Empire Builder Very High Fares

[AmtrakBlue]

I was pricing coach fares today from MSP to Seattle and also Chicago on the Empire Builder for some random dates in July and August. I was shocked at how expensive Amtrak has become and did a comparison with non-stop airfares. In nearly every comparison, coach fares on the Empire Builder are at least 50% higher than non-stop flights. For example, MSP-Seattle Empire Builder coach is at least $273 one-way and often over $300, while flights are available for $159 to $215 on the same dates. For MSP-Chicago, the lowest Empire Builder fare I saw was $102, while flights are available for $69 on the same dates. It makes me wonder if Amtrak is trying to see how high fares can go before people stop buying. When Amtrak coach fares are 50%+ more expensive than a plane ticket, I would assume only rail fans or those with a real fear of flying would consider the train. As it is, I think few people consider Amtrak as a practical mode of transportation to or from the Twin Cities.

1. The EB is still losing money despite those high fares.

2. The EB is still sold out regularly despite those high fares.

3. More train cars could lower fares a bit, but Amtrak does not have the money to buy those cars because they are losing money in the first place.

4. As others have said, the EB servesmuch more than MSP-SEA and MSP-CHI. Also, MSP is a DL hub so the DL fares should be really low.

(other than SW)

So, for example, SW just had a fare sale where some tickets were $49.

Guys, Southwest is not SW, they are WN! As far as WN goes, their fares are going up and up. Now they cost even more then DL sometimes.

Yes, I know SW is WN, but figured most readers would know what I was talking about. I wasn't using their "code", just an abbreviation of their name. I don't know who wrote "So, for example, SW just had a fare sale where some tickets were $49.", but I moved it out of the quote you had, because I didn't say that.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I sold my business when I was 50 years old and never looked back so I don't have clients and customers anymore. I guess I'm 'retired' but since I'm not of 'retirement age' I don't refer to it that way. I go where I want when I want.

Enjoy it while it lasts you crazy Baby Boomers. I'm part of Generation-401k. We're still allowed to "retire" so long as we promise to keep working. We'd complain but we don't want to risk ending up like Generation-Y-Bother or Generation-Zed. :lol:

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I don't know who wrote "So, for example, SW just had a fare sale where some tickets were $49.", but I moved it out of the quote you had, because I didn't say that.

You did not write the second line?! Sorry, I don't know what went wrong with the multi-quote.

 

[zephyr17]

I was pricing coach fares today from MSP to Seattle and also Chicago on the Empire Builder for some random dates in July and August. I was shocked at how expensive Amtrak has become and did a comparison with non-stop airfares. In nearly every comparison, coach fares on the Empire Builder are at least 50% higher than non-stop flights. For example, MSP-Seattle Empire Builder coach is at least $273 one-way and often over $300, while flights are available for $159 to $215 on the same dates. For MSP-Chicago, the lowest Empire Builder fare I saw was $102, while flights are available for $69 on the same dates. It makes me wonder if Amtrak is trying to see how high fares can go before people stop buying. When Amtrak coach fares are 50%+ more expensive than a plane ticket, I would assume only rail fans or those with a real fear of flying would consider the train. As it is, I think few people consider Amtrak as a practical mode of transportation to or from the Twin Cities.

The reason why the fares are so high is the trains are close to sold out, and the fares are moving to the higher buckets. And of course Amtrak is trying to get the highest fares possible, it is called yield management and why should they sell something for $100 when they can get $300 for it? And anyone who wants Amtrak to stay around should be cheering that they can get those fares.

The long distance trains in the summer mostly sell out and this late the prices are high.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The reason why the fares are so high is the trains are close to sold out, and the fares are moving to the higher buckets.

If that were the case then how come we don't see the prices rising from low bucket to high bucket as more and more seats are sold as we did in the past? Instead they seem to go from high to slightly higher and then sold out. Or at least that's what I appear to be seeing more and more these days.

And of course Amtrak is trying to get the highest fares possible, it is called yield management and why should they sell something for $100 when they can get $300 for it?

How high would it have to go before you'd say it was too much? Or is any price equally acceptable to you, even if it meant you were no longer able to participate? Many of the people I see claiming that any price is fine with them aren't paying anywhere near full price for their tickets. They're redeeming points from other sources and simply leaving that part out.

And anyone who wants Amtrak to stay around should be cheering that they can get those fares. The long distance trains in the summer mostly sell out and this late the prices are high.

Why would you expect us to cheer on ticket prices that preclude us from riding? It's one thing to be understanding or accepting of the current situation, but what is the point of cheering on the continued marginalization of the price-conscious passenger rail traveler? Food for thought anyway.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

The fact that the trains are running jam packed seems to disagree with your theory.

Trains are running "jam packed" simply because there are way too few trains across the country. If by a stroke of magic, all existing LD routes get 8-10 trains per day (10 Empire Builders, 10 California Zephyrs and so on) and still they run full then I'd be inclined to believe that a lot of people across the country are actually considering Amtrak as a practical means of transport. Like it or hate it, the OP is in a way right- outside of the corridor services, the western LD trains are more of a means to vacation and enjoy one's train-love rather than a practical mode of transport to go from city A to city B. Nothing wrong in it, just saying.

