European Overnight Trains

[Northwestern]

I have an interest in the European overnight trains, such as the Railjet train.

https://is.gd/0l4XJL
Another one, coming this summer, will be the "Flight Shame" train, Brussels to Prague:

https://is.gd/nKQ4MP
Do you think the US might ever see an overnight train like the ones sprouting up in Europe? What routes would be feasible?

Richard

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

https://www.europeansleeper.eu
https://www.midnight-trains.com

 

[GAT]

I love the idea of overnight trains. I don’t know enough to comment on possible US routes, but it would be great if we had a good system.

I seriously considered taking a night train in Europe in 2019. I arrived in Paris to learn my host’s return from Africa had been delayed seven days. Rather than stay in a hotel in Paris, a city I know well, I decided to visit Tuscany for the first time. I particularly wanted to go to Montalcino, home of the famous Brunello wines. I considered taking Thello Paris – Florence, but decided I wanted to see all the countryside, so opted for TGV to Milan, transferring to Trenitalia high speed train to Florence. (Then I boarded a local train back to Sienna where I stayed the night before taking two local buses down to Montalcino.)

Now, having seen the countryside. I really want to try the Thello the next time. The article you posted says it has earned mixed reviews, but that's OK with me. I just want the experience.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Pretty sure Thello is dead. The night trains were converted to a day train, which has not survived the pandemic.

https://www.seat61.com/thello-train-from-paris-to-italy.htm

 

[GAT]

Drat! COVID strikes again. Thanks for the info.

 

[MARC Rider]

I think there was a previous discussion here, which I can't find, on potential overnight or "hotel" trains in the US, on the order of the NEC 65-66-67. You're looking at an 8-10 hour travel time. Maybe some shorter routes would be viable with a set-out sleeper or a very slowed-down schedule.

Here's my latest list.

1. Set-out sleeper in New York for NER 65-66-67. And if they're not going to sell sleeper tickets to Virginia points, it should be a set-out in Washington.
1a. New York - Buffalo
2. Washington - Atlanta
3. Pittsburgh - New York; also, Pittsburgh to Washington
4. New York -Montreal (plus a section that goes to Burlington, VT)
5. Chicago -Kansas City via St. Louis (with a set-out sleeper to/from St. Louis)
6. Chicago - St. Paul
7. Los Angeles - Oakland -Sacramento
8. Los Angeles - Phoenix - Tucson

I'm sure there are more possibilities. Some may not be practical (yet).

 

[GAT]

I had thought of LA - Oakland/Sacramento, but discounted it because of the hoped-for completion of the high speed train.

 

[Willbridge]

I think there was a previous discussion here, which I can't find, on potential overnight or "hotel" trains in the US, on the order of the NEC 65-66-67. You're looking at an 8-10 hour travel time. Maybe some shorter routes would be viable with a set-out sleeper or a very slowed-down schedule.

Here's my latest list.

1. Set-out sleeper in New York for NER 65-66-67. And if they're not going to sell sleeper tickets to Virginia points, it should be a set-out in Washington.
1a. New York - Buffalo
2. Washington - Atlanta
3. Pittsburgh - New York; also, Pittsburgh to Washington
4. New York -Montreal (plus a section that goes to Burlington, VT)
5. Chicago -Kansas City via St. Louis (with a set-out sleeper to/from St. Louis)
6. Chicago - St. Paul
7. Los Angeles - Oakland -Sacramento
8. Los Angeles - Phoenix - Tucson

I'm sure there are more possibilities. Some may not be practical (yet).

Amtrak has run the NYP set-out sleeper and CHI<>MSP overnight service. I used the latter on a round-trip and it was handy. The wife of my boss used the set-out sleeper and found it solved a problem of a "first-thing" appointment in Manhattan.
I don't think that either of these was well-known in their market and the equipment was Heritage fleet on the MSP run.

 

[Thogo]

As a European, I know we have these night trains, but to be honest, I have never used any, and probably never will. I want to see countryside if travelling by train, no matter if I know the line already, or not. There was (until Covid) a weekly night train Paris-Moscow which was for a while the only night train stopping in my city. However, with high-speed trains everywhere in Europe there simply is not much need for overnight trains or sleepers. America is another story. First, the larger population centers are much further apart than in Europe (except for the NEC, maybe). That disables the possibility of a nationwide high-speed network, and enables on the other hand the need for sleeping car trains. The problem is, with the Amtrak schedule (let's take the pre-covid one), there is only one train on most long-distance routes. So there are always a lot of communities where the train stops in the middle of the night at totally inconvenient times. Use Cleveland, as the best worst example, maybe. Then there are large population centers that see just 3 trains a week each way. El Paso, Houston, Cincinnati, Indianapolis! That's pathetic. Period. To stay in the Sunset Limited and Cardinal corridors, there are the large cities like Columbus, Dayton, Phoenix, Brownsville/McAllen, etc. that don't even have any train service. So... Before thinking about night trains, one should seriously think about daytime trains first.

 

[jiml]

Those who can read French and are interested in a detailed account of the current Euro overnight trains should check out AU's favorite reviewer Simply Railway's new book:
Trains de nuit: 30 trajets inoubliables en Europe: Constant, Thibault: 9782742463398: Amazon.com: Books

He's hoping to have the English translation out early this year if there is a demand.

 

[MARC Rider]

I had thought of LA - Oakland/Sacramento, but discounted it because of the hoped-for completion of the high speed train.

Even with a high-speed rail system, there would still be a market for the service, just as 65-66-67 runs between Boston and Washington alongside the Acelas.

 

[GAT]

Point taken, although the NEC has, I think, many more people and many more interim destinations (i.e. more demand) than on the California high speed route (IF it ever gets completed).

