Could this be Amtrak's final decision on the Sunset?

[NativeSon5859]

This poster was in one of the sleeping cars on train #5 two weeks ago. Notice on the bottom of the poster "Orlando" has been changed to "New Orleans".

 

[Penn Central]

Well, from Amtrak's point of veiw, less money used on the Sunset means more money to spend on the Empire Builder, Auto Train, and Acela. So from that point of view, I would say yes, the Sunset Limited is unlikely to ever reach Orlando again in the near future. I can't help but think what Robert Young said 50 years ago in an advertising campaign: "A hog can cross the country without changing trains, but YOU can't."

 

[Guest_gp35_*]

The Sunset tardyness sometimes forced the cancelation of the Sunset section east of NOL. The section east of NOL sometimes cause the Sunset out of NOL going west to start several hours late. I'm betting Amtrak will bring back the Gulf Breeze. This way neither section makes each other late. Ofcourse this won't happen with lack of state involvement in funding and equipment shortage.

Just out of curiousity and arguement sake. Let say Amtrak has the money and equipment to make Sunset daily and east of NOL. Scenario, an east bound train is running 8 hours late for an ETA arrival in NOL. Could Amtrak have an extra train set on stand-by to start the Sunset east of NOL on time. The passengers going east of NOL on the late Sunset would get a hotel voucher for the next day Sunset or bused east of NOL. The late Sunset terminate in NOL and become the new stand-by train.

 

[Penn Central]

Just out of curiousity and arguement sake. Let say Amtrak has the money and equipment to make Sunset daily and east of NOL. Scenario, an east bound train is running 8 hours late for an ETA arrival in NOL. Could Amtrak have an extra train set on stand-by to start the Sunset east of NOL on time. The passengers going east of NOL on the late Sunset would get a hotel voucher for the next day Sunset or bused east of NOL. The late Sunset terminate in NOL and become the new stand-by train.

Well, since you mention that in this secenario, Amtrak has enough equipment to make this work, ao Amtrak would probably keep enough equipment in NOL in case this happens (which would probably be nearly every day). But like you were saying: Wouldn't just it be easier to split the Sunset at NOL? Especially since they theoretically have enough equipment?

 

[blueman271]

If Amtrak were to cancel service east of NOL, wouldn't they be forced by law to run some type of service for 180 days? I was under the impression that no train service can be cancelled without a 180 day notice. And since the Sunset is officially suspended east of NOL it seems to me that Amtrak would have to resume service of some kind (train or bus) just to cancel service.

 

[Sam Damon]

IMO, the 180-day rule is why Amtrak keeps tapdancing on the subject.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Why do they have to do anything? Since they are still claiming the spurious and ridiculous "the stations need rebuilding" excuse as supposedly letting them off the hook from having to run the train, right now they've got what they want - since they didn't officially cancel Sunset east of NOL, they can still restart it if they want (they don't give up the right to run trains on it, which they very well might if they officially cancel and then try to come back later and re-institute it), and they can still hold Sunset for ransom to see if they can extort money from LA, MS, AL and FL in order to restart it. They obviously don't give a rat's derriere what anybody else thinks or wants.

 

[NativeSon5859]

I just think it's ridiculous in the sense that it has been nearly two years since the train has been cancelled, and we haven't heard much of anything from Amtrak. It's always "we're not sure what to do". If they want to cancel it, fine. Just say so. Don't keep the public in limbo. Although according to the poster I posted, maybe they have quietly made up their minds without saying too much about it.

The NOL to JAX portion specifically, for a mid range segment, does hit some decent sized population centers along the way. Amtrak is especially missing the boat on servicing the once again booming Mississippi Gulf Coast region, which is seeing dozens of new casino resort developments going up. And Mobile is seeing steady growth, as in Pensacola. And of course there's Florida's state capital.

They could easily use the six car City of NO consist to effectively serve the route. Have it leave NOL at a reasonable time, say 6:00pm. It could get connections from the Sunset (if running close to on time). That way, it would hit GPT/Biloxi around 8:00pm, MOB around 10:00pm, and PNS around 11:30pm...much better times than the typical Sunset middle of the night arrival times thanks to its lateness. On the way back, make it a 10:00am arrival into NOL, pretty close to what they had before. The train could be an hour and a forty five minutes late and connections to the Westbound Sunset would still be made.

I'm just typing out loud here...pardon the ranting.

 

[jefffromark]

Amtrak should operate a separate train,, connecting to/from the Sunset and operate all the way to Miami. At this time there is very limited ground transportation between these city pairs...Greyhound operates one bus a day and you have to change buses twice just to get to Jax..

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Or if they can't run all the way to MIA, run to JAX. That way, depending on the schedule, you would connect to both the Star and the Meteor, to get to/from anywhere Amtrak goes in Florida, plus up to SAV, CHS, etc. And the Southern Transcon Route would again be in business. And if you make it daily, the CONL could have a daily connect from MIA-Chicago. The CRUCIAL thing is to get NOL and JAX connected. Then the whole route system is intact again.

