Flynn on Amtrak

[jiml]

I completely agree. To me, the Viewliner II sleepers are perfect, it's using the same design but with a much-needed facelift. I wish we could just renovate the Superliners to match the Viewliner II's, maybe without the sink.

Even most Euro sleepers that do not include in-room toilets have sinks. This avoids occupying the few bathrooms for simple tasks like hand-washing or shaving. I would not be an advocate of removing that capability.

 

[jiml]

Possibly an intermediate step to replacing the superliners would be a complete overhaul of the interior along with the toilets, showers and hvac systems. This could be done at beach grove.

I think you've mentioned this before (or at least someone has) and it makes total sense. There is nothing wrong with the cars themselves; they're based on a design (Budd stainless steel) that has lasted way longer on other railroads with refurbishment (VIA, Australia, tourist roads) and Amtrak could buy themselves up to 10 years this way.

 

[me_little_me]

Misleading thread title. I thought I was going to be reading that Flynn actually rode on one of his long distance trains and ate one of the "flex" meals.

Fat chance.

 

[Cal]

I think you've mentioned this before (or at least someone has) and it makes total sense. There is nothing wrong with the cars themselves; they're based on a design (Budd stainless steel) that has lasted way longer on other railroads with refurbishment (VIA, Australia, tourist roads) and Amtrak could buy themselves up to 10 years this way.

I have mentioned it ;D

Even most Euro sleepers that do not include in-room toilets have sinks. This avoids occupying the few bathrooms for simple tasks like hand-washing or shaving. I would not be an advocate of removing that capability.

I know, but that would require a bit of changing the plumbing in the superliners, and I don't love how it makes the other seat thinner. So I would be OK without it

 

[Cal]

Do you think that the Viewliner II sleepers are up to par with European sleepers? Or still a bit worse

 

[toddinde]

This is always an interesting discussion. I rode Slumbercoaches when I was young, and liked them. I think the concept is a tad dated. I’ve ridden sections which are just Superliner/Viewliner roomettes without walls. I’ve traveled throughout Europe in couchettes. The fundamental problem I think is that there are two totally different interests at work here. Some people want to be walled off from the masses in their own room, and some people just want to lie flat and don’t care. I don’t think there is a profitable market for a discount sleeper product. I think the sleeper product should be upscale. I see nothing inherently wrong with the current offerings although the European night trains should be studied. CN had an intermediate coach product called day/nighters which were leg rest coaches. Perhaps an upscale coach product would be an idea. But the slumbercoach is a neat museum piece in my view, nothing else.

 

[toddinde]

I wasn’t suggesting converting them to all coach. Rather, I suggested they modify them to still carry baggage, like baggage-dorms, but install some coach seating. In the past they were referred to as combines.

Many of the pre Amtrak trains did this as does Amtrak. Modification to include coach seating would be a lot easier than retro fitting as bag-dorms and would gain some much needed revenue with the increased coach capacity.

Just order more cars. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

 

[toddinde]

Sleeper option for peasants and the budget conscious. Trans-Siberian style.

That will have as much appeal to the American consumer as New Coke.

 

[toddinde]

Some of us here would like to see the return of the Slumbercoach concept. It offered a private accomodation + a surcharge over the coach fare. Not as comfortable as a roomette, but,it was passable, IMO.

Too small. Claustrophobic. And all it does is take people who would have bought a roomette and let them save a few bucks, but have a worse experience. I think they’re a loser, but that’s my opinion, and that doesn’t mean I’m right.

 

[TC_NYC]

That will have as much appeal to the American consumer as New Coke.

But what has wide appeal for consumers forking over $5,000 for people traveling to Europe in Business Class is a product like this. Amtrak should install these seats into Amfleets and sell it as a "business class" in between the huge price gap between Sleepers and Coach.

 

[fdaley]

I covered a lot of miles in Slumbercoach rooms in my 20s and loved them. In those days, my travel budgets were a lot leaner, so in most cases if they hadn't been available, I likely would have ridden in coach rather than upgrading to a roomette, which usually was at least twice the price. Or I would have traveled less often.

