Does Amtrak have enough diesel locomotives?

[BCL]

I started thinking about this when I researched what the locomotive numbers were. 1-207 were for the GE Genesis P42DC models and several are out of commission and/or in the process of serious repair. The Wikipedia article says Amtrak has 351 diesel locomotives and 74 electric.

Is this really enough? I say this after seeing a Coast Starlight stopped with two locomotives. I'm thinking they need four trainsets at any given time, and this is just one route. The California Zephyr probably has more each needing two locomotives. I've taken or seen Amtrak California trains, and they seem to borrow a standard Amtrak locomotive maybe a third of the time. With all the long distance routes I'm wondering how they have enough locomotives given that they need at least two to pull a long train. Or perhaps I'm overestimating the number of trains there are pulling large loads at any given time.

 

[Nathanael]

No, Amtrak does not have enough diesel locomotives. However, it has enough for long-distance services, until they wear out.

Amtrak did have plenty of diesels when they bought the P42s, but (a) some of them have broken down or been wrecked in crashes, and (b) Amtrak is running a lot more corridor services than they were then.

Meanwhile, Amtrak has bought only a few new diesels since then (the F59-PHIs). The shortage of diesels is demonstrated by the fact that ARRA money was used to bring 15 P40s back from the dead. The shortage is somewhat alleviated by pressing P32-8s (Dash-8s) back into road service.

The requirement for "long-distance" diesels -- counting those trains listed in the consist listings on this forum, and assuming they all run with two P42s -- is around 116 (I'm not sure how the locomotives are handled on the Portland section of the Empire Builder.) There are 196 active P42s. That allows for a comfortable shop count, even if you add in protect engines, a daily Sunset Limited and Cardinal, etc.

It's when you add in all the corridor trains that the shortage of diesels becomes apparent. However, the "four-state consortium" which is buying the new bilevel cars (California, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri), along with the State of Washington, are getting ready to buy their own diesels for corridor routes:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-03-21/news/ct-met-high-speed-locomotives-0322-20130322_1_louis-corridor-locomotives-and-passenger-coaches-new-locomotives

That should relieve most of the sheer numerical pressure. Of course, even with the five-state order, the Heartland Flyer, Hoosier State, Downeaster, and Virginia services will still need Amtrak locomotives.

A further problem is that the diesel locomotives don't last forever. The Dash-8s are considered tired at 22 years old; the P42s are already 17 years old. Amtrak will need to replace the P42s soon, and has said so in its fleet strategy plan.

Finally, the supply of dual-modes for the Empire Corridor, Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Ethan Allen Express and Lake Shore Limited services into NY is very limited -- there are only 17 -- and anything going wrong with several of these could cause serious trouble on these routes. (Metro-North has some which could be converted in a pinch, though.)

 

[AlanB]

At last count, about a year ago, 10 of the 207 were out of service.

This is one reason that Amtrak used Stimulus monies to restore to working order 15 of the P40's that had been mothballed. And if Amtrak could find the money, I suspect that they would restore to service several more of the 14 P40's still in mothballs. Although right now, most of those have been cannibalized for their trucks to deal with the cracking problems on the P42 trucks.

Is Amtrak in dire straights right now? No. But things are tight when it comes to having enough working units in service at any given moment and Amtrak is on occasion pressing much older engines into service in order to keep things running.

 

[the Other Mike]

You can NEVER have enough locos, diesels or electric, or steam for that matter.

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

Should have rebuilt the F40s like VIA did, perhaps.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Should have rebuilt the F40s like VIA did, perhaps.

I heard Amtrak's F40s were tired looking by the time they were retired. Plus you have to keep in mind, most of VIA's trains are not daily like Amtrak. If they were, we would be seeing Genesis locomotives and Viewliners running throughout VIA Rail's system.

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

Should have rebuilt the F40s like VIA did, perhaps.

I heard Amtrak's F40s were tired looking by the time they were retired. Plus you have to keep in mind, most of VIA's trains are not daily like Amtrak. If they were, we would be seeing Genesis locomotives and Viewliners running throughout VIA Rail's system.

VIA's F40 rebuilds were quite extensive, they tore them down to the frame and completely rebuilt them, new prime movers, a new HEP system, and a plethora of other improvements.

 

[VT Hokie]

Finally, the supply of dual-modes for the Empire Corridor, Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Ethan Allen Express and Lake Shore Limited services into NY is very limited -- there are only 17 -- and anything going wrong with several of these could cause serious trouble on these routes. (Metro-North has some which could be converted in a pinch, though.)

