anir dendroica
OBS Chief
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Service to Grand Forks, Devils Lake, Rugby may end within 24 hours.
http://www.kfyrtv.com/News_Stories.asp?news=48515
http://www.kfyrtv.com/News_Stories.asp?news=48515
Empire Builder reroute imminent
- Thread starter anir dendroica
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Once a Grand Forks resident and a frequent user of the GFK station, I am saddened. My hopes are high though.. 
It has been running badly late all month, due to the flooding. It was 119 minutes late yesterday and was averaging 170 minutes late all April. However, once the flooding recedes in North Dakota it should improve. If they do reroute via the Surrey Cutoff and New Rockford, due to Devil's Lake, that shouldn't have a negative impact, because that is a shorter route.
You can get up to a 4 week history of the timekeeping of any Amtrak train into any station at:
http://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com/
TransitGeek
Service Attendant
Following the EB re-route threads that pop up here from time to time, I've seen mixed arguments on the effects of the Surrey Cutoff routing on times at CHI. Some have said that it's a shorter route, so it'll be quicker, and others have said that it's a more congested route, increasing the possibility of delays. Is there a consensus on this issue?
anir dendroica
OBS Chief
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No consensus from me, but here are some considerations.
The good (at least in terms of speed):
The Surrey Cutoff route is 42 miles shorter, saving about 40 minutes if the average speeds are the same.
Skipping three stops will shave about a half hour off the time.
The bad:
The connection track from the Fargo Depot (on the ex-GN) to the ex-NP west of Fargo is 2.5 miles of 10 mph track (= 15 minutes).
BNSF runs a lot of freights (~30 per day?) on the Surrey line, and virtually none on the Devils Lake line. The Surrey line is mostly single track, so this will cause delays.
There are still a number of slow orders in place on the Surrey line due to soft, saturated soil conditions. (These will be lifted as it dries out.)
My guess is that the EB will be able to make the scheduled time between Fargo and Minot in the coming days, with perhaps a half hour improvement as it dries out.
#8 (29) is now showing a service disruption, last reported 10 minutes late out of Malta. Perhaps it will be the first train to take the Surrey route?
For more info, see this post by mwmnp:
http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/38126-empire-builder-flood-disruptions/page__view__findpost__p__287064
Mark
The good (at least in terms of speed):
The Surrey Cutoff route is 42 miles shorter, saving about 40 minutes if the average speeds are the same.
Skipping three stops will shave about a half hour off the time.
The bad:
The connection track from the Fargo Depot (on the ex-GN) to the ex-NP west of Fargo is 2.5 miles of 10 mph track (= 15 minutes).
BNSF runs a lot of freights (~30 per day?) on the Surrey line, and virtually none on the Devils Lake line. The Surrey line is mostly single track, so this will cause delays.
There are still a number of slow orders in place on the Surrey line due to soft, saturated soil conditions. (These will be lifted as it dries out.)
My guess is that the EB will be able to make the scheduled time between Fargo and Minot in the coming days, with perhaps a half hour improvement as it dries out.
#8 (29) is now showing a service disruption, last reported 10 minutes late out of Malta. Perhaps it will be the first train to take the Surrey route?
For more info, see this post by mwmnp:
http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/38126-empire-builder-flood-disruptions/page__view__findpost__p__287064
Mark
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V
Vrml_Basic
Guest
Been there, done that, only for me it was Spokane to SEA. As long as the buses aren't crowded, and don't play children's movies involving high pitched animals, or try to leave you at the scheduled rest stop (I kid not), it'll be a fun adventure. Someday I'll actually get to ride Amtrak the whole way to a destination west of the Mississippi, but this dashes my hopes even further.
So much for Amtrak's valiant efforts to stand tall and keep the Devils Lake track instead of taking the freight line up on their offer to follow them when they ran to the southern line. Oh well, I understand that they had to go as they can't cause the flooding to abate. They "fought the good fight" though.
Also, 10 mph track?! That's pathetic! How can freight companies afford a piece of rail so decrepit that it slows trains down to sub-bicycle speeds?! It can not be economical for a huge, hulking freight train to have to slow to 10 mph, and then get back up to speed again. If they weren't using this piece of track that much prior to the lake rising issue, why on Earth didn't they replace this piece of track as a forward-thinking measure?!
anir dendroica
OBS Chief
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Cross posted from the EB Yahoo Group. I try not to cross-post too often, but this seems highly relevant and informative. All of the EB trains are gone from the Status Maps. Not sure if there will be blizzard-related cancellations or if this is just due to the route change.
Yes, snow fell this weekend where we live west of Billings, MT. 35 degrees with 25+ mph winds. Welcome to the "high line." Empire Builder rides just south of the Canadian border along the top of Montana. Northeast Montana received over 100 inches of snow this season - the most in memory. Snow doesn't stop the train; it's the power outages which affect signalling and switching, that stops the train.