 

[Northwestern]

I like the idea of an overnight train between Washington and Atlanta. I quite agree with the need to expand a 3X/week service, such as the Cardinal, to a daily train. Would an overnight train, on Cardinal route, from NY to Chicago work?

I've read some comments, on other forums, about an overnight train between LA-SF-SAC. We once had such, the Owl, Lark, and short-lived Spirit of Calif. That might work. Some have suggested, however, that the overnight train from LA to SF or SAC could connect with a day train along the Coast Starlight route, to Portland and Seattle. Living in the North Bay area, and speaking from a purely selfish standpoint, I would miss the present (Coast Starlight) overnight train to Oregon. A possible glimpse of Mr. Shasta in the early morning, as well as the trip through the lower Cascades in the morning. Also, a daylight train starting the SF or SAC would be a long trip in coach, too long a coach trip for me.

Possibly the best choice for an European-like overnight train would be along the 3 east-west long distance train routes, the Builder, Calif Zephyr, and SW Chief.

Richard

 

[jis]

Possibly the best choice for an European-like overnight train would be along the 3 east-west long distance train routes, the Builder, Calif Zephyr, and SW Chief.

Richard

Most West European overnight trains are one nighters, a completely different breed from the American trans continentals. Those are more like East European and Russian overnight trains.

 

[Willbridge]

I like the idea of an overnight train between Washington and Atlanta. I quite agree with the need to expand a 3X/week service, such as the Cardinal, to a daily train. Would an overnight train, on Cardinal route, from NY to Chicago work?

I've read some comments, on other forums, about an overnight train between LA-SF-SAC. We once had such, the Owl, Lark, and short-lived Spirit of Calif. That might work. Some have suggested, however, that the overnight train from LA to SF or SAC could connect with a day train along the Coast Starlight route, to Portland and Seattle. Living in the North Bay area, and speaking from a purely selfish standpoint, I would miss the present (Coast Starlight) overnight train to Oregon. A possible glimpse of Mr. Shasta in the early morning, as well as the trip through the lower Cascades in the morning. Also, a daylight train starting the SF or SAC would be a long trip in coach, too long a coach trip for me.

Possibly the best choice for an European-like overnight train would be along the 3 east-west long distance train routes, the Builder, Calif Zephyr, and SW Chief.

Richard

As a matter of fact, the former Shasta Daylight ran between Portland and Oakland as a coach and parlor car train. It was popular during the longer summer days, but the overnight Cascade did better on a year-round basis. The overnight train had better connections at both terminals. For Shasta Daylight Los Angeles connections there was a transfer at Martinez with the Owl, overnight through the San Joaquin Valley.

As in Europe, there are some places where an overnight train makes sense. I used them in Europe on trips where the fast daytime trains created the same miserable early morning departures as air schedules. As in the WAS<>NYP<>BOS case they add to the convenience of the fast daytime corridor service.

 

[user 1215]

I may have found one overnight train in Europe that is actually NOT as nice as Amtrak's LD trains.

The Last SOVIET Train in Europe: Braving Moldova's PRIETENIA Train - YouTube

 

[Exvalley]

As a European, I know we have these night trains, but to be honest, I have never used any, and probably never will. I want to see countryside if travelling by train, no matter if I know the line already, or not.

I take the opposite approach. An overnight train does two things for me:
1) It saves on a night in a hotel.
2) It allows me to travel when I am sleeping, which means that my daytimes can be used fully for sightseeing. When you have precious few vacation days, it's nice not to have to lose a day or two due to travel.

 

[PeeweeTM]

I'm totally with Thogo.
And I totally understand Exvalley.

There should be trains enough to provide service to both types of costumers.

 

[daybeers]

There should be trains enough to provide service to both types of costumers.

100%!!

 

[MARC Rider]

I may have found one overnight train in Europe that is actually NOT as nice as Amtrak's LD trains.

The Last SOVIET Train in Europe: Braving Moldova's PRIETENIA Train - YouTube

Funny, Bucharest doesn't look to be much worse shape than New York, circa 1975. It seems they've even imported graffiti artists from New York to tag the various walls and such. The globalization of culture is now everywhere!

 

[jis]

I don't know how it is now, but graffiti in Paris used to be quite spectacular, as also was the case in Moscow in the early post Soviet years. Berlin also had some quality ones.

My introduction to quality Russian graffiti was from the Leo Tolstoy, a very nice overnight service from Helsinki to Moscow, which happened to be held near the Ostenkino TV Tower to allow a late running Krasnaya Strela (Red Star) from St. Petersburg to overtake us and arrive in Leningradsii ahead of us. And there on the walls of the Ostenkino compund were beautiful graffiti artwork.

 

[Exvalley]

I don't know how it is now, but graffiti in Paris used to be quite spectacular, as also was the case in Moscow in the early post Soviet years. Berlin also had some quality ones.

And don't forget Rome. It's everywhere there.

 

[Willbridge]

It used to be political. When my veterans' group goes back to Berlin, someone always waxes nostalgic for the days when graffiti just spelled right out what it meant (sometimes what the artist thought of us).

 

[slasher-fun]

Pretty sure Thello is dead. The night trains were converted to a day train, which has not survived the pandemic.

Not exactly (but that doesn't change the outcome): Thello was operating a night train, Paris-Milan-Venice, and a non-high-speed daytime train, Marseille-Nice-Milan. Both have been discontinued, and Thello has been renamed Trenitalia France (Trentalia has been their sole owner since 2016). They now operate Frecciarossa high-speed trains, 2x daily Paris-Lyon-Milan, plus soon additionnally 3x daily Paris-Lyon.

 

[slasher-fun]

For those who'd like, Europe : Night Trains has an up-to-date map of night trains in Europe (only solid lines are night trains, dashed lines are daytime)
http://www.night-trains.com/files/night-trains-europe-map.png