Amtrak could've had a fleet of Turboliners to supplement them, but instead decided that throwing away freshly rebuilt equipment and trashing New York's investment was a better idea. Speaking of which, what is Amtrak holding onto the three Turbos in Bear, DE for? I wish they'd find a way to use 'em, or send them to a museum. But I wonder if the idea is to just let them deteriorate into forgotten junk so that scrapping them doesn't seem like the scandalous waste that it is.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

The rebuilt turbos were a disaster. Super steel botched the overhaul. Amtrak also shot themselves in the foot by not following the repair manual and instead of replacing the truck springs in pairs opted to replace them one at a time putting too much stress on the truck frames causing them to crack. Then the stack fires cause amtrak didn't read the manual on how to clean them. Short term gain long term loss.

 

[cirdan]

A further problem is that the diesel locomotives don't last forever. The Dash-8s are considered tired at 22 years old; the P42s are already 17 years old. Amtrak will need to replace the P42s soon, and has said so in its fleet strategy plan.

Why is that? Were these poor designs from day one? Or is it poor maintenance? There is nothing extraordinary in getting 30 to 40 years of servce out of a diesel locomotive.

 

[xyzzy]

It's a question of duty cycle. You can have a GP7 that lasts 50 years if it runs only 3 hours a day, 3 days a week and rarely gets above Notch 4. If you have a P42 that is running flat-out on a long-distance train for 24 or 48 hours at a pop, then turned around quickly and put back on the road for another 24 or 48 hours, the equipment ages quickly. Even on class 1 freight railroads, only some locomotives are assigned that kind of duty cycle -- and they also tend to show wear after 15-20 years, such that they get thoroughly rebuilt or are demoted to less demanding service.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Amtrak runs its locomotives a lot harder than any freight or commuter line.

 

[battalion51]

Consider this, power usually ends up being "captive" on certain routes for a period of time. For example, AMTK 145 has been running back and forth on Silver Service for a little while now, as evidenced on Railpictures and ASM. It's a minimum of 1164 miles (maximum of 1296 miles) between Washington and Miami (depending on whether you run on the Meteor or Star). So the power leaves Miami on 98 on day 1, arrives in Washington on the morning of day 2, goes to Ivy City for inspections/fuel/sand, then goes right back to the station and is put on 91 headed south, and arrives back in Miami on day 3. So that engine just ran 2,460 miles in a period of about 60 hours (average speed 41 MPH). Now, if that engine is leading then it won't work quite as hard as if it's trailing and has the HEP load put on it. If it's trailing with the HEP load on it, it will run at approximately Notch 6 engine speeds the whole time. If an engine does this work for 300 days a year (and that's probably a low ball estimate), the engine will have 246,000 miles put on it in one year. Now granted, there are some runs that the engine will cycle into that are shorter, like the Vermonter, Springfield Shuttles, Hiawatha, etc. But the principles here are still the same, these engines have millions of miles on them, and get hundreds of thousands of miles put on them every year, with their prime movers rarely being shut down. It's not too surprising to me that they only last 20-25 years.

 

[Paulus]

Why is that? Were these poor designs from day one? Or is it poor maintenance? There is nothing extraordinary in getting 30 to 40 years of servce out of a diesel locomotive.

Uh, yes there is, at least in regular railroad service. 30-40 years is what a good electric class will optimistically give, economic lifespan of a diesel is about 20 years.

 

[VT Hokie]

The rebuilt turbos were a disaster. Super steel botched the overhaul. Amtrak also shot themselves in the foot by not following the repair manual and instead of replacing the truck springs in pairs opted to replace them one at a time putting too much stress on the truck frames causing them to crack. Then the stack fires cause amtrak didn't read the manual on how to clean them. Short term gain long term loss.

Ah, the truth comes out! I always suspected there was more to the story than a/c problems. So, Amtrak broke them and then found a lame excuse to cover it up.

 

[BCL]

Really I started thinking about this as I saw the CS stopped with two P42s. Then later I was doing a search and found a photo of one of the P42s used on the San Joaquin that was lying diagonally on the tracks after the train got slammed by a semi hauling cotton waste. It occurred to me that a lot of the P42s are borrowed on the corridor routes even though they theoretically have their own locomotives. Then I see the Oakland maintenance facility and a couple are being maintained and/or waiting to be put in service. This is a tiny portion of Amtrak's service area so I'm thinking this is replicated all over the country.