Tumbleweed
OBS Chief
Maybe consideration should be given to the old Northern Pacific route.....it's further South....lol!
mwmnp
Service Attendant
The track in question isn't 10 mph because it's decrepit, but because of curvature and being located in a relatively densely developed, industrial area. Aside from that, the freight trains that ordinarily travel on it are either coming from or going to a yard where they have to stop, so the "get back up to speed" part of your comment doesn't really apply. I'm sure you could throw some money at the situation and raise the speed limit a bit, but based on how BNSF has historically used the track, 10 mph is sufficient.
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I am not familiar with the track layout in Fargo, but it certainly seems something happened since the BN merger. Amtrak uses the GN station site, and both the route to Devil's Lake and the Surrey Sub were GN lines hosting passenger trains, right up to Amtrak day. The Western Star went up via Grand Forks, and the Empire Builder took the Surrey Sub. Was that 10 mph connection always used to get to the Surrey Sub, or was there was some track "rationalization" that removed a better connection, after the merger and Amtrak?
mwmnp
Service Attendant
Here's a map that I think can explain things better than just words. I took a BNSF document, somewhat crudely altered it, and added a few notes of my own. The track shown in blue is all former GN, while that shown in red is former NP. The track that is a thinner black line is not currently owned by BNSF, though it did once belong to either GN or NP. One of the biggest changes following the BN merger is that what is now known as the Prosper Subdivision, but was formerly the GN's main line into or out of Fargo, is not usually treated as a through route and has had most of its original signal system taken out, reducing the maximum speed to 49 mph freight/59 mph passenger.
This idea comes up often now with the Montana congressional delegation, but the stumbling block is always the number of riders and money.
Tumbleweed
OBS Chief
I would think the ridership would be at least the same.....that line serves several of the larger Montana communities...plus Fargo, Jamestown, Bismarck and Dickinson in North Dakota
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This morning's post from the Grand Forks Herald on-line newspaper. Empire Builder reroute in effect; not sure how long. Bustitution to Devils Lake, Rugby, Grand Forks.
http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/202157/
http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/202157/
fairviewroad
Engineer
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Interesting that Amtrak is still allowing for the possibility of the EB returning to the GFK route. It always sounded as though once the lake rose above
a certain level it was basically a point of no return. Amtrak.com appears to have GFK tickets blocked out through this Saturday but it's still possible
to buy tickets from GFK after then.
It could be done, but I would insist that the current route through ND be used as much as possible. I would suggest using the route between Snowdon, MT, & Glendive, MT, to connect to the east end of MRL. The west end of the route could re-connect with the existing route at Sandpoint, ID. Between ND & Chicago, I would make this a second frequency of service on the existing route.
Sounds like I was possibly on one of the last trains over that route, I was on the EB on Friday night going eastbound didn't see much I was sleeping. But we went through that area westbound earlier in the week the morning of Apr 24th and there is lots of standing water all over the place in ND. In the Devils Lake area the water was probably only a foot below the tracks if that much from what I could see looking out the window.
anir dendroica
OBS Chief
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Train 7(1) lost about two hours on the Surrey Cutoff between Fargo and Minot. Hard to see if this is a trend since most of the EB's aren't showing on the Status Maps. Slow orders + busy freight line = bad news for Amtrak, or so it would seem.
Mark
Mark
A
aurbo01
Guest
This is the latest from BNSF. Looks like Churches Ferry is now out of service. Last Friday was the last train into Rugby, Devils Lake, and Grand Forks.
Update Report: Flooding in North Dakota, Minnesota, Missouri, and Arkansas.
BNSF continues to experience some flood impacts in North Dakota, Minnesota, Missouri, and Arkansas. There are a few carload industries that we may not be able service due to high waters; re routes will be established as necessary.
Detailed information on the flooded areas impacting the Carload Network:
- Thayer Sub south is out of service at Black Rock, Arkansas.
- Devils Lake Sub is out of service at Churches Ferry, North Dakota.
- Rolla Sub from Cando, North Dakota to Bisbee, North Dakota is out of service.
- Upper Hannibal Sub is out of service at Canton, Missouri and LaGrange, Missouri.
- River Sub is out of service at McBride, Missouri and Rush Island, Missouri
- BNSF route via the Canadian National on the Letellier sub at Noyes, Minnesota is out of service. Canadian Pacific traffic will deliver at St. Paul, Minnesota. Canadian National traffic will deliver at Superior, Wisconsin.
Update Report: Flooding in North Dakota, Minnesota, Missouri, and Arkansas.
BNSF continues to experience some flood impacts in North Dakota, Minnesota, Missouri, and Arkansas. There are a few carload industries that we may not be able service due to high waters; re routes will be established as necessary.
Detailed information on the flooded areas impacting the Carload Network:
- Thayer Sub south is out of service at Black Rock, Arkansas.
- Devils Lake Sub is out of service at Churches Ferry, North Dakota.
- Rolla Sub from Cando, North Dakota to Bisbee, North Dakota is out of service.
- Upper Hannibal Sub is out of service at Canton, Missouri and LaGrange, Missouri.
- River Sub is out of service at McBride, Missouri and Rush Island, Missouri
- BNSF route via the Canadian National on the Letellier sub at Noyes, Minnesota is out of service. Canadian Pacific traffic will deliver at St. Paul, Minnesota. Canadian National traffic will deliver at Superior, Wisconsin.
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