Empire Builder Very High Fares

[minntrains]

I was pricing coach fares today from MSP to Seattle and also Chicago on the Empire Builder for some random dates in July and August. I was shocked at how expensive Amtrak has become and did a comparison with non-stop airfares. In nearly every comparison, coach fares on the Empire Builder are at least 50% higher than non-stop flights. For example, MSP-Seattle Empire Builder coach is at least $273 one-way and often over $300, while flights are available for $159 to $215 on the same dates. For MSP-Chicago, the lowest Empire Builder fare I saw was $102, while flights are available for $69 on the same dates. It makes me wonder if Amtrak is trying to see how high fares can go before people stop buying. When Amtrak coach fares are 50%+ more expensive than a plane ticket, I would assume only rail fans or those with a real fear of flying would consider the train. As it is, I think few people consider Amtrak as a practical mode of transportation to or from the Twin Cities.

 

[Ryan]

The fact that the trains are running jam packed seems to disagree with your theory.

 

[the_traveler]

For one thing, it's the law of supply and demand. For another, the Empire Builder (EB) does not just run from MSP to Seattle or MSP to Chicago. It also goes rom Red Wing, MN to Wolf Point, MT. I doubt you can get a $69 flight between the two!

Three, during the summer, the EB is almost always full. And four, I myself find the view much better at 15' than at 30,000'!

 

[Texan Eagle]

The fact that the trains are running jam packed seems to disagree with your theory.

Trains are running "jam packed" simply because there are way too few trains across the country. If by a stroke of magic, all existing LD routes get 8-10 trains per day (10 Empire Builders, 10 California Zephyrs and so on) and still they run full then I'd be inclined to believe that a lot of people across the country are actually considering Amtrak as a practical means of transport. Like it or hate it, the OP is in a way right- outside of the corridor services, the western LD trains are more of a means to vacation and enjoy one's train-love rather than a practical mode of transport to go from city A to city B. Nothing wrong in it, just saying.

 

[Guest]

I agree that Empire Builder fares are extremely high. Last weekend I rode from Boston-MSP and the CHI-MSP segment cost about $1 more than the BOS-CHI segment which is about 3 times as long.

 

[Ryan]

You couldn't be more wrong.

Try talking to some people on a train sometimes. Most folks are just trying to get from point A to point B. Especially on the route of the Empire Builder, where it really is the only means of transportation for folks to move around the country.

 

[sechs]

There also a lot of people going to/from Williston and nearby stops due to the oil fracking pick up in the region.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I've been checking the CL & CZ for "now" & for early August. CL is sold out a lot of days "now" & the CZ was sold out at least one of the upcoming days. I'm hoping to get seats on both in early August if the price is comparable to any airline (other than SW) seats that may be available then.

 

[Aaron]

... It makes me wonder if Amtrak is trying to see how high fares can go before people stop buying. ...

I would hope so, since that's pretty much exactly what a company should do when they have a limited supply of some good or service and are trying to make the most profit on the sale of said good or service.

 

[ehbowen]

Another thing: I'll bet that those airfares that the OP is comparing the train to are restricted, advance purchase, nonrefundable, and carry a heavy penalty for any changes. Compare the refundable and changeable train tickets straight up to refundable and changeable unrestricted "Y" class airfare, and I'll bet a round trip from Houston to New Orleans that Amtrak comes off looking a WHOLE lot better....

 

[Exiled in Express]

$102 is the current opening price for MSP-CHI, low bucket or the absolute lowest regular fare you will find is $78. This fare is available 6 days in July mostly Tues/Weds. Airfare is typically $100 in each direction though there is a Southwest sale running currently that allows some dates to be traveled for less. And if you really want to save you can go out to the airport and buy a ticket on Spirit for $19.80.

Rail travel is a choice and a differentiated product. It is not always a choice that I make both due to high close in prices and scheduling. If you book early or in the offseason, it is an economical and enjoyable mode of transportation. The long term solution is more capacity, there is only one train running to Chicago yet there are ~30 daily flights.

