Dropping Routes If Needed

[Amfleet]

Now don't jump on me, but if Amtrak did need to drop some trains I my opinion the follwoing trains could be annuled:

- Pennsylvanian (Three Rivers covers New York - Pittsburgh and Capitol Limited provides Pittsburgh - Chicago on Clevland/Toledo route)

- Kentucky Cardinal (just not needed)

- Cardinal (Washington - Chicago service provdided by Capitol Limited)

- Sunset Limited (cut New Orleans to Los Angeles only leave Orlando New Orleans service)

- Empire Builder (cut Seattle Section, connection to Seattle can be made via Cascade)

What do you guys think?

 

[Viewliner]

I would rather not see any routes cut, but some are feasable, like service that can be replaced.

Also Why not make it NOL to MIA if you cut LAX.

 

[AlanB]

Amfleet,

While I understand what your asking and where you are coming from, let me start by saying that cutting anything is the worse thing that Amtrak can do. I feel that I must cover this topic, simply for the benefit of visitors that may not understand all of this.

First of all, even if a route does loose serious money, it may still be feeding passengers into another Amtrak route that does ok. Without those passengers coming in on the first train to transfer, you may now be cutting into the revenue of the second train. Secondly, and this is something that many in Congress don’t seem to understand, cutting any route this year will not save Amtrak any money for at least two years. Even if Amtrak were to cut half of it’s long distance routes this year, they would still need the 1.2 billion or they would have to file for bankruptcy.

Now that said, lets start with the Empire Builder. I certainly would not recommend pulling the plug on the Seattle segment. If anything I would kill the Portland segment and even that really makes no sense. First of all I believe that the Seattle leg actually draws more passengers than does the Portland leg. Secondly any savings would really be minimal vs. the lost revenue. Remember that you are pulling only one train for most of the entire distance, so you only need one crew up to Spokane. The extra cost of splitting the train in Spokane is minimal and it doesn’t add that much more for the extra crew and engine from Spokane to Portland.

Next assuming that the Kentucky Cardinal does not get extended, something that won’t happen this year at least, then I could probably advocate killing the Kentucky Cardinal. Frankly however if Amtrak is going to drop hauling freight and road railers, what I would do is change the K-Card’s schedule to leave in the morning from Louisville and return in the afternoon from Chicago. Running this train on a faster daylight schedule would increase ridership tremendously. After all Amtrak currently run’s 2 thruway bus connections from Louisville to Chicago each day, in addition to the K-Card. The main reason that this train runs overnight is two fold, one to save money by combining it with the Cardinal on the days that train runs. Secondly, its schedule is dictated by the freight it hauls from Louisville.

If you changed the schedule, speeded the train up, and dropped at least one Thruway bus; I would bet that this route would make money. It’s a train that could and should appeal to both business travelers and leisure travelers.

For the Pennsylvanian, I would probably stop running that train to Chicago. I wouldn’t kill it all together though. What I would do would be to terminate that train at Toledo Ohio, where it arrives at a decent hour. Clean and turn that consist for the next mornings departure. This train does serve a useful purpose, as it’s the only train serving a major market in Ohio that doesn’t arrive in the middle of the night. Perhaps even extending it to NY would also help to boast ridership.

Now for both the Cardinal and the Sunset Limited, if Amtrak can’t do the following two things, then perhaps it’s best albeit sad if they are dropped. If they are to survive then they must run daily. Secondly one way or another, Amtrak must solve their on-time performance problems.

Again however, I return to the fact that cutting a route is not going to save money for several years. It also hurts the rest of the system by reducing choices for passengers and cutting the flow of passengers into the remaining system. So being forced to cut any train isn’t the answer, something that David Gunn has been saying from day 1.

 

[AlanB]

I know that Amfleet was really just playing what if games, when he started this topic. However I'm also going to add this comment below from a former member of the now defunct Amtrak Reform Council, James Coston. Even he is echoing some of what I was trying to say above.

