Do Border Patrol agents still board Amtrak trains in NY and elsewhere?

[ToniCounter]

Relative to this discussion is how this WSJ reporter recently learned electrionic devices are fair game for CBP. Traveling across the border or within 100 miles of it on the train, sounds like you phone, tablet, etc is fair game no questions.

http://wesh.com/money/feds-try-to-forcefully-search-wall-street-journal-reporters-phone/40821836

The Canadian agents also has the same legal authority to conficated AND demand the password.

"The Customs Act (s99) authorizes officers to examine all goods and conveyances including electronic devices, such as cell phones and laptops." She explained that the potential punishment for Philippon is a minimum fine of $1000 and a maximum fine of $25,000 and could include possible jail time.

 

[niemi24s]

. . . what would they look for?

You don't really expect to get a meaningful answer here, do you? But if you do, how about "They'd look for anything they'd want to look for!"

 

[PVD]

Border Patrol was in the news again today. They settled a case for a half million dollars for illegal invasive search. They very often step over the line of what they are legally entitled to do. Apparently, what the agency thinks it can do and the courts and laws don't always match. Most people don't have a problem (or shouldn't) with checkpoints at or near actual border crossings (usually handled by Customs) but CBP/Border Patrol constantly tries to push the envelope on what is a "border". In the course of their legitimate function, they have to deal with pretty unsavory characters like human traffickers and drug smugglers. But they sometimes forget why they are there, and try to make drug cases a higher priority because it brings in the money and looks good. That is really the prime job of other agencies. They often step over the line in their treatment of US citizens, it has cost them dearly in many court cases. Their rights to question/inspect you including electronic devices at certain locations is very limited, not the same as a Customs inspection when crossing from another country.

ACLU Border Rights ENGLISH.pdf

 

[bmjhagen9426]

I am aware that Border Patrol makes the news. I've seen YouTube videos of Border Patrols entering the train and asking questions regarding citizenship. Also, I have heard (and seen a video about it) of an incident where a clergyman in Arizona was brutalized at the "internal checkpoint" and had to go to the court to fight for his innocence.

As for crossing the line in treating US citizens, what kind of mistreatment?

 

[ToniCounter]

Well, good points, but my question is really whether or not the border patrol guys hop on a train that does not cross borders but otherwise come close to the borders (i.e. less than 100 miles away from the borders), and if they do, how likely.

they do... personally saw two on Amtrak train between NY and PA last week of July. (trains not going to/from Canada)

 

[MARC Rider]

Relative to this discussion is how this WSJ reporter recently learned electrionic devices are fair game for CBP. Traveling across the border or within 100 miles of it on the train, sounds like you phone, tablet, etc is fair game no questions.

http://wesh.com/money/feds-try-to-forcefully-search-wall-street-journal-reporters-phone/40821836

What do you mean by fair game? And when they play fair game on electronic devices (to include my laptop that I am writing this reply from), what would they look for?

Uh-oh, my Dad and I stopped off at Derby Line, VT on our drive home from Maine. We went to see the Library that was built right across the border. I could have had my cellphone camera confiscated as I was taking a picture of my dad right at the border pylon. Good thing no border patrol agents drove by.

 

[MARC Rider]

but CBP/Border Patrol constantly tries to push the envelope on what is a "border".

There are armed Border Patrol and CBP agents roaming the public areas of the Ronald Reagan Building in down town DC. Yeah, I know, it's the agency HQ, but we're at least 20 miles from the nearest Port of Entry (Dulles or BWI) and 100 mile from the coast. If we at EPA next door can handle our security needs with rent-a-cops, surely CBP can, to.

 

[ToniCounter]

but CBP/Border Patrol constantly tries to push the envelope on what is a "border".

There are armed Border Patrol and CBP agents roaming the public areas of the Ronald Reagan Building in down town DC. Yeah, I know, it's the agency HQ, but we're at least 20 miles from the nearest Port of Entry (Dulles or BWI) and 100 mile from the coast. If we at EPA next door can handle our security needs with rent-a-cops, surely CBP can, to.

Don't forget another airport that's much closer to downtown DC!

DCA is also considered a point of entry for that purpose.

Air Canada and American fly to/from Canada. JetBlue

flies to the Bahamas. Although incoming passengers

go through pre-clearance when boarding at those foreign

cities. DCA is only 2 miles away in a straight line.

In addition, US CBP has agents posted at DCA. I assume

to clear private flights arriving from foreign airports.

Andrews also has foreign VIP flights landing there, so it can

also "technically" be considered a border.

Then there's the port of Baltimore, a huge port receiving

hundreds of foreign ships.