 

[afigg]

There also a lot of people going to/from Williston and nearby stops due to the oil fracking pick up in the region.

The Bakken oil boom in North Dakota is part of the increase in demand for the EB. I read a report about oil workers coming off a work cycle, getting a room or seat on the EB to CHI or the nearest big city for a break, and with a fresh fat paycheck, they really don't care what it costs. The ridership numbers for Williston and some of the other stops in ND or MT are going to see a sharp increase when the FY12 station numbers are posted.

Because of the severe disruption from the floods last spring and summer, the EB passenger numbers will show a wildly varying FY11 to FY12 increase as the monthly report numbers are posted. To get a better comparison, we will have to go back to the FY10 numbers to see what the real growth trend is. Between the summer tourist season and the oil field workers, if Amtrak had the spare Superliner sleepers and coach cars, they could put them to good use on the EB for the summer season to collect that extra revenue.

The EB is Amtrak's most expensive LD train to run. Given the political pressure Amtrak is under to reduce operating losses, Amtrak has to charge what the market will bear for the top bucket prices.

 

[Eris]

A very quick check finds, for example, a $209 one-way fare from chicago to seattle on August 20. That same day you can get a non-stop flight for $195. That's not 50% higher. Sure, lots more people fly- taking the train is a different mode of transport than the magic of flying (4 hour flight and you arrive only two hours later than you left!).

For cost, for *me*, the train nearly always wins out (for traveling coach) because I travel with two children, who are half price on Amtrak but receive no price break on an airplane, so for me and two kids it's the same as two adults on Amtrak, vs 3 full fares to fly, which leaves a fair amount of breathing room for Amtrak's bucket pricing to push into airfare territory. Plus, we get to ride the train.

 

[Anderson]

There also a lot of people going to/from Williston and nearby stops due to the oil fracking pick up in the region.

The Bakken oil boom in North Dakota is part of the increase in demand for the EB. I read a report about oil workers coming off a work cycle, getting a room or seat on the EB to CHI or the nearest big city for a break, and with a fresh fat paycheck, they really don't care what it costs. The ridership numbers for Williston and some of the other stops in ND or MT are going to see a sharp increase when the FY12 station numbers are posted.

There is something about this narrative that feels like it fell out of a different era. Not that this is a bad thing, but it just feels a bit surreal in its own delightful way.

As to the point about the spare Superliners, my understanding is that Amtrak did the math and found that they could at least break even on the cost of adding an additional sleeper on the Builder, and that they might even be able to (in theory) add a fifth.

 

[user 1215]

Why is the EB the most expensive LD train to operate?

 

[TrainLoverJoy]

Is it more expensive to operate or just more in demand? I'm lucky enough to be able to choose when I take the EP for pleasure......Spring and Fall prices drop dramatically. (Some winter months also have price drops, but there's not enough daylight for my liking...don't want to waste any of the scenery going by in the dark.)

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

In nearly every comparison, coach fares on the Empire Builder are at least 50% higher than non-stop flights.

Remember, Amtrak gives "bottom line" pricing.

Where the airfares you used for comparison, including all the possible fees (checked bags, parking, TSA, airport, etc) and taxes?

Where you actually able to book a flight at the fare you used for comparison? I know an airline local to me, that advertises $80. However, there are only a couple of seats on each flight that they sell for $80. The rest are $120 and up.

 

[jebr]

In nearly every comparison, coach fares on the Empire Builder are at least 50% higher than non-stop flights.

Remember, Amtrak gives "bottom line" pricing.

Where the airfares you used for comparison, including all the possible fees (checked bags, parking, TSA, airport, etc) and taxes?

Where you actually able to book a flight at the fare you used for comparison? I know an airline local to me, that advertises $80. However, there are only a couple of seats on each flight that they sell for $80. The rest are $120 and up.

New laws require that airlines advertise their fares inclusive of all fees. So, for example, SW just had a fare sale where some tickets were $49. I bought two tickets on there (PIT to CHI, or PGH to CHI in Amtrak code) and the charge on my credit card was $97.60. That doesn't include parking, but I'm not parking there, so that is moot.

