Empire Builder vs Zephyr

[Linda T]

Oh guys, I need help! I'm planning what will likely by my last two zone trip (as my husband can't travel long distances). Last summer we took the SWC to LAX; then the CS to SEA; and then back to SAC and the CZ back to CHI. I started planning a two zone trip for 2013, but I am terribly torn. I want to get the most out of my points so this year I was thinking of doing the TE from CHI to LAX, then up the CS to SEA, then across on the EB. I've never been on the Eagle beyond SAS, and never on the EB at all.

But I see that the EB is almost a full day shorter than the Zephyr. I adore the Zephyr -- but I've heard such wonderful things about the EB. I don't mind delays as long as I can make my connections -- in fact, I rather prefer delays as long as they don't interfer with train travel (in other words no bustitutions or missing my roomettes ).

The views from the EB seem to more resemble the Grand Tetons, than the Wasatch Range. What I absolutely ADORE is being on the edge of the canyons and stuff, that's just way cool! I also love mountains, deserts, and some prairie, but prairie can get boring after a while. So, for those of you who know the two trains, what are your thoughts based upon what I just said, and based on your experience? I really don't want to wind up kicking myself if I miss the EB if the views are really that much better than the Zephyr, but I also hate to lose a whole day on the train. Of course daylight and darkness is important. I'd really like to see the mountains as much as possible. Thanks!

 

[Pat Harper]

Having been on the TE/SL already, I can tell you that you'll see plenty of desert unless you're going through there at night. And most of AZ, if not all will be during the night. When we got off in Maricopa, it was around midnight AZ time. That part didn't bother us because we had already seen the same desert already from I-10 a couple of times on previous trips.

We're about to embark on a 6-night trip, leaving from NOL on the CONO, then taking the EB in CHI. We've never been on that train, so I'm looking forward to some different scenery. We're supposedly taking the Cascades from Seattle to Portland, but that might change if the EB is late arriving in SEA. I hope not. I'd hate to be stranded in Seattle!

 

[Aaron]

But I see that the EB is almost a full day shorter than the Zephyr.

From Portland or Seattle to Chicago on the Empire Builder is only about 6 1/2 hours shorter than going EMY-CHI on the Zephyr. And at the rate the EB is going this summer, it's likely to be longer than the Zephyr.

 

[NW cannonball]

I've only ever ridden the EB to-from the West Coast. Half a dozen times in the last 20 years. Hope to do the southern routes sometime soon.

Eastbound the scenery you'll see by daylight (April-September) is -

20-30 miles along the shoreline of Puget Sound with views of the Olympic Peninsula mountains in the southwest distance and the islands in the near distance.

From Everett onwards a stretch of Snohomish river bottoms, then begin the climb up the Skykomish river valley to Stevens Pass -- this is a really good part for me - the trees change as the train climbs and crosses and re-crosses the river there are several thousand-foot waterfalls in sight - when you look down at the river again the sandbars aren't sandbars any more (it's a mountain river) they are piles of 2-foot boulders because anything smaller washes away in the spring floods. Climbing some more - a few really dizzying heights above the river - and the the tunnel (7 miles long) and you are on the east side of the Cascades (the dry side) where there's a bit more mountain terrain and as darkness falls you meet and follow the Columbia - Wenatchee rivers to - Wenatchee.

After this, a few hours transiting the high, dry part of eastern Washington in darkness to Spokane where there is a long stop in the wee hours to hitch up with the Portland section of the train (the trip from Portland along the Columbia gorge is also really scenic)

Sun comes up - oh around Whitefish - after which the train crosses the Rockies over Marias Pass -- There's a few places in there where you want to be looking out the north side of the train because the south side is just looking at a wall of rock and the south side looks out to a thousand-foot drop to the Flathead River - Yeah - those little shiny dots down there are automobiles and boat trailers of the people fishing in the Flathead.

The rest of the second day could be boring if you get bored with prairies easily because from Cut Bank to Grand Forks rolling prairie is all you will see - well it'll be dark again by Grand Forks - earlier than that - Minot. Hours and hours and miles and miles of rolling prairie.

(My daughter a couple years ago found and chatted with a couple of dead-heading train crew who knew and pointed out local wildlife - like "that herd of deer over in that stand of trees" or "bunch of antelope hanging out in that river bottom" )

For me, this is time to meet fellow travelers in the SSL and chat. There's lots of interesting people riding this stretch - Amish, military, Williston Basin boomers, Native Americans, Amtrak operations crew dead-heading home, transcontinental riders. Oh, and sometime the Border Patrol walks the train.