Chicago NY routes might be considered mainly transportation purpose trains.

 

[Ryan]

The reason why the fares are so high is the trains are close to sold out, and the fares are moving to the higher buckets.

If that were the case then how come we don't see the prices rising from low bucket to high bucket as more and more seats are sold as we did in the past? Instead they seem to go from high to slightly higher and then sold out. Or at least that's what I appear to be seeing more and more these days.

If they can sell all the seats at high to very high prices, there isn't really any reason to sell some of the seats at lower prices, no?

And of course Amtrak is trying to get the highest fares possible, it is called yield management and why should they sell something for $100 when they can get $300 for it?

How high would it have to go before you'd say it was too much? Or is any price equally acceptable to you, even if it meant you were no longer able to participate? Many of the people I see claiming that any price is fine with them aren't paying anywhere near full price for their tickets. They're redeeming points from other sources and simply leaving that part out.

I'd certainly qualify as one of those people, so I'm not sure how much my opinion counts, but the way I see it, the more revenue, the better chance there is at keeping the service we have, and possibly expanding it (by way of equipment purchases to allow some combination of longer trains, more routes, and more frequencies). More service means that there will be enough seats to sell some of them at reasonable prices.

And anyone who wants Amtrak to stay around should be cheering that they can get those fares. The long distance trains in the summer mostly sell out and this late the prices are high.

Why would you expect us to cheer on ticket prices that preclude us from riding? It's one thing to be understanding or accepting of the current situation, but what is the point of cheering on the continued marginalization of the price-conscious passenger rail traveler? Food for thought anyway.

Because increased revenue can lead to less operating subsidy $$$ from Congress and increased service.

 

[RRUserious]

ANOTHER bogus thread on plane vs. train. I just did an apples-apples comparison of a round trip. Take a look:

Nearly identical. Amtrak gives me a senior discount. I don't know if the airline does. But the POINT I'd make is that this is the CHEAPEST flight I found. This is not a consolidator flight. You can go on Priceline or some place like that that sells "remnants". But you give up ALL rights by paying that price. PLUS you haven't figured in the luggage nickel and dimeing.

So, when are these "geniuses" going to stop resurrecting this moribund issue? I've always said "If you love abuse, buy a cheap airline ticket. You deserve whatever they do to you."

 

[RRUserious]

Crap. I did a preview and it showed both images. Well, that was the Amtrak quote. Here is the airline quote:

 

[zephyr17]

The reason why the fares are so high is the trains are close to sold out, and the fares are moving to the higher buckets.

If that were the case then how come we don't see the prices rising from low bucket to high bucket as more and more seats are sold as we did in the past? Instead they seem to go from high to slightly higher and then sold out. Or at least that's what I appear to be seeing more and more these days.

And of course Amtrak is trying to get the highest fares possible, it is called yield management and why should they sell something for $100 when they can get $300 for it?

How high would it have to go before you'd say it was too much? Or is any price equally acceptable to you, even if it meant you were no longer able to participate? Many of the people I see claiming that any price is fine with them aren't paying anywhere near full price for their tickets. They're redeeming points from other sources and simply leaving that part out.

And anyone who wants Amtrak to stay around should be cheering that they can get those fares. The long distance trains in the summer mostly sell out and this late the prices are high.

Why would you expect us to cheer on ticket prices that preclude us from riding? It's one thing to be understanding or accepting of the current situation, but what is the point of cheering on the continued marginalization of the price-conscious passenger rail traveler? Food for thought anyway.

Simple, the prices are too high when there aren't enough buyers at that price. Already I am priced out of sleepers much of year and have to be careful when I ride. But if Amtrak can get those fares, more power to them.

I pay for my fares, don't have that many AGR points and only recently got the card, which, being on the West Coast, is the only way for me get enough points to be useful. So I bear the full brunt of the fares.

I'd rather ride in a Bedroom, am I entitled to that simply because I am breathing? No. And I can't afford it. Boo hoo for me.

I couldn't use Amtrak last Christmas because the fares were too high by the time I booked. Was I entitled to it anyway? No. I flew instead, and this year I booked earlier.

Its called a MARKET.

 

[Texan Eagle]

I've always said "If you love abuse, buy a cheap airline ticket. You deserve whatever they do to you."

And I've always said, some folks on this forum are misinformed plane-phobics. I like Amtrak and trains, no doubt about that, but I have not once experienced the horrors that some people here associate with air travel. I've flown domestic in Economy buying the cheapest ticket available over 20 times in the past two years and not once have I been abused or ill-treated or had to feel that I "deserve what they did to me". Sure there is no SSL and sit-down dining service on planes, but the whole flying experience isn't anything traumatic or disappointing. So please stop exaggerating.

 

[zephyr17]

I've always said "If you love abuse, buy a cheap airline ticket. You deserve whatever they do to you."

