Electrification Harrisburg-Pittsburgh: could it happen?

[bgiaquin]

What do you guys think about the ongoing project studying electrification to Pittsburgh? I am not sure NS would allow it, but I want to hear other opinions.

 

[Shanghai]

Is the Philadelphia to Harrisburg section electricified?

 

[NS]

Is the Philadelphia to Harrisburg section electricified?

Yes. PRR electrified it in the 1930's.

 

[afigg]

What do you guys think about the ongoing project studying electrification to Pittsburgh? I am not sure NS would allow it, but I want to hear other opinions.

It could happen, but not any time soon. It would be a long term project and one that would need NS to consider using electrification for its own use. For starters, PA is dealing with its own serious transportation and infrastructure funding crisis that the state has to address first to keep bridges from falling down and SEPTA getting enough capital funding to maintain & modernize the system. Which can mostly be done by lifting an obsolete $1.25 a gallon base price cap on one of the gas tax components.

The most that could be hoped for in the near to medium term (next decade) is for PennDOT to fund some modest track upgrades between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh and add an additional frequency or two to Pittsburgh. This would have to be in a post-Corbett administration; which is likely after the 2014 given Corbett's approval numbers.

 

[jis]

Read the October Trains Magazine article on Conrail's abandoned plan to electrify to Pittsburgh (actually Conway) Yard. I doubt there will be enough passenger service to justify electrification for passenger alone anytime soon.

 

[NE933]

Better to electrify Washington DC to Richmond VA.

 

[Nathanael]

Read the October Trains Magazine article on Conrail's abandoned plan to electrify to Pittsburgh (actually Conway) Yard. I doubt there will be enough passenger service to justify electrification for passenger alone anytime soon.

You never know; it all depends on whether the incoming PA state government decides that frequent service to Pittsburgh matters. :shrug:

 

[railiner]

I doubt you will see electrification on any primarily freight roads, unless there is some sudden 1973-style oil embargo due to unrest in the Middle East, or elsewhere. There used to be a lot more electirfied routes in the US years ago, but most were removed. The only newly built electrified lines are the NEC from NHV to BOS, various light rail lines, and a couple of coal mine to powerplant roads. Even the Harrisburg line came close to going all diesel at one point, I believe.....

That said, I think lines like NHV to SPG, and WAS to RVR are more likely candidates. Perhaps even LAX to SAN. In other words, lines with heavy passenger train operations.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Only rails electrified in this country, that arent metro rail or light rail or tram, are NE Corridor and Metra Electric line. That serves passenger trains. And oh, the NICTD South Shore line, which shares some of its sections with Metra Electric line.

Correct me if I am wrong though.

I hate to be a downer, but America at this rate will never electrify any railroads. They will never build any true HSR (I will believe Cal HSR when they start building it). People are too brainwashed, Cars good, public transit bad. Not to mention subhumans known as NIMBYs,

 

[blueman271]

Only rails electrified in this country, that arent metro rail or light rail or tram, are NE Corridor and Metra Electric line. That serves passenger trains. And oh, the NICTD South Shore line, which shares some of its sections with Metra Electric line.

Correct me if I am wrong though.

I hate to be a downer, but America at this rate will never electrify any railroads. They will never build any true HSR (I will believe Cal HSR when they start building it). People are too brainwashed, Cars good, public transit bad. Not to mention subhumans known as NIMBYs,

Philly to Harrisburg is electrified, NJ Transit has numerous lines that are electrified, all of SEPTA is electrified, most of the LIRR is electrified, a good portion of MNRR is electrified and if I'm not mistaken Denver's new commuter lines are going to be electrified. The argument could be made that the Northeast has the majority of electrified services but there are certainly more than just the two you mentioned.

 

[Barciur]

I wonder why, considering the vast resources that Russia has, is the Trans-Siberian line electrified? That's 5,772 mi through very very very remote area, more remote than anything in the mainland US. Yet here, most of our railroads aren't powered..

 

[jis]

I doubt you will see electrification on any primarily freight roads, unless there is some sudden 1973-style oil embargo due to unrest in the Middle East, or elsewhere.

A middle east oil embargo would probably not have as dramatic an effect in the US this time around. It will cause a blip and then immensely increased production from the North American oil fields, at least for a while.

There used to be a lot more electirfied routes in the US years ago, but most were removed. The only newly built electrified lines are the NEC from NHV to BOS, various light rail lines, and a couple of coal mine to powerplant roads. Even the Harrisburg line came close to going all diesel at one point, I believe.....

That said, I think lines like NHV to SPG, and WAS to RVR are more likely candidates. Perhaps even LAX to SAN. In other words, lines with heavy passenger train operations.

There has been extension and reconstruction of electrification at many places.