Sleep from Minot to Saint Cloud depending how late the train is. Just east of Saint Cloud the train passes the Minnesota Penitentiary -- a Gothic Classic prison with high granite walls with watchtowers on them. Scary.

Breakfast near MSP.

Next scenic stretch is along the upper Mississippi from Minneapolis to LaCrosse. I've done this as a day trip several times just to see the river and the bluffs and the American Eagles and the Great Blue Herons catching fish in Lake Pepin.

LaCrosse to Chicago is more boring prairie except for a few interesting rock formations near Wisconsin Dells. Well, it's boring to me because i've travelled that stretch many many times. But it's good for striking up conversations with fellow passengers - there's Amish again, and Chicagoans (a nearly alien species to me) and once I recall sharing a seat with a high school student from Chicago (recently from Oslo - his dad was some kind of expat techie working in Chicago) who took his winter break in LaCrosse and was amazed - totally amazed - how **#*( COLD it can get in Wisconsin in the winter.

Hope this long rambling information is useful to your planning.

(edit) Pat Harper - I hope you were kidding about being stranded in Seattle The only West Coast place I'd rather be stranded in is Portland (because of Powell's bookshop) or maybe SanFrancisco.

 

[Shanghai]

I took the Texas Eagle (422) from LAX to CHI last October. It was a long ride, but enjoyable.

Not much scenery, except if you like flat desert lands. I was in a bedroom in the last car on

the train which required one to walk through several coach cars and the sightseer lounge to

reach the diner. It was nice not having to disembark in SAS and reboard the TE. The best part

of the trip was meeting Jim Hudson in SAS and we had breakfast together on the trip to AUS where

he detrained. I hope you have an enjoyable trip on which ever route you choose.

 

[jb64]

Here are the main differences between EB and CZ, to me: The CZ has spectacular scenery concentrated between EMY and DEN. Otherwise, blah. EB has not quite spectacular but very beautiful scenery for most of the route and with a lot of variety. Heading east you hit Glacier in the morning (assuming not extremely late) which of course includes the beautiful Rocky mountains and then the landscape transitions in to beautiful prairies with stunning buttes. The prairies go on for sometime, but I like the high plains. Running along the Mississippi river I also think is very beautiful through Minnesota and Wisconsin and then coming into Chicago is pretty with the pretty suburbs and the city skyline.

If I had to pick one to be my favorite: EB.

Hope you have a great trip.

 

[Linda T]

But I see that the EB is almost a full day shorter than the Zephyr.

From Portland or Seattle to Chicago on the Empire Builder is only about 6 1/2 hours shorter than going EMY-CHI on the Zephyr. And at the rate the EB is going this summer, it's likely to be longer than the Zephyr.

True, but I'm talking about going from LAX up to SEA, which means to take the CZ back, I have to take the CS back to SAC (which adds about 21 hours). I wasn't thinking about that initially either, which is why the EB seemed like a logical choice.

SEA to CHI (and I'm gonna round off the minutes) going EB = 46 hours the CS/CZ route is 71 hours. This is why I'm so torn, my initial goal (and it still is), is to take the EB at some point. I've heard some people say that the scenery is actually better on the EB than on the CZ. What I'm most interested in is, is it really that much better when I'm already taking the CS? I know it's all in the eye of the beholder, and all, but as I've said before my husband has Mal de Debarquement and can't travel long distances. We can still take the train for short distances, less than two days seems to be okay, so I hate to use up all the AGR points on LD trips for me. Our last year's trip SWC, CS, CZ was supposed to be our once in a lifetime Amtrak trip, and here I am eagerly looking into another.

The point is, no matter what I chose they're both wonderful trains with spectacular scenery... I used to have a map that showed daytime and nighttime routes, but can no longer find it. Anyone know of an online map like that? Thanks again.

 

[Linda T]

Okay, so it's sounding like I should continue my initial plan of taking the EB. Does it get on the edge of the mountainsides like the Zephyr? What about hairpin curves, etc?

NW Cannonball, that was EXACTLY the kind of info I was looking for.

As far as being stranded, I know it can happen; but all my connections should be guaranteed -- the Late Shore Limited (pun intended), 5 hour layover in CHI to Eagle; Eagle 5 hour layover in LAX to the CS, overnight in SEA (like last year), EB back to CHI. If I'm late into CHI I don't care. Again as long as it doesn't result in bustitutions or anything where I have to get off and take another form of transportation. I'm in a sleeper on this trip, so the longer I'm on board the better.