And I've always said, some folks on this forum are misinformed plane-phobics. I like Amtrak and trains, no doubt about that, but I have not once experienced the horrors that some people here associate with air travel. I've flown domestic in Economy buying the cheapest ticket available over 20 times in the past two years and not once have I been abused or ill-treated or had to feel that I "deserve what they did to me". Sure there is no SSL and sit-down dining service on planes, but the whole flying experience isn't anything traumatic or disappointing. So please stop exaggerating.

I haven't been abused or traumatized flying either. But guess what? It still sucked.

 

[rtabern]

Part of the deal with the CHI-MSP fare being higher this year is that Amtrak has been playing around with the fares on the Empire Builder this year in hopes of gaining more revenue. Here's the scoop. In past years, the CHI-MSP fare has started at the lowest price (which I think $53) bucket (YD)... and then has gone up as more people have booked. For example, YC, YB, and Y (which is like $125). It seems this year, Amtrak has started the Empire Builder CHI-MSP fares at the YC bucket of around $95-ish... and then if no one books, it goes down to YD or YC. Kinda the opposite practice.

 

[Ispolkom]

I've flown domestic in Economy buying the cheapest ticket available over 20 times in the past two years and not once have I been abused or ill-treated or had to feel that I "deserve what they did to me". Sure there is no SSL and sit-down dining service on planes, but the whole flying experience isn't anything traumatic or disappointing. So please stop exaggerating.

No, but here's the thing. I look at how procedures at airports have changed in the last 10 years and then I consider how much they have approved my security. It's not that I resent tight security. (Let me tell you, when you've been searched by a Turkish gendarme, you've been searched.) What I resent is being inconvenienced by bogus security theater and having to pretend with a straight face that it somehow is for my own good, because if you point out the idiocy of TSA procedures you are asked, "Do you want to fly today?" It's not the ill-treatment, it's the bull---- that I resent. If you don't have a long experience in air travel, though, it's all the same.

Obligatory on-topic content: Why are Empire Builder prices high? Mr. Supply, meet Ms. Demand. If the cost of air travel is different, it's because the supply and demand curves are different. If you don't want to pay the high prices, don't. Someone else will. The trains, in my experience, aren't running empty.

 

[RRUserious]

Amazing. I show that the fares over a common route are as near to equal as possible, and the conversation goes on as if the OP made a reasonable statement. Oh well who really expects these discussions to stick to facts, anyway. I take it as proven that the repeated claim of "flying cheaper" is BS. There's always fact selection to make the case, but you'd be crazy to make any financial decision based on that kind of guidance. I know full well what the travel costs are having made the trip enough times. I guess they are just trolling for ignorant people they can fool.

 

[jebr]

Amazing. I show that the fares over a common route are as near to equal as possible, and the conversation goes on as if the OP made a reasonable statement. Oh well who really expects these discussions to stick to facts, anyway. I take it as proven that the repeated claim of "flying cheaper" is BS. There's always fact selection to make the case, but you'd be crazy to make any financial decision based on that kind of guidance. I know full well what the travel costs are having made the trip enough times. I guess they are just trolling for ignorant people they can fool.

Comparing an Amtrak fare only available to seniors to a more expensive airline fare available to everyone is a little bit disingenuous. A fairer comparison would be without that discount...in which case the flight is about $75 cheaper. Also, with the MSP - SEA flight, it takes a lot less time to fly than to take the train, which is worth something to a lot of people.

That being said, I don't think Amtrak is trying to win the MSP - SEA market (or, really, any two large markets that far apart.) In terms of getting from point A to point B, a train is basically a comfortable but slow means of transport for most people. Thus, in order to win business, Amtrak must offer an advantage of some sort. They can be less expensive; however, on the EB, they often aren't in terms of major points (MSP, SEA, PDX, and CHI.) However...

1. They go between these major points and smaller towns all along the route, for a much cheaper fare than airlines offer (and, in many cases, commercial air travel is nonexistant.)

1a. People boarding in these small towns don't have to drive as far to board the train as they do to board a plane. That's a huge advantage.

2. Trains are much easier and less stressful to travel on than planes, in most cases. Fear of heights? Gone in a train. Cramped seating while stuck on a tarmac? Gone. (Yes, there are delays on trains, but you can walk around, and the seats are very comfortable.)

Thus, please don't start comparing Amtrak to airlines in large, faraway markets. That's not the market Amtrak is going after. They're going for either corridor-type service, or service to/from smaller towns along the route where airfare is expensive or nonexistant. I'll end with an anecdote, using the EB no less.

I have family that live near the Staples station. My grandfather wanted to go out to Washington state to see some family, and so we were looking at how he would get out there (an aunt of mine was going out with him.) With two people, flying for two people would have cost the same as a roomette for most of the route (we were booking a couple of weeks in advance), and Staples was a much closer drive than Fargo (even if it was an early morning.) They took the train out, and seem to be enjoying it (I'll ask them at a family reunion next month.)

Those are the people that Amtrak is marketing to, and who they should focus on with their LD trains. Not the MSP-SEA market that you're comparing.