Discussion of expansion of service in Western States

[Northwestern]

A couple of interesting maps and discussion:

https://is.gd/iRAwUk
Although just a pipe dream, it seems, I found the 2nd map ("geographic coverage") intriguing.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

It's interesting that they don't show E-W through Wyoming, only N-S.

 

[jis]

It's interesting that they don't show E-W through Wyoming, only N-S.

There is an overall explanation of how that conceptual map was constructed by the FRA in the document from which this diagram has been pulled out without the accompanying explanation in tow. Digging up the original FRA document and reading it will adequately clarify why there is only N-S across Wyoming and not E-W.

Incidentally the Stampede Pass route was actually used by Amtrak's Empire Builder. The North Coast Hiawatha used the Stevens Pass route - the one currently used by the Empire Builder Seattle section.

 

[Ziv]

A couple of interesting maps and discussion:

https://is.gd/iRAwUk
Although just a pipe dream, it seems, I found the 2nd map ("geographic coverage") intriguing.

Interesting. Being a Montanan, again, I notice the bifurcation of the potential/planned Hiawatha route, i.e. from Fargo, through Miles City, Billings, then either Helena or Butte and finally up to Sandpoint. Butte has always been larger population-wise than Helena, and Helena, though smaller, is the capital. So the argument could go either way. But this year is the year Helena probably exceeded Butte in population (35k each) and that does not even include East Helena's 2k. Butte's population peaked a second time in 1980 at 37k and has been stable around 35k for years. Helena's population was around 23k in 1980 and steadily rising ever since so this switch in who has the population lead will probably be a permanent one.
You might notice that distances are greater in Montana, but population figures tend be missing a few zeroes on the end. LOL!
As of early this year, though, the top 10 towns in MT are largely nearer the Hiawatha than the Empire Builder, as everyone knows.
1. Billings* 118k
2. Missoula 77k
3. Great Falls 60k
4. Bozeman* 57k! That is some fast growth for Montana!
5. Butte** 35k
6. Helena** 35k
7. Kalispell# 29k
8. Belgrade*? 14k WTH? - Belgrade was Class C when I left in 1982, now it is Class AA!
9. Whitefish# 10k
10. Anaconda 10k
11. Havre# 9k
12. Livingston* 9k
13. Miles City* 8k
14. Laurel* 7k
15. Lewiston 6k

* On or very near Hiawatha route
** May be on Hiawatha routes, it just depends...
# on or very near Empire Builder route.

 

[jis]

I think the Butte route is just mentioned for completeness. The route through Homestake Pass barely meets the criterion used by FRA of routes where railroad is in place. It has been out of service for decades now. I think if the North Coast Hiawatha is restored it will run through Helena and then cross the Continental Divide through Mullan Pass.

 

[Northwestern]

I'm kind of surprised, in the interest to restore much of the North Coast Hiawatha route, they didn't suggest a Cheyenne-Rock Springs-Ogden-Boise link. The Auburn-Yakima-Kennewick route is interesting. It would be nice if they could restore some of the old BNSF or NP depots.
Why would it stop in Kennewick when there is a working Amtrak station in Pasco?

 

[jis]

I'm kind of surprised, in the interest to restore much of the North Coast Hiawatha route, they didn't suggest a Cheyenne-Rock Springs-Ogden-Boise link. The Auburn-Yakima-Kennewick route is interesting. It would be nice if they could restore some of the old BNSF or NP depots.
Why would it stop in Kennewick when there is a working Amtrak station in Pasco?

On the FRA diagram the names of places are not specific passenger stations, they are just identification of geographic areas, possibly based on freight railroad maps. Sometimes the names match current name of a passenger station in the area sometimes not. What it shows in route segments where there is no passenger service at present, are known freight routes that exist that are not abandoned. My guess is that the freight route for the Stampede Pass line meets the Columbia Gorge route at some place called Kennewick or some such. As I mentioned this route was followed by the Empire Builder when the North Coast Hiawatha was operating, and was using the Stevens Pass route. When the NCH was discontinued the Empire Builder was moved to the Stevens Pass route, and the Portland section was created to serve Pasco and on to Portland along the North shore of the Columbia River. At that time, the Pioneer ran along the South shore of the Columbia River.