Chicago attorney James Coston, a rail advocate and member of the Amtrak Reform Council, argues that cutting longer routes would place more overhead costs on those remaining.
"It's such a skeletal system, if you cut off very many trains at all, you stop one route from feeding another route," he said. "The whole revenue structure could collapse. You could end up losing more money."

You can read the full story here from the Lincoln Courier, with thanks to Prodigy's On Track On Line for finding this article.

 

[gswager]

Sunset Limited is a biggest money loser, so some changes may be needed.

I would like to split Sunset Limited in half with the hub at New Orleans. I believe there are other routes that lead to NOL which it is a mechanic stop.

The more distance on the track, the more time it'll be delayed which cost more money.

It might be work if we have some extra trainsets.

I have questions. Which part of Sunset Limited route is most likely to be delayed? If reroute to northern part of Texas (Dallas to Abilene to El Paso instead of Sanderson & Alpine), will it be minimized the delay?

 

[Coach34135]

Cant agree on Sunset Limited, I need a way to get to moms and I go out of LAX. Can't they reroute the stupid thing to get out of UP's way, maybe on some less used track they can fix up nice and just let Amtrak use it? (ok im dreaming)

 

[battalion51]

In my opinon the Sunset should be eliminated a new train called the Gulf Coast Limited should be installed. It would run daily from MIA-NOUPT. I think the route would only require one sleeper, possibly two. The route would definitely make the connection from Chicago to Miami more definite. There are selfish reasons invoved too, I WANT SUPERLINERS BACK DOWN IN MIAMI!

 

[Amtrak Watcher]

With the current nonsense going on in congress over Amtrak funding, the possibility of cutting routes will emerge. This is when the fun begins. As long as Amtrak is funded nationally, taxpayers may become outraged over the notion of funding regional rail service that only a few citizens can enjoy.

I suspect Amtrak constructed its present route system (I think only two states are excluded - not counting Alaska and Hawaii), to give the appearance of running a national system. I suspect this was done for political reasons, and Amtrak management had no alternative. This may finally shed light on the core of the matter.

 

[battalion51]

You forgot a few states in the lower 48. I know Wyoming is one of them, there is one more, I forget which one though.

 

[chefrhodes81]

hello

south dakota is the other. Mr coston in the earlier quote is exactly right. Amtrak's system is way way to small to have any efficancys of scale. There are many city pairs you cant go between on amtrak. there are right now about 2 dozen routes.

Amtrak should probably have 40 or 50 routes and fewer number of better employes and it might come closer to breaking even. also amtrak could simplify their operations by having a long term plan of going to a single type of car like viewliners to streamline repairs and making up trains.

I just don't see congress ponying up the cash.

John

please comment

 

[Superliner Diner]

I would advocate the splitting of the Sunset Limited as well at New Orleans, for the main purpose of improving timekeeping so that trains will depart NOL on time. However the drawback is misconnects should the western train get into NOL after the eastern train departs, or vice versa. I think the number of through passengers at NOL is not all that great. And the long dwells built into the schedule to accomodate the padded schedules necessary in each direction are also unattractive should the train be operating on or close to schedule.

Besides, those going from the eastbound Sunset to the northbound Crescent already have to stay overnight, and same thing southbound Crescent to westbound Sunset. I could think of a lot worse places to have to spend the night than New Orleans, which has a vibrant nightlife.

Overall, yes the Sunset should be made daily, and that includes both sections of it should it be split into two separate trains.

Perhaps the eastern Sunset, redesignated as the Gulf Coast Limited, could have its schedule flipped, so that it leaves New Orleans in the morning, serves the casino market at Gulfport & Biloxi at a decent time, and gets to Jacksonville in the evening. Then by extending it to Miami, and running it slowly, you can offer an overnight trip between Jacksonville and Miami. Currrent travel time is now about 9 hours, so even without a highly padded timetable there would be more than enough time to sleep before a morning arrival in Miami. Same goes for the other direction, late evening Miami departure, morning stop in JAX, and then daytime travel JAX-NOL.