 

[AlanB]

I saw the CBP on my recent trip this past July coming home on the LSL at Buffalo. However, their inspection from what I could tell seemed very targeted; as in they had some info and were looking for someone in particular. And we didn't take much of a delay at all because of it.

This IMHO has seemed to be the case the last few years, that is to say, their visits are brief and apparently targeted when they happen. Contrast that to several years ago when the inspections were quite regular and took a long time and considerably delayed the trains. While of course it was never proven, and would probably be hard to prove without insider info, there were many in the press and the public (especially the riding public) who felt that the inspections were ordered by the very anti-Amtrak, anti-rail Bush administration to delay the trains and make riding more inconvenient and make the delays worse than they already were. After the media started picking up the story a lot, the inspections slowed down, went quicker when they happened, etc. This if memory serves started to happen during the final 2 years of the Bush administration and the trend has continued.

I'm not sure just how many were ever caught on the LSL, but there were several illegals caught on the Empire Builder over the years, including one rather high profile case. And inspections have caught many on the Pacific Surfliners coming up from San Diego. In fact, for many years that train seemed to be both a drug & illegal's run. It's not so much anymore to my knowledge, but still they continue inspections in order to ensure that the Pacific Surfliner's don't once again become a train for those avoiding the law.

My big issue with these inspections years ago was the huge delay incurred. 300 people were delayed for a hour or longer sometimes, just in the hope that they might catch one illegal. I'm of the mind that if they can't target someone specifically, then they either shouldn't be there, or if they want to go fishing then they need to board the train and stay on the train until the next station or some convenient crossing. Delaying 300 for a fishing expedition shouldn't be allowed IMHO.

 

[ToniCounter]

I saw the CBP on my recent trip this past July coming home on the LSL at Utica. However, their inspection from what I could tell seemed very targeted; as in they had some info and were looking for someone in particular. And we didn't take much of a delay at all because of it.

This IMHO has seemed to be the case the last few years, that is to say, their visits are brief and apparently targeted when they happen. Contrast that to several years ago when the inspections were quite regular and took a long time and considerably delayed the trains. While of course it was never proven, and would probably be hard to prove without insider info, there were many in the press and the public (especially the riding public) who felt that the inspections were ordered by the very anti-Amtrak, anti-rail Bush administration to delay the trains and make riding more inconvenient and make the delays worse than they already were. After the media started picking up the story a lot, the inspections slowed down, went quicker when they happened, etc. This if memory serves started to happen during the final 2 years of the Bush administration and the trend has continued.

I'm not sure just how many were ever caught on the LSL, but there were several illegals caught on the Empire Builder over the years, including one rather high profile case. And inspections have caught many on the Pacific Surfliners coming up from San Diego. In fact, for many years that train seemed to be both a drug & illegal's run. It's not so much anymore to my knowledge, but still they continue inspections in order to ensure that the Pacific Surfliner's don't once again become a train for those avoiding the law.

My big issue with these inspections years ago was the huge delay incurred. 300 people were delayed for a hour or longer sometimes, just in the hope that they might catch one illegal. I'm of the mind that if they can't target someone specifically, then they either shouldn't be there, or if they want to go fishing then they need to board the train and stay on the train until the next station or some convenient crossing. Delaying 300 for a fishing expedition shouldn't be allowed IMHO.

Don't forget the Border Patrol's plan to build an inspection station

on the interstate near Youngstown, OH... near where I-78 and I-80

meet. (both carry a LOT of vehicle traffic between New York City

and Chicago.... so a lot of illegal aliens travel on these routes)

This is similar to what they have on interstates in California and

Arizona, both near the southern border with Mexico.

Last I heard, the plan never went anywhere because of objections

from Ohio and Pennsylvania members of congress, as well as funding

problems.

 

[AlanB]

but CBP/Border Patrol constantly tries to push the envelope on what is a "border".

There are armed Border Patrol and CBP agents roaming the public areas of the Ronald Reagan Building in down town DC. Yeah, I know, it's the agency HQ, but we're at least 20 miles from the nearest Port of Entry (Dulles or BWI) and 100 mile from the coast. If we at EPA next door can handle our security needs with rent-a-cops, surely CBP can, to.

Airports are not considered a border. A border is defined as an ocean or between Mexico or Canada. So for example, a CBP agent could not board the LSL in Albany, NY because Albany also happens to have an international airport. Which is why they always target the LSL in either Erie, PA; Buffalo, NY; or Rochester, NY.

 

[AlanB]

Don't forget the Border Patrol's plan to build an inspection station

on the interstate near Youngstown, OH... near where I-78 and I-80

meet. (both carry a LOT of vehicle traffic between New York City

and Chicago.... so a lot of illegal aliens travel on these routes)

This is similar to what they have on interstates in California and

Arizona, both near the southern border with Mexico.