The ones that immediately come to mind are on NJT - South Amboy - Matawan - Long Branch, Newark - Great Notch. If Boxcar George (Warrington) had not intervened in NJ there probably would have been a few more extensions. He singlehandedly killed the NJT electrification plans, and they are unlikely to be revived until after the term of the current Governor ends.

 

[afigg]

Philly to Harrisburg is electrified, NJ Transit has numerous lines that are electrified, all of SEPTA is electrified, most of the LIRR is electrified, a good portion of MNRR is electrified and if I'm not mistaken Denver's new commuter lines are going to be electrified. The argument could be made that the Northeast has the majority of electrified services but there are certainly more than just the two you mentioned.

Yes, the Denver FasTracks heavy rail commuter lines will be electrified with catenary and will serve more as regional rail lines. CalTrain from SF to San Jose is to be electrified with catenary. So there are catenary electrification upgrades for heavy rail taking place outside of the northeast. LIRR, which is 3rd rail, has plans to extend electrification on one line to Port Jefferson.
Upgrades to electrified catenary in the near to medium term is going to be limited mostly commuter lines with high services frequencies or true HSR line projects. The New Haven to Springfield is probably the best bet for the next Amtrak route to be electrified and that would mostly be driven by the NHV-SPG commuter service.

If oil price climb to where I think they will in the next 10-15 years, my bet would be that the freight rail companies will try LNG powered locomotives as a several decade stop-gap before making the substantial capital investment in electrified lines. What might tilt the balance towards choosing electrification would be federal funding and low interest loans to push electrification to reduce oil consumption, pollution, and carbon emissions for the greater national interests.

Should note that West Texas Intermediate Crude is currently at $107/barrel and Brent Crude (a better marker of the global price) is at $110/barrel. Wouldn't take much of an event to push them to $120 or $130/barrel.

 

[jis]

One of the considerations that killed Conrail's proposal to electrify was that they found that they pretty much have to maintain most of their diesel infrastructure even when they electrify specific high traffic routes. So even though they could sort of justify the basic electrification of high traffic route, the fact that it did not reduce by much the cost of maintaining diesel infrastructure and expenses titled the balance against electrification.

 

[bgiaquin]

Good discussion, thanks for the replies. What about New Haven-Springfield? I think that is a future possibility.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

I hate to be a downer, but America at this rate will never electrify any railroads. They will never build any true HSR (I will believe Cal HSR when they start building it). People are too brainwashed, Cars good, public transit bad. Not to mention subhumans known as NIMBYs,

People aren't brainwashed. People are very good at determining what their personal transportation needs are. Walking is the only thing that is more flexible than a car. And, for a whole lot of people, HSR isn't something that meets their demands. If you don't have a station within 15-25 miles of you, you're going to say "no" on HSR because it doesn't really benefit you. If you're one of the 230 million people that isn't on the NEC or at the ends of San Angeles, there's no utility in it for you, so why back it?

 

[jis]

I wonder why, considering the vast resources that Russia has, is the Trans-Siberian line electrified? That's 5,772 mi through very very very remote area, more remote than anything in the mainland US. Yet here, most of our railroads aren't powered..

Trans Siberian is electrified. The entire construction and electrification over a long period of time was funded by the central government as a national strategic initiative. There is really not much to wonder about it. Most trunk routes in India and China are electrified or are getting progressively electrified because both countries are short of oil, and have an abundance of coal and hydro to run power plants with. Europe also electrified as a matter of convenience given shortage of oil and availability of other sources to generate power.
In the US the national strategy has been doing what is necessary including deploying massive armed adventures everywhere in the world to make sure that oil prices remain low. Other countries use low source oil prices to generate revenues through taxes to build what they prefer to build. We don't.

 

[the_traveler]

Good discussion, thanks for the replies. What about New Haven-Springfield? I think that is a future possibility.

NHV-SPG has a much better chance of being electrified than HAR-PGH. While NHV-SPG has numerous passenger runs daily, HAR-PGH has only one.

 

[George Harris]

When the tunnels between Harrisburg and Pittsburg were enlarged a few years back to clear double stacks, were then enlarged sufficiently to string catenary adn still clear double stacks? My understanding is that they cannot. Since the ability to pass double stack container trains is a priority for both the NS and the state of Pennsylvania if further tunnel enlargement would be needed, which would be extremely expensive. Secondly, the line has so many curves little would be gained in speed from electrification. I see no point in even studying electrification of this line unless it is to be used as a base case cost for other projects.

Caltrain, San Francisco to San Jose is a quite different issue. It has a huge number of commuter trains many of which make a large number of stops. Inproved acceleration and not hvaing to accelerate and brake your source of power are significant benefits for this type of operation. Also, there is not need to provide for double stack clearance. There are 4 fairly tight tunnels, but I believe that a way has been worked out to string wire through them.