At 50-something now, I don't think I would love riding in them anymore. But I do think that, particularly on the eastern, one-night routes, there's still a segment of people by age/economic status that would be willing to pay an extra $100 to $150 for an accommodation that lets them lie down flat -- but who wouldn't spring for an extra $300 or $400 for a roomette.

That said, I don't think designing a new economy sleeper is nearly as high a priority as replacing/rehabbing and expanding the existing fleet and car types to maintain and grow the current route network -- and especially to support development of more short-haul corridors.

 

[jiml]

But the slumbercoach is a neat museum piece in my view, nothing else.

That's really the argument in a "nutshell". All us older folks who remember "how things used to be" want certain aspects restored, but slumbercoaches aren't on my list. They were fine for the time, but I suspect they wouldn't be around today solely on current egress requirements before even getting to their other issues. Some sort of lay-flat seat as an upgrade to coach (overnight business class?) is a great idea and the first place to add it is the newly restored overnight service on the NEC.

 

[Steve4031]

I think you've mentioned this before (or at least someone has) and it makes total sense. There is nothing wrong with the cars themselves; they're based on a design (Budd stainless steel) that has lasted way longer on other railroads with refurbishment (VIA, Australia, tourist roads) and Amtrak could buy themselves up to 10 years this way.

I did mention it. Probably others too.

There was a question comparing viewliner sleepers to European sleepers. I find Amtrak’s to be superior.

 

[sttom]

This is always an interesting discussion. I rode Slumbercoaches when I was young, and liked them. I think the concept is a tad dated. I’ve ridden sections which are just Superliner/Viewliner roomettes without walls. I’ve traveled throughout Europe in couchettes. The fundamental problem I think is that there are two totally different interests at work here. Some people want to be walled off from the masses in their own room, and some people just want to lie flat and don’t care. I don’t think there is a profitable market for a discount sleeper product. I think the sleeper product should be upscale. I see nothing inherently wrong with the current offerings although the European night trains should be studied. CN had an intermediate coach product called day/nighters which were leg rest coaches. Perhaps an upscale coach product would be an idea. But the slumbercoach is a neat museum piece in my view, nothing else.

One thing I've said when this subject comes up is that a lie flat seat is more about market expansion than cannibalization of existing demand. Right now, Amtrak has little value to me for long distance trips. I would take the train to LA, Portland, or Denver, but at the present moment, the cost of a sleeper one way is as much as a round trip flight across the country. A lie flat seat for ~$150 for the above mentioned trips would be competitive with flying. Right now, instead of taking Amtrak I pay Southwest ~$150 to fly plus the cost of a couple pre flight drinks to deal with the anxiety of taking off. So that's Southwest up 150 and Amtrak up 0. Will some people choose a lie flat chair over a sleeper? Yes. Will everyone in a roomette downgrade? No. Amtrak has no problem filling sleepers up and if anything, not having to use roomettes as a form of transportation will give Amtrak the latitude to make the sleepers more upscale as you put it since people just riding the train for the sake of transportation will have an option.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

One thing I've said when this subject comes up is that a lie flat seat is more about market expansion than cannibalization of existing demand. Right now, Amtrak has little value to me for long distance trips. I would take the train to LA, Portland, or Denver, but at the present moment, the cost of a sleeper one way is as much as a round trip flight across the country. A lie flat seat for ~$150 for the above mentioned trips would be competitive with flying. Right now, instead of taking Amtrak I pay Southwest ~$150 to fly plus the cost of a couple pre flight drinks to deal with the anxiety of taking off. So that's Southwest up 150 and Amtrak up 0. Will some people choose a lie flat chair over a sleeper? Yes. Will everyone in a roomette downgrade? No. Amtrak has no problem filling sleepers up and if anything, not having to use roomettes as a form of transportation will give Amtrak the latitude to make the sleepers more upscale as you put it since people just riding the train for the sake of transportation will have an option.

But you’re assuming that IF Amtrak had slumbercoaches the price would only be $150 extra. VIA doesn’t charge dramatically different prices for a section vs. a roomette.

