had never been made. So you would look on the Mechanical record (Amtrak Form MAP-21A) and see a note "Repaired --- Gomez". I eventually learned that there was nobody at Sunnyside named Gomez. Of course these were not Superliners, but the point is the competence of the workers and the people who supervise them. I saw similar evidence of poor performance at Chicago. I am sure there are good folks working at those locations, but the best of them can't always overcome the deficiencies of the worst.

Overall, I am convinced the Sanford and Lorton Mechanical Departments were the very best during my years with the Company. Lorton has fewer resources and a smaller maintenance facility, but those guys could work wonders with that aging equipment. By the way, I understand the Auto Train folks did most or all of the LED installations on the Auto Train equipment --- not Beech Grove.

One serious problem faced by the Sanford and Lorton staff was always a lack of parts. Sometimes (I have been told) they couldn't get parts from the supplier because the supplier refused to ship until they were paid for previous bills, often dating back a long time. Can you blame the Mechanic for the paper-pusher's failings? Sometimes the replacement part wasn't available because it hadn't been in production for a long time. That's what happens when you are operating 20 year old equipment. This was further complicated by official policies that prohibited the removal of components from an out of service car for use on another car.

I know that this has been a rambling account, and I apologize for that. Until the Superliners are refurbished or replaced, remember that socks do work to stifle rattling doors, but towels are bigger and better, and can be obtained from your SCA for the asking. Towels are also great for blocking that excessive air flow from the overhead vent.

Be safe & enjoy the ride, everybody!

Tom

Best post I've read on AU in a long, long, time. I concur on Sunnyside and Chicago repairs, or Lack Of. I too was often bitched at for writing up EVERYTHING that didn't work, I wrote books!

 

[FormerOBS]

Good post Tom! Ditto!( and I'm a big Budd Fan!)

Yes, I would rate Budds second to the Superliners, or possibly on a par with them. That's why I said the Superliners are "AMONG the very best...."

Pullman Standard cars used a lower grade of steel in many areas and were more prone to rust and corrosion that the Budds, which were essentially all stainless.

Tom

 

[railiner]

Good post Tom! Ditto!( and I'm a big Budd Fan!)

Yes, I would rate Budds second to the Superliners, or possibly on a par with them. That's why I said the Superliners are "AMONG the very best...."

Pullman Standard cars used a lower grade of steel in many areas and were more prone to rust and corrosion that the Budds, which were essentially all stainless.

Tom

Weren't the Superliner's derived from the design of the Budd "Hi-Level's"?

Didn't Pullman-Standard have to obtain license from Budd for using some of their design?

I just bring that up to give The Budd Company their due in the credit for the Superliner's...

 

[FormerOBS]

Yes, I think Budd's design was used as a basis for the Superliner cars, at least partly. I have no experience with the old Hi-Levels, so I can't judge those cars. When I referred to Budd cars, I was thinking about Heritage single-level cars, which were far more numerous and with which I have a fair amount of experience. I suspect that's what Bob Dylan was thinking about too, although I can't speak for him.

Tom

 

[jis]

Actually Superliners are quite different from the Santa Fe Hi-Levels. For one thing they are significantly taller with a somewhat higher upper floor. The design was a joint Amtrak Pullman project. While it was certainly inspired by the Hi-Levels, I doubt there is a huge amount of design commonality.