But it ain't gonna happen as long as Amtrak HQ thinks it can successfully hold the route hostage for ransom and extort money from LA, MS, AL, and FL in order to get it running again. I won't say exactly where I think those folks at HQ have their heads installed, but I strongly suspect they get a headache and a sore neck when they sit down.

 

[frj1983]

I have the feeling there is one group of people that are happy it has not come back:

can anybody spell CSX?

 

[Guest_gp35_*]

This is not CSX fault. Amtrak lacks the funds and equipment to bring it back to cancel or bring it back to stay. Everytime I talk to my source at Amtrak, money and equipment is always mentioned.

 

[AlanB]

This is not CSX fault. Amtrak lacks the funds and equipment to bring it back to cancel or bring it back to stay. Everytime I talk to my source at Amtrak, money and equipment is always mentioned.

No one is blaming CSX, they were simply saying that CSX is probably quite happy that the train hasn't been returned. But it is definately not CSX's fault that the Sunset hasn't been restored. They gave Amtrak the ok to restore service just about 6 months after Katrina hit the Gulf Coast.

As for Amtrak, it's not lack of money or equipment that is preventing the restoration of service. In fact it is probably costing Amtrak more money not to restore service.

 

[Superliner Diner]

Well about that poster, I've seen vintage posters out there along the system, advertising trains that no longer exist or have different city pairs than they used to. The Sunset once did officially have New Orleans as its eastern terminus. As far as I can tell, I don't think this poster was doctored up from saying Los Angeles-Orlando to Los Angeles-New Orleans. For all we know it may have been traveling around throughout the system since the old days.

I remember when the Pennsylvanian became a Philly-Chicago train, there were still posters (and merchandise being sold) showing the Pennsylvanian as a New York-Pittsburgh train. Ironically it has returned to its former self just like the Sunset Limited has, at least for now.

 

[Guest_gp35_*]

Something else that I am hearing and finding surprising. The freight railroads are not as hostile to Amtrak

as many hear believes. I was rather shocked to hear,well I can't say, but it's concerning a major freight railroad is being very receptive of a new Amtrak route on their line. BNSF building/repairing rail passenger stations for Amtrak. UP wanting a daily Sunset.

Alan, I was told by a top person at Amtrak that it cost more to run the Sunset tri-weekly than if they ran it daily. Ofcourse I replied, run it daily. Then I heard that word again, "equipment".

 

[Superliner Diner]

Something else that I am hearing and finding surprising. The freight railroads are not as hostile to Amtrakas many hear believes. I was rather shocked to hear,well I can't say, but it's concerning a major freight railroad is being very receptive of a new Amtrak route on their line. BNSF building/repairing rail passenger stations for Amtrak. UP wanting a daily Sunset.

Alan, I was told by a top person at Amtrak that it cost more to run the Sunset tri-weekly than if they ran it daily. Ofcourse I replied, run it daily. Then I heard that word again, "equipment".

Well how have they been doing in Beech Grove repairing wreck-damaged equipment? One would think that by now, assuming the process is continuing, that there would be enough equipment to slowly increase the number of days per week the Sunset runs (incrementally, until the number is at 7), and possibly re-equip the Cardinal with Superliners and do the same thing slowly increasing the number of trips a week until it is daily. (Losing the convenience of directly serving Baltimore, Philly, and New York is a price to pay, but the scenery along this route warrants Superliners including a Sightseer Lounge.)

 

[gswager]

They should re-design the poster because oranges mean Florida.

 

[AlanB]

Something else that I am hearing and finding surprising. The freight railroads are not as hostile to Amtrakas many hear believes. I was rather shocked to hear,well I can't say, but it's concerning a major freight railroad is being very receptive of a new Amtrak route on their line. BNSF building/repairing rail passenger stations for Amtrak. UP wanting a daily Sunset.

Well BNSF has never appeared to be hostile to Amtrak. They have one of the best on-time records for hosting Amtrak of the major RR's. And it's my understanding that BNSF actually has a dispatch desk in the main dispatch center, that is manned 24/7 by an BNSF employee. His/her job is to monitor all Amtrak trains running at any given moment on BNSF tracks, and to make decisions as needed to keep those Amtrak trains rolling on time or as close to on time as possible. I believe that that "Amtrak" dispatcher even has the authority to over rule a local territory dispatcher, if he/she sees that an Amtrak train is about to be sidelined for a freight, especially without good reason.

I know that in my case last June on the Chief, somebody at BNSF was certainly doing a good job. BNSF derailed a freight train ahead of us on their transcon west of ABQ. The derailment took out all tracks on a line that sees 100+ trains every day. Amtrak bussed us around the derailment site from ABQ to Gallup, swapping 3's pax for 4's pax to keep us moving. We could see the derailment from the highway as we went by, double stacks that were now quad stacks and not in a good way.

There were freight trains backed up for miles, since the derailment had happened almost 24 hours before we got to ABQ. Thanks to BNSF dispatching, the padding into LA, we were only about 1 hour late in arriving. And that's despite being over 3 hours late out of Gallup IIRC.

So BNSF get's straight A's in my book!