 

[amamba]

The EB has been very late this summer, often missing the connection with the LSL in CHI. Just one thing to keep in mind. If you can schedule your trip with an overnight in CHI, that would be best, then you wouldn't have to worry about missing the LSL.

 

[Linda T]

The EB has been very late this summer, often missing the connection with the LSL in CHI. Just one thing to keep in mind. If you can schedule your trip with an overnight in CHI, that would be best, then you wouldn't have to worry about missing the LSL.

True, but last year when our Zephyr missed the Cardinal we got two nights in CHI, food vouchers, and taxi fare all on Amtrak for missing out connection. As I said, I'm planning this right now for 2013, so anything can happen between now and then. I'm sorta thinking about September, when things start to cool off, but no snow to really speak of yet. If I can work it out I'm hoping that I can actually catch the Cardinal back home. I noticed if I plan my days carefully enough I can do that. It's tough though with a three day a week train [Eagle to LAX, and Card to CIN] on both ends of the trip. That's why I have to carefully plan this out in advance, and then be prepared to jump on it as soon as the days become available.

But that's another question, and now it goes under the AGR forum, I know, but how many layovers is one allowed on a two zone trip before they have to pay for a seperate ticket? I was thinking only one, which would be SEA, right or wrong? I don't always trust what 1-800-USA-RAIL has to say. hboy:

 

[Bob Dylan]

:hi: Nice to have such good choices! All the Routes are good but a couple are a little more equal than the others! (CS/CZ as was said!) Since youve been on the CZ, how about taking the EB from CHI-PDX, this will give you the Columbia River into PDX and Glacier Park with same day connections to LAX! Since you say yall want to break up the ttrip, do an overnight in LAX and take the Sunset/TE#422 from LAX-CHI (remember it only runs 3 days a week!)or if they allow it (you never know with AGR???) the Sunset from Lax-NOL, spend a Night, then the CONO to CHI.(they allowed me to do this a couple of years ago as a 2 Zone Award!)

Of course you want to Maximize the use of your Points, so CHI-LAX is a 2 Zone Award via PDX, LAX-CHI is a Two Zone Award also. If you have the AGR MC thats 19,000 points each way for a Total of 38,000 Points, not bad for 6 Nights of Travel with meals for 2 folks! If you have enough Points for Bedrooms (and can get one???) of course its more, but still what a deal! Except for the Part from Glacier Park to SEA and PDX the EB doesnt hold a candle to the CZ, and as was said the Sunset/TE is mostly Desert but still some interesting stuff to see, and its usually a Train with good OBS,OTP and Food in the Diner, and with ther new schedule it's easier to make your connections! Sounds like a Win!Win! situation to me, hope your hubby does OK and is able to Travel with you, those that Travel together via Train tend to have more fun!

 

[Linda T]

:hi: Nice to have such good choices! All the Routes are good but a couple are a little more equal than the others! (CS/CZ as was said!) Since youve been on the CZ, how about taking the EB from CHI-PDX, this will give you the Columbia River into PDX and Glacier Park with same day connections to LAX! Since you say yall want to break up the ttrip, do an overnight in LAX and take the Sunset/TE#422 from LAX-CHI (remember it only runs 3 days a week!)or if they allow it (you never know with AGR???) the Sunset from Lax-NOL, spend a Night, then the CONO to CHI.(they allowed me to do this a couple of years ago as a 2 Zone Award!)

Of course you want to Maximize the use of your Points, so CHI-LAX is a 2 Zone Award via PDX, LAX-CHI is a Two Zone Award also. If you have the AGR MC thats 19,000 points each way for a Total of 38,000 Points, not bad for 6 Nights of Travel with meals for 2 folks! If you have enough Points for Bedrooms (and can get one???) of course its more, but still what a deal! Except for the Part from Glacier Park to SEA and PDX the EB doesnt hold a candle to the CZ, and as was said the Sunset/TE is mostly Desert but still some interesting stuff to see, and its usually a Train with good OBS,OTP and Food in the Diner, and with ther new schedule it's easier to make your connections! Sounds like a Win!Win! situation to me, hope your hubby does OK and is able to Travel with you, those that Travel together via Train tend to have more fun!

