Back to the removal of passenger stories... In the month before Amtrak took over from the rail lines we were on the train from Chicago to Toronto. We had a seat in the parlor car as it was called then. A woman kept coming in and sitting down but had no ticket for that service. The conductor ask her to return to the coach section she had a ticket for. It was also very obvious she had been drinking pretty heavily. On about her third return to our car the Conductor took her to the vestibule, stopped the train and dropped her off!. I don't know what happened to her from there but we seemed to be in some pretty remote territory, I was quite surprised he would do it.
Elderly lady kicked off Eagle.
- Thread starter crescent-zephyr
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I once saw a whole family get kicked off the Silver Star because Pappa was pissed that he couldn't get his family diner reservations (we were all in coach, the PA wasn't working, and, of course, nobody from the diner came through the coaches to offer dinner rezzies. This was a packed train, President's Day weekend or thereabouts. Oh yes, and this was back when the Star had a diner.) The guy didn't seem too worked up about it, just pissed, he and the conductor went into the vestibule to have words, and the next thing we know, the train is stopping somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Southside Virginia, and we see police lights flashing, and this family is packing their stuff and detraining. I overheard one of the kids tell some other kids that they were going to be put on "the next train," which I presumed to be the Meteor. I guess they were getting a free ride to Rocky Mount to catch it, too. What seems weird is why involve the police if there's no cause for arrest? It's possible that the guy said something inflammatory to the conductor, but by assessment of the conductor (who got on in Washington) was that he was on a power trip. Or who knows, maybe the conductor offered them the opportunity of a real southern dinner in an authentic small-town Andy-Griffith Style southern cafe and a free ride in a squad car to Rocky Mount. Anyway, it put us behind schedule, but thanks to the magic of padding, we did arrive in Tampa (which is where I was going) on time.
Seaboard92
Engineer
Speaking again to the service animal vs support animal the problem we have is that there are very few regulations for instance. A parent came to our clinic today wanting us to make their cat an emotional support animal so they could take it to college. We turned them down of course because the only reason they wanted a certificate was to take the cat to college. Not because they had an actual need verified by a doctor.
The problem with these ESA’s is the fact the ADA does not regulate them. And by not regulating it people attempt to bring their beloved pets along as an actual service animal. Which creates problems for people who actually have a justifiable service animal. That is what I have a problem with.
The problem with these ESA’s is the fact the ADA does not regulate them. And by not regulating it people attempt to bring their beloved pets along as an actual service animal. Which creates problems for people who actually have a justifiable service animal. That is what I have a problem with.
"entitled" is a good description of her demeanor, once onboard, she was trying to divert attention from her dog when it was obvious this wasn't a service animal.
ScouseAndy
Lead Service Attendant
Mental health is the biggest killer of men under 35. If a emotional support animal saves a life then it worth 1,000,000,000,000 fake emotional support animals onboard an amtrak train.
And to suggest that someone suffering from a form of mental health shouldnt be allowed to travel is discriminatory and this attitude is one of the reasons why mental health still has such a stigma and why so many young men take their own life rather than seek help from the medical community.
The Iron Horse
Train Attendant
Bingo. Took the words out of my mouth.
I'll add this: I have zero tolerance for those who discriminate against innocent people merely because god forbid there's something about them that's (EEK!) different in any way, especially if their needs can be easily accommodated.
(Of course there are loads of entitled types out there who take things too far. Disabled or not, im not talking about them).
Someone merely requiring the comfort of an animal to make their trip do-able (or even just more enjoyable) is not asking for much! I would simply require that they be responsible about it, bring vaccine records, have their animal receive some sort of training (it does not need to be that expensive), and do their best to keep the animal from bothering other passengers. It's generally pretty easy to do.
With simple, reasonable, requirements like that, service animal or not, irresponsible people would be out of excuses.
Oh and you know what? Unruly or well behaved, I would actually prefer to sit next to an animal. Anything's better than screaming babies, entitled brats, perverts, junkies, belligerent drunks, narcissists, rude anti-social types, or any of the other types of humans causing problems for the rest of us on trains, planes and basically everywhere.
As for the elderly woman in the story, I really hope there was a lot more to it than that. She did violate the rules, but *if* everything else was ok, I think it was wrong to just kick her out like that.
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Metra Electric Rider
Engineer
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So you guys are in favor of discrimination against people who have allergies that might kill them if exposed to a dog or cat and expected their journey to be animal free?
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You had me until the last paragraph. Legitimate emotional support animals exist so people CAN be out in society. You want to make them ineligible to travel? Shameful.
No doubt there is abuse of the ADA. Let's weed out the abusers, not penalize the legits.
I want to be there when you say that to the face of a veteran traveling with a PTSD dog.
ScouseAndy
Lead Service Attendant
But no journey can be expected to be animal free, just like any visit to a restaurant or just walking out side could never be animal free.
Strangely whilst I could easily find out 150-200 people die each year in the USA due to peanut allegies I was unable to even find even an approximate number who die from coming into contact with pets.
There was an older lady with a standard poodle "support animal" on the Texas Eagle when hubby and I rode in March. We spoke to her and admired the poodle while on a fresh-air break. Woman said she was blind and the dog was her support animal. Back on the train, maybe half an hour later, the woman suddenly showed up at the door to our roomette, and proceeded to bizarrely rant and rave about politics -- hubby and I had never once mentioned this topic to her and did not engage her at any point, nor are our own leanings obvious -- while her dog lunged into the roomette and climbed all over me and hubby while frantically trying to lick our faces. At that point it was clear to me that the dog was NOT any type of trained service animal and that the woman was a little touched in the head. I finally had to ask her to leave, as her tirade showed no signs of slowing down after more than ten minutes and the dog was STILL leaping and licking all over us. I later saw the dog waiting unleashed and by itself in the passageway outside the lower level bathroom with a bowl of food next to it while owner was presumably inside. We avoided the woman for the rest of the trip but didn't mention the incidents to the conductor, as hubby felt sorry for her.