 

[battalion51]

Really I started thinking about this as I saw the CS stopped with two P42s. Then later I was doing a search and found a photo of one of the P42s used on the San Joaquin that was lying diagonally on the tracks after the train got slammed by a semi hauling cotton waste. It occurred to me that a lot of the P42s are borrowed on the corridor routes even though they theoretically have their own locomotives. Then I see the Oakland maintenance facility and a couple are being maintained and/or waiting to be put in service. This is a tiny portion of Amtrak's service area so I'm thinking this is replicated all over the country.

The only areas I can think of where there is a "separate fleet" of engines from the main diesel pool is Surfliners, Capitol Corridor/San Joaquin, Cascades, and Piedmonts. Other than that, any other services Amtrak operates, usually everything is captive except for potential switcher usage or true emergency breakdown situations (Metrolink, SLE, MARC, etc.).

 

[jis]

I started thinking about this when I researched what the locomotive numbers were. 1-207 were for the GE Genesis P42DC models and several are out of commission and/or in the process of serious repair. The Wikipedia article says Amtrak has 351 diesel locomotives and 74 electric.

I am curious where they found 74 electric locomotives. Amtrak has not had that many in many many years, unless you count Acela power heads, in which case the number is higher than 74.
I believe as of the last time I took stock of such things, Amtrak has

At most 47 but possibly less opertional AEM-7s

15 HHP-8s

40 Acela power heads

So nominally Amtrak has 62 electric locomotives and 40 Acela power heads.

 

[battalion51]

Well considering it's Wikipedia it's entirely possible they were still counting the 12 E-60's that were removed from service and scrapped 10 years ago. They may have also counted a higher number of AEM-7's that have been removed from service in recent years.

 

[Paulus]

According to the Amtrak fleet strategy, at the end of FY12, 62 active electric locomotives (only 45 available) and 289active diesel locomotives (244 available).

 

[jis]

Well considering it's Wikipedia it's entirely possible they were still counting the 12 E-60's that were removed from service and scrapped 10 years ago. They may have also counted a higher number of AEM-7's that have been removed from service in recent years.

Yep. According to our friend Dave Warner the last E60 to be retired was 608 and it was retired in July 2004.

 

[AlanB]

The rebuilt turbos were a disaster. Super steel botched the overhaul. Amtrak also shot themselves in the foot by not following the repair manual and instead of replacing the truck springs in pairs opted to replace them one at a time putting too much stress on the truck frames causing them to crack. Then the stack fires cause amtrak didn't read the manual on how to clean them. Short term gain long term loss.

Ah, the truth comes out! I always suspected there was more to the story than a/c problems. So, Amtrak broke them and then found a lame excuse to cover it up.

I know that you'd love to find anything to bring back the Turboliners, but you're misreading what Wolverine wrote. He sort of strung 2 points together in his response. The springs he mentions are for the trucks on the P42's, we had a big topic on this a while back. It's because the trucks on the P42's are cracking that a bunch of mothballed P40's were sent to Beech Grove so that their trucks could be used to return P42's to service until new trucks can be obtained.

This issue has nothing to do with the Turboliner's or Supersteel's failures. The AC issues are real. The trains guzzle fuel by comparison to the rest of the fleet. And there were other problems with the rebuilds too. Finally, having yet another type of train with its unique parts & tools is simply an expense that Amtrak doesn't need.

The Turboliners were a failed dream of NY Politicians who had no clue what they were getting into. All they saw were jobs in NY State and s shiny train to point to at election time. Reality wasn't allowed to intrude on that dream.

 

[Nathanael]

The rebuilt turbos were a disaster.

They're also fuel hogs. Amtrak would be better off buying leftovers from VIA, which keeps cutting service.

 

[CHamilton]

According to a post on Facebook, Amtrak may have lost another one.

A wrecked Amtrak unit sits at UP's Settegast Yard Roundhouse. — in Houston, TX.... It hit a 18-wheeler near Lissie, TX, which is about 70 miles west of Houston. It was #2 the eastbound Sunset Limited.

 

[BCL]

Just passed the Oakland maintenance yard and noticed an 800 series Genesis (820 I think) paired with a low numbered locomotive. That's a P40, right? The P40 was backwards and the P42 was leading. I thought that the P40s were best suited for single operation because they have mechanically actuated brakes.