France's rail network affected by apparent coordinated arson

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Metra Electric Rider

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Mar 10, 2016
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2,187
Metra Electric Rider said:
Sounds like France's rail network has been hit with a massive arson attack on the TGV lines just in time for interfering with the opening ceremonies for the Olympics. The blame is being put on "leftist" or "radical environmentalists" - which means they don't know yet. Something like 800,000 people have been affected.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/a...french-rail-network-olympics-opening-ceremony
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The article does not say anything about "environmentalists". It mentions that similar methods were used by "extreme-left" groups in Germany in September. The "extreme-left" and incidentally also the "extreme right" do have many pressing agenda items other than environmentalism. Given the current situation, it could just as well have something to do with immigration or a few other favorite hobby horses of theirs. Only the investigation may be able to figure out who they were and why they did it.
 
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Just-Thinking-51 said:
No clue about the political nature of France, but environmentalists are probably train supporters.
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They're train supporters, but not necessarily high-speed lines supporters, as the cost/benefit ratio is sometimes way too high vs improving the existing conventional line.
Yet, there's no way they would be behind this to me, as these are decades-old lines.
 
Just-Thinking-51 said:
No clue about the political nature of France, but environmentalists are probably train supporters. Better to travel by train then having everyone in there's own automobile type of people.
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I have argued with extreme left-wing environmentalists on the internet and also in real life and it seems to me that some don't think like that. They think public transit, including inter city trains, should be either free or so cheap as to be almost free. They look with suspicion on the state railroad companies and accuse them of having developed trains into a premium high-cost segment for the middle class that essentially excludes poorer people and minorities from travelling.
 
slasher-fun said:
Not betting on who's behind this, but setting 4 ducts on fire at 4 different locations overnight doesn't really seem that complex to me.
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Identifying such consequential and geographically dispersed targets and attacking them simultaneously requires a lot of intelligence and resources (including manpower).

Have a look at the article below and you will see that it was expected that Russia would try its best to stir chaos at the Olympics:
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/...is-olympics-face-unprecedented-security-risks

Anyways, even though leftist groups have pulled off something similar in Germany last year, they usually claim responsibility. Same for Islamists which have a strong preference for bloody violence over chaotic, but harmless sabotage. Not taking responsibility only fits perpetrators which are concerned about deniability: state-backed groups - and that is why I’d place my money on them…
 
Actually they were targeting 5 locations. Got spooked by MOW employees at the last one. Preplan an attack and hitting 5 targets during the night might be doable with one guy, but you need to chart out the times (1am to 5am) and the distance between sites.

Anyways this was mostly a “pain in the butt” attack on the infrastructure. A little bit of knowledge and easy pickings.

If it was a one guy or a small team it will require some time but they will be discovered. Too many cameras out there to avoid detection.
 
jis said:
The article does not say anything about "environmentalists". It mentions that similar methods were used by "extreme-left" groups in Germany in September. The "extreme-left" does have many pressing agenda items other than environmentalism. Given the current situation, it could just as well have something to do with immigration or a few other favorite hobby horses of theirs. Only the investigation may be able to figure out who they were and why they did it.
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I think that environmentalist mention was on the BBC or another website. I don't see it being a particularly leftist cause unless it's against mass tourism, which seems to be hot this summer in Europe or housing shortages/Olympic corruption or something.
cirdan said:
I have argued with extreme left-wing environmentalists on the internet and also in real life and it seems to me that some don't think like that. They think public transit, including inter city trains, should be either free or so cheap as to be almost free. They look with suspicion on the state railroad companies and accuse them of having developed trains into a premium high-cost segment for the middle class that essentially excludes poorer people and minorities from travelling.
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Remember when extinction rebellion glued themselves to - wait for it - electric trains in London (I think they reformed as Just Stop Oil who were blocking roads and spray painted Stonehenge)?

Definitely an interesting thing to attack. I haven't had time to follow up on the news stories until now.
 