Not saying the woman in the case linked here was in the wrong, but who knows. Her dogs may well have been barking, she might have let them bother other passengers, or she herself might have bothered someone who complained to the conductor. My guess is there is more to the story, but as usual, we only hear one side in the media.
Not saying the woman in the case linked here was in the wrong, but who knows. Her dogs may well have been barking, she might have let them bother other passengers, or she herself might have bothered someone who complained to the conductor. My guess is there is more to the story, but as usual, we only hear one side in the media.
Amtrak does not recognize support animals, only service animals. On Amtrak if it is not a service animal it needs to comply with the rules for pet travel, which precludes them from being in a sleeper. If people think the rules should be changed, I respect that, but if people want to pretend the present rules apply to everyone else except them, they don' get much sympathy from me.
Over the years I've noticed posters here are prone to say that any time a conductor forcefully exerts his/her authority it's labelled a "power trip". Makes me wonder how many of those posters have ever been in a position requiring them to forcefully exert their authority over one or more adults when the need arose.
But I can this thread is quickly degenerating into one where the "do-gooders" are pitted against the "get real" crowd.
Carry on.
But I can this thread is quickly degenerating into one where the "do-gooders" are pitted against the "get real" crowd.
Carry on.
Dogs for PTSD support can be legit service dogs. Service dogs often provide service and support in ways that are not always obvious, and we should really try not to paint with too broad a brush. Almost every dog is required to ride on the floor, but certain special services require the dog to be closer, for certain types of conditions like seizure anticipation, or blood sugar irregularity detected by breath....And in the previously mentioned incident, if the dog was walking unleashed and out of control of the owner or (in some cases) the handler, she was wrong. There is no debate on that.
Service animals are vastly different than ESAs and you are taking my statement way too literary. There are exceptions of course. But people with various emotional issues have been traveling long before there was such a thing as emotional support animals. They just dealt with it. Many people get anxious about flying. Should they be able to have an emotional support animal?
The use of service animals should be more of the exception than the rule and only reserved for those that have a true medical or physiological need. Not because they simply get a bit stressed over travel. That could describe 95% of the people that travel.
Undoubtedly there is more to the story, but don't presume the media is skewing it intentionally. Amtrak, like many companies, likely has a "customer privacy" policy which means it cannot comment on specific incidents. This often leaves the companies in an awkward position vis a vis public opinion but by commenting on a passenger they potentially open themselves up to even more legal peril.
crescent-zephyr
Engineer
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I would personally be more stressed trying to travel with an animal! Ha.
Interestingly, the air carrier access act forces airlines to allow emotional support animals. Because of the rising number of problems, airlines have tightened their rules considerably. Different scenario than Amtrak, which is covered by the ADA, and does not have to accept ESA.
You can make the argument that every pet is an "emotional support animal." I'm not suggesting that pet owners shouldn't travel. I am saying the fake ESAs and fake service animals create a problem for others, and more to the point, the people who do follow rules that are meant to ensure everyone has a comfortable travel experience.
Then you didn't look very hard Andy...
ScouseAndy
Lead Service Attendant
You forget I'm in the UK and Google provides different results to if I had been in the US so yes I did, care to share the answer with me please as I am genuinely interested in the answer
Well no in your hypothetical, no it isn't. First of all you have no evidence that someone faking an ESA on a train or a plane saved their life. Second, in all your zeroes, there are an infinite number of scenarios where someone else's health, well being or more importantly the safety of flight, or train trip, is threatened.
What you're saying might be an emotional trigger for people here, but it isn't a useful way of framing the issue.
In the US, people keep pit bulls as pets. They are often, evidently, trained to kill. These snub nosed breeds have been known to attack and kill humans. Also, these breeds are subject to certain breathing difficulties and should not fly absent a letter from the veterinarian. Yet people have made repeated attempts to either ship them as cargo (some carriers no longer accept) or sneak them into the passenger cabin. When that happens who gets blamed? The pet owner? NO, the horrible mean carrier. Look, I love animals often more than people, I'm just not blind to the cons being run by pet owners who carry this to the extreme. If I'm taking Amtrak or an airline to my destination, I'm not going to purposely do anything disruptive to my fellow travelers or to the company providing the transportation. Rules for mass transit are there for a reason.
Seaboard92
Engineer
The problem isn’t the pit bull it’s the subpar owners. Case and point my office had someone dump a pit that stayed with us for six months till we could find it a home. He was by far the sweetest, most expressive, caring, and lovable dog I’ve ever had the pleasure to take care of and work with. Yes he had some rough spots because he was fifty pounds and would jump on you like an excitable puppy. But he wasn’t mean spirited. That’s the humans that train the dogs to kill. And they are the reason the breed gets a bad name.
Just like it’s the humans that give ESA’s a bad name. There are some humans who have a legitimate reason to have a service animal or esa. But there are some that don’t and those are the ones causing the issues. The problem isn’t the animal it’s the human with the animal.
Just like it’s the humans that give ESA’s a bad name. There are some humans who have a legitimate reason to have a service animal or esa. But there are some that don’t and those are the ones causing the issues. The problem isn’t the animal it’s the human with the animal.