 

[Willbridge]

On the FRA diagram the names of places are not specific passenger stations, they are just identification of geographic areas, possibly based on freight railroad maps. Sometimes the names match current name of a passenger station in the area sometimes not. What it shows in route segments where there is no passenger service at present, are known freight routes that exist that are not abandoned. My guess is that the freight route for the Stampede Pass line meets the Columbia Gorge route at some place called Kennewick or some such. As I mentioned this route was followed by the Empire Builder when the North Coast Hiawatha was operating, and was using the Stevens Pass route. When the NCH was discontinued the Empire Builder was moved to the Stevens Pass route, and the Portland section was created to serve Pasco and on to Portland along the North shore of the Columbia River. At that time, the Pioneer ran along the South shore of the Columbia River.

The former NP and SP&S main lines meet in an industrial area of Kennewick to share the trans-Columbia bridge to Pasco.

BTW, in the early years of Amtrak, that former NP routing from Seattle to Spokane via Pasco drove Oregonians nuts. The connecting train left Portland at 8:00 a.m. and at 8:20 pm they'd just crossed the Columbia for the second time coming into Pasco. That replaced the pre-Amtrak four-hour trip on the North Bank line. Amtrak tried a 9:00 a.m. departure from Portland, but that was too late for business travel between the two cities. They finally settled on 8:30 a..m.

In that period I was at ODOT with a mandate to get what became the Pioneer going. In that era I used to wonder whether Amtrak would put on a PSC<>PDX section of the Empire Builder via the Villard routing on the UP and undercut the idea of a PDX<>SLC train. Of course, the routes serve different markets, but the media in Portland wouldn't have noticed that. I needn't have worried, as they weren't that clever.

Of course, as the Coast Starlight routing and schedule evolved, it was just as well for making connections that the Portland section of the Builder ran on the faster North Bank line, rather than on the UP.

 

[Dan Olsen]

Interesting. Being a Montanan, again, I notice the bifurcation of the potential/planned Hiawatha route, i.e. from Fargo, through Miles City, Billings, then either Helena or Butte and finally up to Sandpoint. Butte has always been larger population-wise than Helena, and Helena, though smaller, is the capital. So the argument could go either way. But this year is the year Helena probably exceeded Butte in population (35k each) and that does not even include East Helena's 2k. Butte's population peaked a second time in 1980 at 37k and has been stable around 35k for years. Helena's population was around 23k in 1980 and steadily rising ever since so this switch in who has the population lead will probably be a permanent one.
You might notice that distances are greater in Montana, but population figures tend be missing a few zeroes on the end. LOL!
As of early this year, though, the top 10 towns in MT are largely nearer the Hiawatha than the Empire Builder, as everyone knows.
1. Billings* 118k
2. Missoula 77k
3. Great Falls 60k
4. Bozeman* 57k! That is some fast growth for Montana!
5. Butte** 35k
6. Helena** 35k
7. Kalispell# 29k
8. Belgrade*? 14k WTH? - Belgrade was Class C when I left in 1982, now it is Class AA!
9. Whitefish# 10k
10. Anaconda 10k
11. Havre# 9k
12. Livingston* 9k
13. Miles City* 8k
14. Laurel* 7k
15. Lewiston 6k

* On or very near Hiawatha route
** May be on Hiawatha routes, it just depends...
# on or very near Empire Builder route.

This is my first post on this forum. I'm currently working with the Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority (BSPRA) to restore the former North Coast Hiawatha NCH route from Chicago to Seattle. Our primary focus on the route across the southern tiers of North Dakota and Montana from Fargo to Sandpoint where the NCH route branches off from the Empire Builder. I'm most familiar with the Butte Short Line section of the route which branches off the BNSF southern tier mainline at Logan, MT and rejoins the mainline at Garrison. This section is parallel to the BNSF mainline through Helena. The Butte connection is important because it is actually the original destination of the first passenger rail line to enter Montana in 1881 from Brigham City, UT. At one time, 5 rail lines served Butte. The route from Butte to Ogden UT for restored passenger rail service for a north-south connection is also being considered.
I actually found this forum while researching NCH passenger rail schedules. Historically, Butte has always been the the primary passenger rail route across the southern tier of Montana. It's first Northern Pacific passenger rail train arrived Sep 3, 1890. The last Amtrak schedule printed in July 29, 1979, just prior to the Amtrak discontinuation of passenger service on October 6, 1979, shows Butte as the rail served station, with bus service to Helena daily.
The Montana stations situated on the BNSF/NCH route for passenger rail restoration are Glendive, Miles City, Forsyth, Billings, Livingston, Bozeman, Butte/Helena, Deer Lodge, Missoula, Paradise and on to Sandpoint, ID, where it rejoins the Empire Builder. If you are familiar with Google Earth, I've created a slideshow of the Montana stations. At each station, in the slideshow, you can also click on the Google Street View (gray person icon) in the lower right that will then give you a street view of each depot if you click on the blue line that shows up on the slideshow map. Enjoy! You can get on a mailing list for the BSPRA at Join BSPRA mailing list. We're awaiting the decisions for the NCH route being accepted into the FRA Corridor ID Program within a week or so (late November 2023). The decision for acceptance into Amtrak's Long Distance Study is anticipated in the first half of 2024.
[email protected]

 

[jis]

Just joined the BSPRA mailing list.