Last I heard, the plan never went anywhere because of objections

from Ohio and Pennsylvania members of congress, as well as funding

problems.

I suppose that there could be another reason that the plan went no where. They used to have an inspection point on I-87 well south of the Canadian border, but still within the 100 mile limit. The problem was that they literally stopped you right on the road to ask you a few quick questions, before either allowing you to continue or telling you to pull into the rest area right by the inspection point. After a few high profile crashes, including one where at least one car caught fire and IIRC someone died, the inspection point was abandoned.

 

[ToniCounter]

I suppose that there could be another reason that the plan went no where. They used to have an inspection point on I-87 well south of the Canadian border, but still within the 100 mile limit. The problem was that they literally stopped you right on the road to ask you a few quick questions, before either allowing you to continue or telling you to pull into the rest area right by the inspection point. After a few high profile crashes, including one where at least one car caught fire and IIRC someone died, the inspection point was abandoned.

That hasn't stopped them from operating the current inspection stations on the interstates/highway in California and Arizona?

 

[AlanB]

I suppose that there could be another reason that the plan went no where. They used to have an inspection point on I-87 well south of the Canadian border, but still within the 100 mile limit. The problem was that they literally stopped you right on the road to ask you a few quick questions, before either allowing you to continue or telling you to pull into the rest area right by the inspection point. After a few high profile crashes, including one where at least one car caught fire and IIRC someone died, the inspection point was abandoned.

That hasn't stopped them from operating the current inspection stations on the interstates/highway in California and Arizona?

It could be that those inspection stations are in a safer location, or perhaps the amount of people being caught continues to justify the risk. Do they stop you at those places right on the highway in the travel lanes? Or do you have to pull off the road? On I-87, they stopped you in the travel lane. Sometimes causing a 1 hour backup on the highway, a highway that isn't exactly the most heavily traveled highway around.

 

[PVD]

Don't forget, What used to be Border Patrol, Customs, and INS were all lumped into Homeland Security, but they have distinct functions. Customs (dark blue) will be seen at airports and ports, and border crossings all the time. Not the same function as the green suit CBP (former Border Patrol) I have been critical of a lot of their missteps, but to be fair, the agency was drastically increased in size over a short period of time, the ability to screen candidates, train new officers and supervise them properly has been severely tested. The agency got its marching orders, and they really could not say no, we can't add all of these extra officers, tough luck. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Forgetting about the Port of Albany. Foreign flag vessel delivering goods directly. CBP definition of a boarder is much large that you would think.

The reason you see CBP in Erie area is due to a large base they have there. You can see it from the highway.

 

[PVD]

That one South of Lake Placid was dangerous. They used to wade out into I87 and wave little slow down signs and stop signs at cars and trucks going 70 mph. After a while they set up the cone lines and electric signs, but honestly if anyone coming here to cause a problem made it 70+ miles south of the border crossing, they wouldn't go down I87 through a well known checkpoint.

 

[AlanB]

Forgetting about the Port of Albany. Foreign flag vessel delivering goods directly. CBP definition of a boarder is much large that you would think.

The reason you see CBP in Erie area is due to a large base they have there. You can see it from the highway.

Doesn't change things. The ship is just like the airport; they can board the ship because it's coming from abroad. But they cannot board the train at ALB because of that. Albany itself is not within 100 miles of a border.

 

[ToniCounter]

That one South of Lake Placid was dangerous. They used to wade out into I87 and wave little slow down signs and stop signs at cars and trucks going 70 mph. After a while they set up the cone lines and electric signs, but honestly if anyone coming here to cause a problem made it 70+ miles south of the border crossing, they wouldn't go down I87 through a well known checkpoint.

What other road

Doesn't change things. The ship is just like the airport; they can board the ship because it's coming from abroad. But they cannot board the train at ALB because of that. Albany itself is not within 100 miles of a border.

true, but Albany is basically trapped in the middle of those zones:

I haven't looked at this map in a while. It just occurred to me that a lot of Amtrak train go through the 100-mile border zone.

 

[PVD]

The 2 different groups also have different sets of legal doctrines under which they operate, but that is a lengthy topic that probably does not need to be on this board. The information is readily available online. Answer to other question: rt 9, or 9W or 9N until past the checkpoint

 

[AlanB]

That one South of Lake Placid was dangerous. They used to wade out into I87 and wave little slow down signs and stop signs at cars and trucks going 70 mph. After a while they set up the cone lines and electric signs, but honestly if anyone coming here to cause a problem made it 70+ miles south of the border crossing, they wouldn't go down I87 through a well known checkpoint.