No my husband isn't going to risk that long of a trip, so I'm a loner on this one. But does one get a discount with AGR points if they have the MC? I have one, but never got a discount, just figured this one would be 40,000. I'd love an overnight in NOL, I'll talk to them about it.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Yes, with the AGR MC you should get a 5% Rebate on your Awards so 20,000 will be charged for a 2 Zone Award and 1,000 showed on your Account as a rebate! This has been True for awhile, it was even 10% @ one time! Not sure if theyll credit you retroactively for Rebate Points on previous Awards, wouldnt hurt to call up your Account and Call and see, you might get Lucky!! :unsure:

As for spending the night, LAX seems like a good place, you can stay @ the Metro Plaza across the street from Union Station and eat @ Phillipes! :wub: Sorry your hubby cant Travel Long Distances, we take for granted our Health till something happens!(I just got over Shingles, not good to have! ) Since youre going by yourself you might want to consider my plan, its doubtful if theyll give you NOL as a 2 Zone Option, you might have to just ride #422 from LAX-CHI! You cant go wrong here, I fixing to to do my Annual California Dreaming and Freeloading Trip so will be on the TE/CS and CZ myself in 2 weeks!

 

[the_traveler]

As Jim said, it posts to your AGR account as 20K or whatever, and right above that there be an entry (in this case) of 1,000 stating "rebate" (for the 5% for having the AGR MC)!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Here are the main differences between EB and CZ, to me: The CZ has spectacular scenery concentrated between EMY and DEN. Otherwise, blah. EB has not quite spectacular but very beautiful scenery for most of the route and with a lot of variety. Heading east you hit Glacier in the morning (assuming not extremely late) which of course includes the beautiful Rocky mountains and then the landscape transitions in to beautiful prairies with stunning buttes. The prairies go on for sometime, but I like the high plains. Running along the Mississippi river I also think is very beautiful through Minnesota and Wisconsin and then coming into Chicago is pretty with the pretty suburbs and the city skyline.

If I had to pick one to be my favorite: EB.

Hope you have a great trip.

Mine too! I really like the plains, the corn fields on the CZ just don't compare.

Take the EB, especially since you've never taken it before.

 

[NW cannonball]

Here are the main differences between EB and CZ, to me: The CZ has spectacular scenery concentrated between EMY and DEN. Otherwise, blah. EB has not quite spectacular but very beautiful scenery for most of the route and with a lot of variety. Heading east you hit Glacier in the morning (assuming not extremely late) which of course includes the beautiful Rocky mountains and then the landscape transitions in to beautiful prairies with stunning buttes. The prairies go on for sometime, but I like the high plains. Running along the Mississippi river I also think is very beautiful through Minnesota and Wisconsin and then coming into Chicago is pretty with the pretty suburbs and the city skyline.

If I had to pick one to be my favorite: EB.

Hope you have a great trip.

Mine too! I really like the plains, the corn fields on the CZ just don't compare.

Take the EB, especially since you've never taken it before.

I've been following this thread to learn about the CZ route -- as I posted earlier the EB is all that I know. Would it make sense to do a late fall or winter trip flying MSP-DEN and then taking the CZ the rest of the way west?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Here are the main differences between EB and CZ, to me: The CZ has spectacular scenery concentrated between EMY and DEN. Otherwise, blah. EB has not quite spectacular but very beautiful scenery for most of the route and with a lot of variety. Heading east you hit Glacier in the morning (assuming not extremely late) which of course includes the beautiful Rocky mountains and then the landscape transitions in to beautiful prairies with stunning buttes. The prairies go on for sometime, but I like the high plains. Running along the Mississippi river I also think is very beautiful through Minnesota and Wisconsin and then coming into Chicago is pretty with the pretty suburbs and the city skyline.

If I had to pick one to be my favorite: EB.

Hope you have a great trip.

Mine too! I really like the plains, the corn fields on the CZ just don't compare.

Take the EB, especially since you've never taken it before.

I've been following this thread to learn about the CZ route -- as I posted earlier the EB is all that I know. Would it make sense to do a late fall or winter trip flying MSP-DEN and then taking the CZ the rest of the way west?

There would probably be too many delays caused by poor weather like snow drifts, avalanches, rockslides, etc., not to mention the always present freight train delays. Though it might be cool if you actually did it. So, yes, it makes sense, but just be prepared.

The CS is also great in winter, don't know if you've done it.

 

[Rail Freak]

Here are the main differences between EB and CZ, to me: The CZ has spectacular scenery concentrated between EMY and DEN. Otherwise, blah. EB has not quite spectacular but very beautiful scenery for most of the route and with a lot of variety. Heading east you hit Glacier in the morning (assuming not extremely late) which of course includes the beautiful Rocky mountains and then the landscape transitions in to beautiful prairies with stunning buttes. The prairies go on for sometime, but I like the high plains. Running along the Mississippi river I also think is very beautiful through Minnesota and Wisconsin and then coming into Chicago is pretty with the pretty suburbs and the city skyline.