 

[jis]

I actually think that even WAS RVR has a better shot at electrification than HAR PGH in the next 20 years.

I believe if we can get an administration in NJ that is willing tor raise the gas tax, one of the lowest in the country, to replenish the TTF, we could get several electrification extensions. But this will not happen under the current Governor who is a dyed in the wool highway man.

 

[fairviewroad]

Secondly, the line has so many curves little would be gained in speed from electrification. I see no point in even studying electrification of this line unless it is to be used as a base case cost for other projects.

I agree. What would be the point? There are so many other rail priorities, even within the state of Pennsylvania. Double-daily diesel service PHL-PIT

would be far, far better than single-daily electric service. I realize those aren't mutually exclusive goals (more frequencies and electrification) but the

amount of $$ required to electrify is dizzying when you realize it won't actually lead, in and of itself, to more service.

 

[jis]

Secondly, the line has so many curves little would be gained in speed from electrification. I see no point in even studying electrification of this line unless it is to be used as a base case cost for other projects.

I agree. What would be the point? There are so many other rail priorities, even within the state of Pennsylvania. Double-daily diesel service PHL-PIT

would be far, far better than single-daily electric service. I realize those aren't mutually exclusive goals (more frequencies and electrification) but the

amount of $$ required to electrify is dizzying when you realize it won't actually lead, in and of itself, to more service.

PHL - PIT might be a bit of a challenge It would probably have to run via NHV, SPG, involving a reversal at SPG and turning a train at PIT will be mostly impossible. So for those two reasons it will have to be a push pull set. Also not clear how many people would want to really travel to PIT from PHL or anywhere else for that matter, to justify such a train. And yes, it will have to be electric at least PHL - NHV.
OK, I am done kidding now....

A second train PHL - PGH a definite yes.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Only rails electrified in this country, that arent metro rail or light rail or tram, are NE Corridor and Metra Electric line. That serves passenger trains. And oh, the NICTD South Shore line, which shares some of its sections with Metra Electric line.

Correct me if I am wrong though.

I hate to be a downer, but America at this rate will never electrify any railroads. They will never build any true HSR (I will believe Cal HSR when they start building it). People are too brainwashed, Cars good, public transit bad. Not to mention subhumans known as NIMBYs,

Philly to Harrisburg is electrified, NJ Transit has numerous lines that are electrified, all of SEPTA is electrified, most of the LIRR is electrified, a good portion of MNRR is electrified and if I'm not mistaken Denver's new commuter lines are going to be electrified. The argument could be made that the Northeast has the majority of electrified services but there are certainly more than just the two you mentioned.

I kinda lump all those in NE Corridor even though thats not accurate, based on where they are, Northeast US.

Only section NOT in Northeast US is Metra Electric line. And Metro North sections are mostly third rail. Useless for Amtrak mostly.

I hate to be a downer, but America at this rate will never electrify any railroads. They will never build any true HSR (I will believe Cal HSR when they start building it). People are too brainwashed, Cars good, public transit bad. Not to mention subhumans known as NIMBYs,

People aren't brainwashed. People are very good at determining what their personal transportation needs are. Walking is the only thing that is more flexible than a car. And, for a whole lot of people, HSR isn't something that meets their demands. If you don't have a station within 15-25 miles of you, you're going to say "no" on HSR because it doesn't really benefit you. If you're one of the 230 million people that isn't on the NEC or at the ends of San Angeles, there's no utility in it for you, so why back it?

It sure as hell benefits them more than, say, research on hamsters getting HIVs.

People dont oppose public transit for monetary reasons, they allow politicians to build arenas and stadiums that they wont use with public money all the time.

They dont like the hassle of construction works. Americans are too stupid and selfish. Look at John Wayne Airport for example. They choose to live near the airpot yet complain its too noisy.

 

[ayezee]

Wouldn't electrifying an existing high frequency corridor owned by Amtrak or purchasable by Amtrak make more sense. I know people have thrown out multiple of these corridors. With saying that I think funds should be put towards one of these corridors or the future NEC high speed right of way instead of a primary freight line unless Norfolk southern is interested in electrifying this area and contributing financially.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Wouldn't electrifying an existing high frequency corridor owned by Amtrak or purchasable by Amtrak make more sense. I know people have thrown out multiple of these corridors. With saying that I think funds should be put towards one of these corridors or the future NEC high speed right of way instead of a primary freight line unless Norfolk southern is interested in electrifying this area and contributing financially.

With what money, and freight companies wont necessarily agree to sell them the routes Amtrak needs the most.