 

[afigg]

Is it more expensive to operate or just more in demand?

In the FY12 budget, the projected expense for operating the EB is $127.3 million, which is the highest of all the LD trains. The next most expensive are the other Chicago to west coast 2 night trains, the Southwest Chief at $110.6 million and the California Zephyr at $108.4 million. The EB, however, has the most passengers of all the LD trains with a budget projection of 534K passenger, but based on the ridership numbers for the first 7 months of the FY, it will exceed that. The EB projected loss per passenger is less than that of the CZ or SWC.

Why is the EB the most expensive? It splits into 2 trains at Spokane, has a long consist, has premium service amenities, is a long 2 day trip over a route that likely causes it to burn a lot of fuel. It also is the only train serving a long string of stations between Milwaukee and Seattle/Portland so it may carry a lot of overhead from those stations. A Chicago to Twin Cities corridor train with track improvements would help split the cost of the stations and staff over that portion of the route. The Performance Improvement Report for the EB is due this September, so that should provide insight into the cost breakdown for the EB.

 

[Rail Freak]

When Amtrak coach fares are 50%+ more expensive than a plane ticket, I would assume only rail fans or those with a real fear of flying would consider the train.

Personally, I feel a train ride is At Least 50% more enjoyable than a plane ride!

 

[shelzp]

If you price the travel per hour Amtrak is a far greater bargain. I don't consider it slow-I think of it as a great part of the trip.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In nearly every comparison, coach fares on the Empire Builder are at least 50% higher than non-stop flights.

Remember, Amtrak gives "bottom line" pricing.

Amtrak also has a rather unique tax exception, does it not?

Where you actually able to book a flight at the fare you used for comparison?

The Builder is nowhere near me, but over the course of dozens of SAS <> ELP trips Amtrak has almost always been more expensive than driving or flying in recent years, even with the huge increases in airfare.

I know an airline local to me, that advertises $80. However, there are only a couple of seats on each flight that they sell for $80. The rest are $120 and up.

I had no idea that Amtrak sold every seat for the same price instead of staggered bucket pricing like the airlines do.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If you price the travel per hour Amtrak is a far greater bargain. I don't consider it slow-I think of it as a great part of the trip.

Does your boss and/or coworkers and/or clients consider it slow?

 

[shelzp]

If you price the travel per hour Amtrak is a far greater bargain. I don't consider it slow-I think of it as a great part of the trip.

Does your boss and/or coworkers and/or clients consider it slow?

I sold my business when I was 50 years old and never looked back so I don't have clients and customers anymore. I guess I'm 'retired' but since I'm not of 'retirement age' I don't refer to it that way. I go where I want when I want.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I was pricing coach fares today from MSP to Seattle and also Chicago on the Empire Builder for some random dates in July and August. I was shocked at how expensive Amtrak has become and did a comparison with non-stop airfares. In nearly every comparison, coach fares on the Empire Builder are at least 50% higher than non-stop flights. For example, MSP-Seattle Empire Builder coach is at least $273 one-way and often over $300, while flights are available for $159 to $215 on the same dates. For MSP-Chicago, the lowest Empire Builder fare I saw was $102, while flights are available for $69 on the same dates. It makes me wonder if Amtrak is trying to see how high fares can go before people stop buying. When Amtrak coach fares are 50%+ more expensive than a plane ticket, I would assume only rail fans or those with a real fear of flying would consider the train. As it is, I think few people consider Amtrak as a practical mode of transportation to or from the Twin Cities.

1. The EB is still losing money despite those high fares.

2. The EB is still sold out regularly despite those high fares.

3. More train cars could lower fares a bit, but Amtrak does not have the money to buy those cars because they are losing money in the first place.

4. As others have said, the EB servesmuch more than MSP-SEA and MSP-CHI. Also, MSP is a DL hub so the DL fares should be really low.

(other than SW)

So, for example, SW just had a fare sale where some tickets were $49.

Guys, Southwest is not SW, they are WN! As far as WN goes, their fares are going up and up. Now they cost even more then DL sometimes.