Now in order for a train to get from Bozman to Butte some considerable length of track will need to be restored through Homestake Pass, which would probably cost considerable amount more than just routing the train through Helena and doing a Thruway Bus through Homestake Pass through Butte to Missoula.

 

[Dan Olsen]

It is actually 22 miles. The rails are still in place, but haven't been maintained since 1979. It has been considered in the past by Montana Rail Link (MRL). With the changeover of the MRL leased properties back to BNSF on 01 Jan 2024 after 43 years, the dynamic will also probably change. It would provide a second parallel route across the Continental Divide between Logan and Garrison.
Interestingly enough, there is a two year project going on at the local mine which is trucking ballast materials from the quarry at the "end" of the active freight rail service over Homestake Pass (the route of the Butte Short Line) to their mine which is less than a quarter mile from the other end of the out of service rail line. If that connection were here today, you can bet they'd use freight rail to move that ballast more efficiently and quickly than trucking it with side-dump trucks. They also shut down the project during the winter due to road conditions across the pass which wouldn't affect the freight rail .
The Butte Short Line route is also arguably more scenic than the route through Helena. Quite a few of the historical photos of passenger rail on the NCH are of the Butte Short Line stretches through the Jefferson River Canyon, over Homestake Pass and Durant Canyon. Butte also has the southbound connection to Ogden on the UP line which is active and also a beautiful trip.
We're giving it a try. The commissioners in Lewis & Clark County (Helena) haven't become one of other 20 counties along the route who are members of the Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority, a subdivision of the State of Montana, because they stated "Butte is going to get the service anyway". I'll do everything I can to accomplish that task for them.
The FRA still shows the Butte route as an option on the recent LDSS presentation PowerPoints.

 

[Dan Olsen]

Thanks for joining our mailing list. We'll keep you posted.

 

[joelkfla]

This is my first post on this forum. I'm currently working with the Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority (BSPRA) to restore the former North Coast Hiawatha NCH route from Chicago to Seattle. Our primary focus on the route across the southern tiers of North Dakota and Montana from Fargo to Sandpoint where the NCH route branches off from the Empire Builder. I'm most familiar with the Butte Short Line section of the route which branches off the BNSF southern tier mainline at Logan, MT and rejoins the mainline at Garrison. This section is parallel to the BNSF mainline through Helena. The Butte connection is important because it is actually the original destination of the first passenger rail line to enter Montana in 1881 from Brigham City, UT. At one time, 5 rail lines served Butte. The route from Butte to Ogden UT for restored passenger rail service for a north-south connection is also being considered.
I actually found this forum while researching NCH passenger rail schedules. Historically, Butte has always been the the primary passenger rail route across the southern tier of Montana. It's first Northern Pacific passenger rail train arrived Sep 3, 1890. The last Amtrak schedule printed in July 29, 1979, just prior to the Amtrak discontinuation of passenger service on October 6, 1979, shows Butte as the rail served station, with bus service to Helena daily.
The Montana stations situated on the BNSF/NCH route for passenger rail restoration are Glendive, Miles City, Forsyth, Billings, Livingston, Bozeman, Butte/Helena, Deer Lodge, Missoula, Paradise and on to Sandpoint, ID, where it rejoins the Empire Builder. If you are familiar with Google Earth, I've created a slideshow of the Montana stations. At each station, in the slideshow, you can also click on the Google Street View (gray person icon) in the lower right that will then give you a street view of each depot if you click on the blue line that shows up on the slideshow map. Enjoy! You can get on a mailing list for the BSPRA at Join BSPRA mailing list. We're awaiting the decisions for the NCH route being accepted into the FRA Corridor ID Program within a week or so (late November 2023). The decision for acceptance into Amtrak's Long Distance Study is anticipated in the first half of 2024.
[email protected]

Rail to Bozeman for a connection to Yellowstone would be a wonderful thing.

 

[jis]

Rail to Bozeman for a connection to Yellowstone would be a wonderful thing.

Livingston on the NCH route is the traditional gateway to Yellowstone.

 

[joelkfla]

Livingston on the NCH route is the traditional gateway to Yellowstone.

I think Bozeman may have existing bus service into the park, since it has an airport. I checked Google Maps, and the driving time is the same from either of the two.