The CARDINAL should be retained, in my opinion, and by all means it should run daily. While it does serve the Chicago-Washington market just like the Capitol Limited, it serves a very different area. Only the endpoint cities are the same. Relatively few people ride the Cardinal end-to-end, save for railfans like us and retirees who have time on their hands. There are many sub-markets served by that train, such as Washington DC to West Virginia, West Virginia to Chicago, Cincinnati to Chicago, Washington DC to Indianapolis. For those using the train at intermediate points, it's a vital link that can only be made more attractive by daily service. For this reason, calling times need to be improved as well, although there is not much one can do with the horrible overnight station stops in Indianapolis & Cincinnati to maintain transfers with other Amtrak trains in Washington and Chicago.

 

[GWR]

Ok

Well I am not sure what the cost of keeping the various yards for the different types of coaches are.

I know their are allot of people on the forum who like the superliner,

So what I would put forward to replace the superline is a coach super-viewliner Lounge which has two levels which is simular to the old Dome cars.

This is just only a thought and it would help to standardise on parts for the various repair yards.

Guy

 

[battalion51]

Superliner Diner, I think you might be missing my point on the Gulf Coast Limited. I think P016 should run out of MIA at 08:00, then continue up the Sunset's route on its current card to NOL, with a 09:20 arrival. The SB however is another story, P015 would have an evening departure (using that morning's P016 equipment) around 18:30. That would put it into JAX around noon, then into ORL at 16:00, then into MIA around 21:00. Now here's how the Sunset would work, P001 would depart NOL around 15:00 giving plenty of leeway in case of a severe delay from P016. P002 would arrive into NOL around 08:00 giving you theoretically nine hours before P015 leaves. Since UP delays are usually around 6 hours this would work pretty well. Also if the Sunset were to go daily you could flip the P002 over to P001. Now is this a plan or what?

 

[judson3b]

I believe that dropping any route should based upon the overall philosophy not just for the survival of Amtrak, but comprehensive national rail system....Even though it appears that we have very little support from those in charge of Amtrak's future, I still submit that as long as we can make our voices heard, they will have to listen to our arguments.

 

[battalion51]

The key to this still remains equipment. I believe at last count 42 Superliners are still out of service. That's enough to build at least four complete consists. Even as that is we face equipment shortages elsewhere. East coast long distance are still in a crunch for sleepers, diners, crew dorms, and lounges. It is my belief that Amfleet's (both I and II) should be kept on the corridor, period end of statement. Elsewhere new coaches are needed, lounges, diners, dorms, additional sleepers, and even baggage cars are needed. I think we should at least attempt building a few prototypes of each car, and run them. For example give the Meteor an all Viewliner look. Then let the employees run and work the cars before the cars are even ordered. This way what changes are needed before the car goes to production can be made. I think this is the sort of problem they ran into with Acela. The equipment had never been run in revenue service before we had ordered 20 trainsets.

 

[Amfleet]

Actually the current number of Superliners out of service is 67. 1 coach baggage, 4 coach smokers, 15 sleepers, 6 sightseer lounges, 1 auto train lounge, 15 coaches, 3 snack coaches, 11 diners, 7 transition sleepers, 4 cars with truck damage from the derailment of the Coast Starlight. 5 cars have already been scraped and not included with my count above. 6 of the 67 Superliners are in line to be scrapped. To some things up there are all together 536 Superliners, 5 have been scrapped, and 67 are either awaiting repair or scrapping. This information has come from the latest issue of RTN plus the OTOL equipment roster.

 

[Viewliner]

The key to this still remains equipment. I believe at last count 42 Superliners are still out of service. That's enough to build at least four complete consists. Even as that is we face equipment shortages elsewhere. East coast long distance are still in a crunch for sleepers, diners, crew dorms, and lounges. It is my belief that Amfleet's (both I and II) should be kept on the corridor, period end of statement. Elsewhere new coaches are needed, lounges, diners, dorms, additional sleepers, and even baggage cars are needed. I think we should at least attempt building a few prototypes of each car, and run them. For example give the Meteor an all Viewliner look. Then let the employees run and work the cars before the cars are even ordered. This way what changes are needed before the car goes to production can be made. I think this is the sort of problem they ran into with Acela. The equipment had never been run in revenue service before we had ordered 20 trainsets.