If I had to pick one to be my favorite: EB.

Hope you have a great trip.

Mine too! I really like the plains, the corn fields on the CZ just don't compare.

Take the EB, especially since you've never taken it before.

I've been following this thread to learn about the CZ route -- as I posted earlier the EB is all that I know. Would it make sense to do a late fall or winter trip flying MSP-DEN and then taking the CZ the rest of the way west?

Last year I flew to Denver in February to do, what I call, my Snow Trip! (DEN-EMY-PDX-CHI-WAS-STP) WOW :blink: :hi: I'm thinking of doing it again in 2013!!!!

 

[TimePeace]

I've taken the EB and the CZ both ways. I much preferred the scenery on the CZ, including the "boring cornfields".

The EB was beautiful though, I went into Portland, and the Columbia River Valley on the way there was lovely. A plus was having a sleeper in the last car on the train which gave me that rear-window view the whole way.

If it were me, and none of the other considerations of connections etc made the choice for me, I'd flip a coin. Or, if you have never done the EB, take it to have the experience, then come back here and tell us which one you like best.

 

[August West]

I've taken the EB and the CZ both ways. I much preferred the scenery on the CZ, including the "boring cornfields".

The EB was beautiful though, I went into Portland, and the Columbia River Valley on the way there was lovely. A plus was having a sleeper in the last car on the train which gave me that rear-window view the whole way.

If it were me, and none of the other considerations of connections etc made the choice for me, I'd flip a coin. Or, if you have never done the EB, take it to have the experience, then come back here and tell us which one you like best.

I'm glad you "much preferred the scenery on the CZ, including the "boring cornfields"" because I too was trying to decide between the CZ and EB. I just booked the CZ for my wife and I in late October. After reading this thread I was beginning to doubt my choice. I know they are both beautiful.

I'm not using reward points and although I would pay for the LAX-SEA CS (it was $500+ with sleeper then another $750 for the SEA-CHI EB with sleeper) in the end it was the LAX departure time that swung me. I want to get out of LA on Sunday so am overnighting in SanLuisObispo and joining the CS to EMY the following day. Arriving at 10pm and departing at 9am from EMY I don't have to worry about the CS being delayed either. It was $70 coach for the six hour ride from SLO-EMY and $560 for the CZ sleeper. Two nights on the CZ just made more sense than one night on the CS for roughly the same price. On the CZ we are in car 0631 room 007...Can someone please tell me if we are upstairs, by chance?

 

[johnny.menhennet]

From your description of the scenery you like, then the CZ couldn't be more perfect. I definitely don't know where else you get deserts, hanging off cliffs, and so much more

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I've taken the EB and the CZ both ways. I much preferred the scenery on the CZ, including the "boring cornfields".

The EB was beautiful though, I went into Portland, and the Columbia River Valley on the way there was lovely. A plus was having a sleeper in the last car on the train which gave me that rear-window view the whole way.

If it were me, and none of the other considerations of connections etc made the choice for me, I'd flip a coin. Or, if you have never done the EB, take it to have the experience, then come back here and tell us which one you like best.

I'm glad you "much preferred the scenery on the CZ, including the "boring cornfields"" because I too was trying to decide between the CZ and EB. I just booked the CZ for my wife and I in late October. After reading this thread I was beginning to doubt my choice. I know they are both beautiful.

I'm not using reward points and although I would pay for the LAX-SEA CS (it was $500+ with sleeper then another $750 for the SEA-CHI EB with sleeper) in the end it was the LAX departure time that swung me. I want to get out of LA on Sunday so am overnighting in SanLuisObispo and joining the CS to EMY the following day. Arriving at 10pm and departing at 9am from EMY I don't have to worry about the CS being delayed either. It was $70 coach for the six hour ride from SLO-EMY and $560 for the CZ sleeper. Two nights on the CZ just made more sense than one night on the CS for roughly the same price. On the CZ we are in car 0631 room 007...Can someone please tell me if we are upstairs, by chance?

If Maine Rider was quoting me, I did not say that the corn fields are boring. I just said that the plains are more interesting because they have less people.

 

[AlanB]

Two nights on the CZ just made more sense than one night on the CS for roughly the same price. On the CZ we are in car 0631 room 007...Can someone please tell me if we are upstairs, by chance?

That room is indeed upstairs.

You can view the layout of the car here; second diagram down.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Rooms 1-10 are upstairs.

 

[Donna]

Is there a difference in the age and the sleeper accommodations between the CZ and the EB?