 

[fdaley]

But you’re assuming that IF Amtrak had slumbercoaches the price would only be $150 extra. VIA doesn’t charge dramatically different prices for a section vs. a roomette.

Actually, by taking a section on our last trip on the Canadian, I think we saved nearly $1,000 over the price of a bedroom. Either one, though, is far more than the coach fare.

And the bed in a VIA section is way nicer than those narrow Slumbercoach beds.

 

[sttom]

But you’re assuming that IF Amtrak had slumbercoaches the price would only be $150 extra. VIA doesn’t charge dramatically different prices for a section vs. a roomette.

And OBB charges 44€ for a bed in a 4 person couchette. What one company markets a product for and charges in turn has nothing to do with the behavior of a company it doesn't compete with. If there is demand for something similar to how Via treats is sections, then that is a different discussion entirely. Via treats sections in a similar manner that it's predecessors treated sleeping accomodations which is that they are all first class, but some are more first class than others and sections were that low tier. What people like me are asking for is something in-between first class and being treated like cattle.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

What people like me are asking for is something in-between first class and being treated like cattle.

Well... what you are asking for is a sleeper with a lower price. You want the sleeper, you just don’t want to pay for it.

 

[fdaley]

Well... what you are asking for is a sleeper with a lower price. You want the sleeper, you just don’t want to pay for it.

Well, an intermediate class could be more toward coach than sleeper -- something like the CN/VIA Dayniter, but perhaps with seats that reclined to flat. Amtrak has acknowledged that there's room for something between coach and sleeper by adding business class to some of the overnight runs, but I'm not sure that the current BC cars are enough different from coach to be worth the extra for an overnight trip.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Well, an intermediate class could be more toward coach than sleeper -- something like the CN/VIA Dayniter, but perhaps with seats that reclined to flat. Amtrak has acknowledged that there's room for something between coach and sleeper by adding business class to some of the overnight runs, but I'm not sure that the current BC cars are enough different from coach to be worth the extra for an overnight trip.

Oh I agree there is room for a proper business class. I don’t think lie-flat seats are necessary for that. Most domestic overnights don’t provide that in first class.

Ideally it would be reserved 2x1 seating.

 

[MisterUptempo]

Now that the subject of sleepers has come up (and forgive if this has been discussed elsewhere in the forum), but is it possible that Amtrak is leaving money on the table by not offering a single berth option?

I ask because I look to the new OBB Nightjet sleepers currently being built by Siemens, for use in 2022. Most particularly, I'm looking at the new mini-suites, which could be the answer for a single berth option. When discussing the new Nightjet sleepers, a representative from OBB mentioned that their customers have evolved, and are becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of sleeping in an open couchette compartment, which prompted the development of the mini-suite. The new sleepers will eliminate the open couchette altogether, in favor of the mini-suites, a two bed cabin with toilet and shower, and a couchette-like family bedroom.

The idea of spending most of your journey in a mini-suite cocoon might not be really appealing on a route in which one would spend two nights aboard, but there are plenty of existing routes, and possibly new ones, in which this option makes sense.

These sleepers are built from Viaggio coaches, so it should not be too terribly difficult to translate the design for Venture coaches, which are only now beginning to ply the rails in the Midwest.

Would it benefit Amtrak to request one or two of these sleepers be built and tested with customers before a decision is finally made on what Superliner replacements might look like, when that decision is made, possibly years down the road? If Amtrak tested and gave the concept a "thumbs down", I can see them selling the tester units to the Midwest, where they could try an overnight sleeper service on the Chicago-Twin Cities route. With the travel time for the additional round trip slated to take 8 hours, a neatly designed, price competitive, private sleeping space might prove a winner.

 

[fdaley]

I would love to see more options in type/arrangement of sleeper accommodations. The roomette-or-bedroom choice is sometimes a bit limiting for families.

One of the reasons we take sections on VIA is that we can book two lowers and an upper for a family of three, whereas a VIA bedroom sleeps a maximum of two. You could solve this by booking two bedrooms for a suite, but then you're really upping the cost. They still have drawing rooms in some cases, and we loved taking those on the Ocean before the Renaissance cars arrived, but there's usually not more than one per train so they sell out, much like the family bedrooms on Amtrak. And of course, the latter aren't so useful after children reach their pre-teen years.