I'm a bit surprised to hear about UP, but then having the Sunset running daily does make dispatching a bit easier. Having to remember if it's the correct day of the week to see the Sunset coming onto your screen is a bit of a pain.

Alan, I was told by a top person at Amtrak that it cost more to run the Sunset tri-weekly than if they ran it daily. Ofcourse I replied, run it daily. Then I heard that word again, "equipment".

Yes, that I would agree with. The same is true of the Cardinal. The 3-day a week scenario costs far more than running 7 days, and it hurts business big time.

And yes, 7 days a week for the Sunset, especially if OTP doesn't improve, is probably beyond available rolling stock for Amtrak.

But not running it at all is hurting Amtrak big time. They are still paying certain expenses for the portion of the route not running, expenses for the part that is still running, yet ridership has dropped dramatically since Katrina. So there is much less money coming in to pay the bills than there was before.

 

[Superliner Diner]

They should re-design the poster because oranges mean Florida.

True but if you "Google" the terms "orange groves" and "California" you get 138,000 hits. So having oranges in the picture is still valid as Southern California grows plenty of oranges.

 

[gswager]

They should re-design the poster because oranges mean Florida.

True but if you "Google" the terms "orange groves" and "California" you get 138,000 hits. So having oranges in the picture is still valid as Southern California grows plenty of oranges.

That's true. Oranges were well known in CA decades ago until the population explosion stripped the orange groves off the CA map. Trust me, I've witnessed those, esp. in Redlands area. Orange groves are now found in the desert which hasn't still well known, using water from Colorado River.

 

[Guest_gp35_*]

Something else that I am hearing and finding surprising. The freight railroads are not as hostile to Amtrak

as many hear believes. I was rather shocked to hear,well I can't say, but it's concerning a major freight railroad is being very receptive of a new Amtrak route on their line. BNSF building/repairing rail passenger stations for Amtrak. UP wanting a daily Sunset.

Alan, I was told by a top person at Amtrak that it cost more to run the Sunset tri-weekly than if they ran it daily. Ofcourse I replied, run it daily. Then I heard that word again, "equipment".

Well how have they been doing in Beech Grove repairing wreck-damaged equipment? One would think that by now, assuming the process is continuing, that there would be enough equipment to slowly increase the number of days per week the Sunset runs (incrementally, until the number is at 7), and possibly re-equip the Cardinal with Superliners and do the same thing slowly increasing the number of trips a week until it is daily. (Losing the convenience of directly serving Baltimore, Philly, and New York is a price to pay, but the scenery along this route warrants Superliners including a Sightseer Lounge.)

I was told, back in Decv. 06, a daily Cardinal and Sunset was the highest priority pending equipment.

A 4th Sunset, pending equipment. Neither has happened.

Maybe a new time leaving LA to avoid the commuter traffic.

Maybe a new route around the commuter traffic.

Maybe reroute Sunset to DFW.

So much more is on the table, but no solid plans yet.

 

[AlanB]

Something else that I am hearing and finding surprising. The freight railroads are not as hostile to Amtrak

as many hear believes. I was rather shocked to hear,well I can't say, but it's concerning a major freight railroad is being very receptive of a new Amtrak route on their line. BNSF building/repairing rail passenger stations for Amtrak. UP wanting a daily Sunset.

Alan, I was told by a top person at Amtrak that it cost more to run the Sunset tri-weekly than if they ran it daily. Ofcourse I replied, run it daily. Then I heard that word again, "equipment".

Well how have they been doing in Beech Grove repairing wreck-damaged equipment? One would think that by now, assuming the process is continuing, that there would be enough equipment to slowly increase the number of days per week the Sunset runs (incrementally, until the number is at 7), and possibly re-equip the Cardinal with Superliners and do the same thing slowly increasing the number of trips a week until it is daily. (Losing the convenience of directly serving Baltimore, Philly, and New York is a price to pay, but the scenery along this route warrants Superliners including a Sightseer Lounge.)

As of 3/15/07 the latest update available to the public at least, of the original 479 Superliner cars built there are 62 Superliners out of service. Of that number, 22 are confirmed scrapped, leaving 40 sitting at Beech Grove. Of that 40 it is unknown how many are actually salvageable vs. how many could possibly be restored and returned to service. An optimistic guesstimate suggests that 30 might be able to be returned to service, but that number is probably high.

A quick recap of what's out of service follows:

11 coaches scrapped, 17 listed as wrecked.

8 sleeper scrapped, 7 wrecked.

2 diners scrapped, 5 wrecked.

1 dorm scrapped, 6 wrecked.

5 lounges wrecked, none scrapped.

Again, wrecked could mean that the car is repairable or it could just be getting used for parts, or awaiting insurance settlements before being scrapped.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Congress ought to require that insurance settlements on rolling stock MUST be used for repair or replacement of rolling stock, not ballast replacement on the NEC or executive payroll.

 

[sechs]

Congress ought to properly fund Amtrak, as well, but.....

 

[Anthony]

Those 'vintage posters' are new productions... they aren't a holdout from the 1970s or anything