I think that would be a good way to test them. We definitely need more Viewliners, enough with the superliners. First we should test Crew Cars, (Retest with necessary modifications) Diners, and buy 25-50 more sleepers. Then we should move to the Lounges and Coaches, and then maybe screw around with All deluxe sleepers (Silver Service?). I know from experience many people in Standard Rooms that would get a deluxe, but they were sold out.

An Important Question: Who would build these? I'm thinking one of the following scenarios: 1) Beech Grove, like the Prototypes so we could have more control over the Design. 2) Temoinsa, or 3) Manufacturers other than Bombardier. Any input?

Amfleet, whats the date on the RTN?

 

[Amfleet]

Have beech grove build them from kits provided by another company like Temoinsa, like you said. This wil also make maintanance easier as Amtrak built the cars. Mabey budd could come back and build the shells for us.

 

[Viewliner]

Have beech grove build them from kits provided by another company like Temoinsa, like you said. This wil also make maintanance easier as Amtrak built the cars. Mabey budd could come back and build the shells for us.

Didn't someone say that they're still around, but in the Automobile industry under a different name? Also if we could get Budd back, ultimately wouldn't we want them to build the fleet?

 

[Amfleet]

Have beech grove build them from kits provided by another company like Temoinsa, like you said. This wil also make maintanance easier as Amtrak built the cars. Mabey budd could come back and build the shells for us.

Didn't someone say that they're still around, but in the Automobile industry under a different name? Also if we could get Budd back, ultimately wouldn't we want them to build the fleet?

Yes I would love to see Budd build a new fleet of cars. After all their Heritage Diners are still going strong 50 years later.

 

[Viewliner]

Have beech grove build them from kits provided by another company like Temoinsa, like you said. This wil also make maintanance easier as Amtrak built the cars. Mabey budd could come back and build the shells for us.

Didn't someone say that they're still around, but in the Automobile industry under a different name? Also if we could get Budd back, ultimately wouldn't we want them to build the fleet?

Yes I would love to see Budd build a new fleet of cars. After all their Heritage Diners are still going strong 50 years later.

And those Temoinsa Rebuilds make the car that much nicer, even though its already a good car.

 

[Miami Joe]

The Budd name was retained and is being used somewhere else. When Budd decided on shutting down its rail division in 1985, They were still building and delivering Miami's MetroRail cars. They had also built the cars(same design) for Baltimore and Sao Paulo,Brazil.

Since they were responsible for the warranties for all three systems, they changed the division's name to Transit America. TA then filed for bankruptcy and closed up in 1988. The parts vendors honored the warrantees for another 2 years.

I went to the auction at the Budd plant in 1989. When I say "they sold everything, I mean it!" They even sold the track and switches in the yard! We bought spare trucks, fluted stainless and anything else that was built by Budd. We knew that eventually an accident or something would happen and would need it in the future.

B)

 

[Viewliner]

Maybe it would work if it was Budd working at Beech Grove.

 

[Miami Joe]

Something to think about!

Look how long and how much it cost for BG to build 3 cars. Amtrak couldn't afford it!!!

This is also one of the reasons these vendors went bankrupt. The cost of materials(made in the USA) and organized labor made the railcar business unprofitable.

Companies like RaderRail and Colorado Car are not using union labor. The RR has been unionized for decades. Matter of fact, the first union on the RR was the Pullman porters and it was also the first Afro-American union.

B)

 

[Amtrak2276]

From what I understand regarding all of those damaged cars. Is not one has been repaired as of yet. Why? Mass confusion on how to pay for parts. No one has any idea where the money is going to come from.

I'm sure Bagley dragging his feet cutting jobs, which set back the so called reorganization has something to do with it. Months upon months to cuts 80 managers, and the revolving chairs is still not complete.