After the first few accidents, they installed a whole bunch of warning signs. IIRC, the first one's appeared 5 miles away from the actual inspection point. Might have been 3. Despite those warning signs, the accidents continued.

I used to drive that highway with some regularity, going to the Lake Placid area a few times a year. Even I often started taking back roads, even though that would typically be slower, simply to avoid the delays caused by the inspection point, which made the normally faster route slower than the back roads.

 

[MARC Rider]

but CBP/Border Patrol constantly tries to push the envelope on what is a "border".

There are armed Border Patrol and CBP agents roaming the public areas of the Ronald Reagan Building in down town DC. Yeah, I know, it's the agency HQ, but we're at least 20 miles from the nearest Port of Entry (Dulles or BWI) and 100 mile from the coast. If we at EPA next door can handle our security needs with rent-a-cops, surely CBP can, to.

Airports are not considered a border. A border is defined as an ocean or between Mexico or Canada. So for example, a CBP agent could not board the LSL in Albany, NY because Albany also happens to have an international airport. Which is why they always target the LSL in either Erie, PA; Buffalo, NY; or Rochester, NY.

When I fly internationally and arrive home and go through Customs, there are Border Patrol Agents hanging around, as well as the regular CBP inspectors. I think from their point of view a "Port of Entry" is a Port of Entry, whether it's the Rouses's Point or the international arrivals hall at BWI or Dulles. I hadn't thought about how they consider airports like DCA that handle only pre-cleared passengers from abroad. Presumably they know who's coming in, so they'd only need to send their agents there is there was a "person of interest" on one of the inbound flights. Heck, now they know who's coming in even at the regular international arrivals, but they still need the opportunity to extract duties and check bags for contraband.

 

[MARC Rider]

That one South of Lake Placid was dangerous. They used to wade out into I87 and wave little slow down signs and stop signs at cars and trucks going 70 mph. After a while they set up the cone lines and electric signs, but honestly if anyone coming here to cause a problem made it 70+ miles south of the border crossing, they wouldn't go down I87 through a well known checkpoint.

What other road

Doesn't change things. The ship is just like the airport; they can board the ship because it's coming from abroad. But they cannot board the train at ALB because of that. Albany itself is not within 100 miles of a border.

true, but Albany is basically trapped in the middle of those zones:

I haven't looked at this map in a while. It just occurred to me that a lot of Amtrak train go through the 100-mile border zone.

Yeah, for example all of the NEC. As well as VRE, MARC, SEPTA, NJT, LIRR, Metro North, Shore Line, MBTA, etc.

Not to mention the corridors and commuter operations on the West Coast.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the jackbooted forces of the 'Migra started questioning passengers on the Acela.....

 

[AlanB]

but CBP/Border Patrol constantly tries to push the envelope on what is a "border".

There are armed Border Patrol and CBP agents roaming the public areas of the Ronald Reagan Building in down town DC. Yeah, I know, it's the agency HQ, but we're at least 20 miles from the nearest Port of Entry (Dulles or BWI) and 100 mile from the coast. If we at EPA next door can handle our security needs with rent-a-cops, surely CBP can, to.

Airports are not considered a border. A border is defined as an ocean or between Mexico or Canada. So for example, a CBP agent could not board the LSL in Albany, NY because Albany also happens to have an international airport. Which is why they always target the LSL in either Erie, PA; Buffalo, NY; or Rochester, NY.

When I fly internationally and arrive home and go through Customs, there are Border Patrol Agents hanging around, as well as the regular CBP inspectors. I think from the point of view a "Port of Entry" is a Port of Entry, whether it's the Rouses's Point or the international arrivals hall at BWI or Dulles. I hadn't thought about how they consider airports like DCA that handle only pre-cleared passengers from abroad. Presumably they know who's coming in, so they'd only need to send their agents there is there was a "person of interest" on one of the inbound flights. Heck, now they know who's coming in even at the regular international arrivals, but they still need the opportunity to extract duties and check bags for contraband.

They're allowed at a port/point of entry. But only at that specific point of entry; unless they are within 100 miles of a border. So the CBP can show up for example at the airport in Phoenix, Arizona to check people. But they cannot board the SWC in Phoenix because it's not within 100 miles of a border.

 

[AlanB]

Yeah, for example all of the NEC. As well as VRE, MARC, SEPTA, NJT, LIRR, Metro North, Shore Line, MBTA, etc.

Not to mention the corridors and commuter operations on the West Coast.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the jackbooted forces of the 'Migra started questioning passengers on the Acela.....

You raise an interesting point. In all my years of riding the LSL, typically 2 or 3 times a year, only once have I ever seen the CBP walk through the sleeping cars. They generally only swept the coach cars.