 

[neroden]

I suspect that fleet renewal of many hundreds of Coaches is such a pressing matter right now that significant additional Sleepers will have to wait a while, unless Congress decides to fund such an addition separately. I think Congress will find it hard to do so while Coaches are falling apart.

I actually think the question is up in the air awaiting the decision on what to do to replace the bilevel (Superliner) fleet.

Right now, they probably have just about enough sleepers for the existing single-level trains, even with rising demand, and enough for the Night Owl (starting soon) and a daily Cardinal. Even if they wanted a "few" more, it usually doesn't make sense to make a small order -- unless they want 25 more sleepers, it's hardly worth ordering. (Though if Canada orders some, they might piggyback.)

But when they go to replace all the bilevel coaches, I expect they'll replace the sleepers at the same time. If they switch some or all of them to single-level, this may mean a large single-level sleeper order, which could also include additional sleepers for the eastern trains.

 

[neroden]

Now that the subject of sleepers has come up (and forgive if this has been discussed elsewhere in the forum), but is it possible that Amtrak is leaving money on the table by not offering a single berth option?

I ask because I look to the new OBB Nightjet sleepers currently being built by Siemens, for use in 2022. Most particularly, I'm looking at the new mini-suites, which could be the answer for a single berth option. When discussing the new Nightjet sleepers, a representative from OBB mentioned that their customers have evolved, and are becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of sleeping in an open couchette compartment, which prompted the development of the mini-suite. The new sleepers will eliminate the open couchette altogether, in favor of the mini-suites, a two bed cabin with toilet and shower, and a couchette-like family bedroom.
View attachment 21185
The idea of spending most of your journey in a mini-suite cocoon might not be really appealing on a route in which one would spend two nights aboard, but there are plenty of existing routes, and possibly new ones, in which this option makes sense.

These sleepers are built from Viaggio coaches, so it should not be too terribly difficult to translate the design for Venture coaches, which are only now beginning to ply the rails in the Midwest.

Would it benefit Amtrak to request one or two of these sleepers be built and tested with customers before a decision is finally made on what Superliner replacements might look like, when that decision is made, possibly years down the road? If Amtrak tested and gave the concept a "thumbs down", I can see them selling the tester units to the Midwest, where they could try an overnight sleeper service on the Chicago-Twin Cities route. With the travel time for the additional round trip slated to take 8 hours, a neatly designed, price competitive, private sleeping space might prove a winner.

I'm surprised at the complete lack of windows in that design, but other than that, it seems OK. I'd be fine in a cocoon with a *view*...

 

[west point]

Several items.
1. Although forgotten by some and not know by others === The original order from CAF for 130 V-2s was 25 Bag dorms ;; 25 sleepers; 25 diners, and 55 baggage cars. Order of delivery was Baggage, then Bag - Dorms, Diners and then Sleepers. Just before cut off of the 11th Bag dorm start construction the order was changed to 10 Bag - dorms and 70 baggage. That allowed for compete retirement of Heritage baggage that were becoming incapable of addition rehab.
2. Framing of Baggage cars is such that they cannot be converted to coaches, bag - Dorms, or sleepers.
3. CAF appears that it did not secure delivery of parts for construction in a timely manner which is the reason for the very slow deliveries. That stretches out to over 10 years from order to final deliveries late this calendar year. Amtrak is rumored that it also has a shortage of parts for the V-2s
4. It is rumored that the as built plans for the V-2s are the property of Amtrak.
5. Several business pubs are stating that manufacturers are having difficulty in getting parts from vendors of all disciplines. Note the world wide chip shortage especially for auto companies The only way Amtrak can get the needed addition sleepers built quickly IMHO would be for the president invoke the defense production act to move all parts for additional sleepers to the front of the line.
6. In light of reason #5 Amtrak must rebuild every sidelined car still available but the parts problem may hinder that as well ? That is both Amfleets and Superliners.
7. As for rebuilding the P-40 and P-42s the parts shortage is there as well especially those locos traction motor trucks.