 

[Willbridge]

I think Bozeman may have existing bus service into the park, since it has an airport. I checked Google Maps, and the driving time is the same from either of the two.

The Bozeman airport is at Belgrade, nine rail miles west of Bozeman. (Belgrade was a stop for the Mainstreeter.) Whether a van or bus service might have to backtrack to reach the Bozeman rail station would affect the Thruway potential.

 

[Dan Olsen]

Absolutely! That is part of our planning process for the route is to create connections to our recreational assets like Yellowstone. There are several access points for folks. We visit regularly and the Livingston-Gardiner-North Entrance is our favorite. Bozeman's kind of a toss-up between going back to Livingston and in the North Entrance or the other option is south through Big Sky to West Yellowstone (about 90 miles) and in the West Entrance. Xantera (concessionaire for Yellowstone) has buses which I believe will deliver you to Yellowstone now, but passenger train service would also be another pickup point for the Xantera buses. From Billings there are also several options to Yellowstone. Red Lodge to Cooke City over the spectacular Beartooth Highway into the NE entrance. Or, through Cody, WY into the East entrance and over Sylvan Pass to Yellowstone Lake.
For the Bozeman station options, the Bozeman folks are thinking there are better locations for a depot that could provide intermodal transportation options somewhere closer to Bozeman Yellowstone International airport (basically at Belgrade). It is now Montana's busiest airport and constantly expanding. Let's get passenger rail through Bozeman and give another mode of travel across the southern tier of Montana.
Unfortunately, the original rail line that ran from Livingston to Gardiner has been abandoned for years and is becoming a rails to trails path. UP served West Yellowstone, but that too was discontinued in the 1970's. We're also looking at the UP connection from Ogden to Butte which basically follows I-15. If that comes to pass, maybe the West Yellowstone connection might return through Idaho.
. . . but first, we need to get the NCH restored across the southern tier of Montana and North Dakota.

 

[Ziv]

If you are familiar with Google Earth, I've created a slideshow of the Montana stations.

I have a tough time with newer tech. Only I could follow a link to Glendive's train station and end up next to a stack of round bails on Middle Road...

https://earth.google.com/web/@46.55...UFMbk5pRm9nUm1wQlhMdVJQVThNVXN6NE41IAE6AwoBMA

 

[Ziv]

Livingston on the NCH route is the traditional gateway to Yellowstone.

Livingston has one of the nicest old train stations in Montana. It is the red brick building with the cream colored quoins.
Plus it has the museum and the historic Murray Hotel is next door, the room pictured is in the Murray and you can see the station in the window. The hotel supplies each room with a little goody bag with ear plugs. LOL!
And the Beanery Cafe next to the station is pretty darned good too. Livingston is a pretty cool little town and the drive from there down the Paradise Valley to Gardner and Yellowstone is a treat.
Unfortunately I cannot find a picture more dedicated to the station itself.

 

[Ziv]

Still can not find the facade of the station but I did find a shot of the Livingston train yard, albeit at a distance.
Plus I think I have a couple photos of what I think is the old Northern Pacific line (now Montana Link, soon to be BNSF, I believe) near Three Forks... Not sure if this stretch of track is on the route that would be used, maybe Dan knows?
Here is the Wiki link for the depot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livingston_station_(Northern_Pacific_Railway)

 

[railiner]

A depot that large, in such a small town, was probably a division headquarters…

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Livingston has one of the nicest old train stations in Montana. It is the red brick building with the cream colored quoins.
Plus it has the museum and the historic Murray Hotel is next door, the room pictured is in the Murray and you can see the station in the window. The hotel supplies each room with a little goody bag with ear plugs. LOL!
And the Beanery Cafe next to the station is pretty darned good too. Livingston is a pretty cool little town and the drive from there down the Paradise Valley to Gardner and Yellowstone is a treat.
Unfortunately I cannot find a picture more dedicated to the station itself.

Cool neon sign!

 

[Ziv]

I think I have entered too many photos, so I will quit doing that. For a while. LOL!

 

[John Bredin]

I have a tough time with newer tech. Only I could follow a link to Glendive's train station and end up next to a stack of round bails on Middle Road...

https://earth.google.com/web/@46.55...UFMbk5pRm9nUm1wQlhMdVJQVThNVXN6NE41IAE6AwoBMA

Did the same thing to me. I think those are haybales, cylindrical rather than balls.

 

[Ziv]

Did the same thing to me. I think those are haybales, cylindrical rather than balls.

I am glad I am not the only one that ended up next to a hay stack of some sort out on Middle Road! LOL!