Urban Sky said:
Identifying such consequential and geographically dispersed targets and attacking them simultaneously requires a lot of intelligence and resources (including manpower).
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I don't know of course. I just have an opinion. But if somebody like Russia is behind it, you have to ask, what's in it for them.

Election times are good times to stir as you can really polarise people. Anonymous or insufficiently explained attacks makes different factions suspect and accuse one another. It fuels conspiracy theories, as each side seeks to blame the other. This type of atmosphere generally plays to the extremes and destabilizes a country.

The problem with France is that they have just had their election, so the value of doing this type of thing is much diminished. Now if the same type off thing were to happen in the USA for example...
 
cirdan said:
The problem with France is that they have just had their election, so the value of doing this type of thing is much diminished. Now if the same type off thing were to happen in the USA for example...
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Our rail system is so messed up that if anyone sabotaged anything, people would just think it's business as usual. :)
 
cirdan said:
I don't know of course. I just have an opinion. But if somebody like Russia is behind it, you have to ask, what's in it for them.

Election times are good times to stir as you can really polarise people. Anonymous or insufficiently explained attacks makes different factions suspect and accuse one another. It fuels conspiracy theories, as each side seeks to blame the other. This type of atmosphere generally plays to the extremes and destabilizes a country.

The problem with France is that they have just had their election, so the value of doing this type of thing is much diminished. Now if the same type off thing were to happen in the USA for example...
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Agree with all you write here but would like to add the French elections haven't as yet resolved their political problems, it's still ongoing.
 
If someone was going to attack multiple train stations or train lines in one night, it would have to be simultaneous or nearly so. IF someone hit one target, then another and maybe a third, patrols & surveillance would increase at others fairly quickly. Especially if a pattern or direction of travel could be determined.
 
AFS1970 said:
If someone was going to attack multiple train stations or train lines in one night, it would have to be simultaneous or nearly so. IF someone hit one target, then another and maybe a third, patrols & surveillance would increase at others fairly quickly. Especially if a pattern or direction of travel could be determined.
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This was done by different groups (probaby 4), as the targets were definitely too far apart for this to be done by a single group (except maybe for the two targets on the LGV Est that were close enough).

But this was done in a 4 hrs timespan between 1am and 5am, when the high-speed rail network is closed for traffic, and this was plenty of time because:
- once SNCF Réseau notices a malfunction on the network, a team has to been dispatched on-site to assess the nature of the malfunction
- once it's been observed that this was due to an arson, you have no way to guess that this will happen elsewhere on the network as well
- once you've noticed a pattern of arsons... you still have no way of patrolling 2800 km (1700 mi) of high-speed tracks in a snap. The planned arson on the LGV Sud-Est only failed because maintenance crew were working nearby and noticed the suspicious individuals, had they not been working here the arson would have been a success there as well
 
MARC Rider said:
The Daily Mail article mentioned that the TGV and Ouigo trains were able to be diverted to the conventional lines. Of course, this messed up schedules, but the system kept running. One of the advantages of High Speed Rail over gadgetbahnen like maglev.
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Or indeed, speaking in more general terms, one of the advantages of having a dense and interconnected network with alternative routes and baseline compatibility of rolling stock and signaling systems. This also comes in useful when lines are closed for maintenance for example.

I used to live in Switzerland and there were two different main lines between Zurich and Basel, as well as several secondary lines and variants that one could potentially use (if one felt so inclined). At that time I was doing this journey at least twice a week, so I got to know all the lines and scenery pretty much by heart. One of the two main lines was slightly faster than the other, so trains not serving any intermediate stations typically went by the faster route. But they did once in a while get diverted via the other route for whatever reason. There were also several secondary routes that interconnected the two main lines and I did at times experience some rather curious detours involving bits of one and bits of the other main line. This happened mostly late at night when I guess there was a lot of freight activity or also closures for maintenance. Typically overall scheduled journey time was only exceeded marginally.
 

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