Gateway Project/New York Penn Station capacity improvement

[jis]

Why would you expect anything else from an administration which has the most admirable and shameful record in history of lying whenever it suites their convenience, which translates to almost always?

 

[neroden]

So the result of the Trump administration's gross, ridiculous, blatantly poltiically-driven attacks on the most important rail service in the country is going to be...

....the elimination of FTA discretion in favor of Congressional earmarking. Mark my words. The FTA was given discretion under the understanding that it would apply it in a responsible and scientific manner. If it doesn't, Congress will just take back its power to decide what the money gets spent on. Which it should.

This more or less has already been happening, with programs created which were designed specifically to fund specific large projects several times in the last few years.

 

[Andrew]

Should one new tube--instead of two new tubes--be constructed? This potentially could save money over the next several years and still allow for direct Raritan Valley Line Service into Penn Station as well as more MD and NEC Service.

Please read the two attached articles for further reference:

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/commuterregional/part-3-of-6-is-this-tunnel-really-necessary/

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/part-6-of-6-we-have-a-plan-b-do-we-need-a-plan-c/

 

[jis]

The current fire code apparently requires an escape tunnel to be available for such long tunnels. Ergo there is no way to be fire code compliant with a single tunnel anyway. But all this does sell more Railway Age, so why not?

It is interesting when even third world countries that are digging long tunnels are doing so with an escape tunnel, while the richest country in the world appears to be trying to penny pinch itself into building a less safe setup than what third world countries are willing to afford.

 

[Andrew]

I thought maybe the rules would change and thus Amtrak would possibly only build one tunnel--but maybe that would not decongest A interlocking.

And wouldn't two new tubes--without Penn Station South--still add more NJ Transit Rush Hour Capacity?

A revised financial plan for both the Portal North Bridge and the Hudson Tunnel Project will be submitted this week to USDOT.

 

[keelhauled]

According to the New York Times, Amtrak has abandoned hope of Gateway being constructed before the existing tubes fail, and is planning at least $100 million in major repairs in the near future. They hope to avoid closing a tunnel completely, but service disruptions seem likely, at least to some extent.

 

[west point]

Present fire codes do not allow just one bore. New tunnel construction requires at least one cross connetion with another tube about every 800 feet. Gateway must be two tubes. Of course present North river tubes are grandfathered. Check all the light rail tunneling, SEA, LAX

 

[jis]

Here we have the richest city in the richest country in the world arguing about why they need to skimp and build a hazardous single tunnel when much poorer countries are going ahead and building fire safe dual tunnels, whether it be under mountains or under water. Shameful.

 

[west point]

jis it certainly is a shame about all this arguing.

Friend told me that these repairs were going to be necessary before new tunnel bores were complete that are now being listed for present tubes was going to come but guess I tried to ignore that possibility.

 

[west point]

The following link should give some of the proposed construction cutting corners pause. Making the new bores safe as possible does not come cheap. You can get an idea of how much needs to be done to provide a safe passage from NJ to NYC. The link should also give pause to all the commuters that now use the present North River tubes as to their lack of safety compared to the present standards. JIS any comments ?

 

[jis]

The North River tubes and the East River tubes, of course are problematic, and even more so in the NJT MLVs because there is no emergency egress from the lower level of the cars in the tunnel, since the lower level emergency exits are blocked by the bench walls. That is why the proposed new tunnels have bench walls only on one side in their design.

Incidentally, the underwater tubes of Kolkata Metro Line 2 have cross connected dual bore for double track, and the long single track tunnels under the Himalayan Pir Panjal Range of the Kashmir Rail Link that is under construction, comes with an additional isolate-able escape tunnel.

 

[west point]

Another thought. What if a diesel dual mode derails in one of the old tunnels and catches fire ? That is one reason for my opposition for Amtrak buying them. The tunnels that will be suspect are East River, North River, Maybe Union tunnel east of Baltimore, Baltimore B&P, Washington Union Station tunnel south ( forgot name ). Would a diesel fire be hot enough to cause Concrete to pop off as shown in the tunnel link ?

 

[Andrew]

Amtrak is looking for the third section of the Concrete Casing to be built beneath Hudson Yards in Manhattan.

https://www.politico.com/states/new...-to-build-second-half-of-hudson-yards-1263311 says that, "
Related Companies, the real estate concern run by President Donald Trump supporter Stephen Ross, has signed an agreement with Amtrak to pursue a cheap federal loan for the second half of Hudson Yards — the developer’s opulent city-within-a-city on Manhattan’s West Side.

The company and Amtrak are poised to file an application for more than $1 billion in low-cost debt from the federal transportation department to help fund a platform over the West Side rail yard. The platform would support the second half of a skyscraper city so gilded that some call it Manhattan’s Little Dubai.

On Feb. 11, Related Hudson Yards President Jay Cross and Amtrak Chief Operating Officer Stephen Gardner signed an agreement to pursue the loan, according to details acquired by POLITICO. If successful, the deal could pave the way for Related to begin construction on Hudson Yards’ second phase — several new skyscrapers bounded by 11th and 12th avenues, 30th and 33rd streets...
The details of the February agreement indicate that Amtrak will pay Related $385 million to construct the third and final section of concrete casing along the Gateway tunnel’s future right-of-way — running southwest from 11th Avenue to 30th Street, where it would connect with the future Hudson tunnel, according to details shared by a source familiar with the agreement."

Do you folks think that the Trump Administration would be more likely give federal grants for the 7 train Extension to New Jersey?

 

[Thirdrail7]

Do you folks think that the Trump Administration would be more likely give federal grants for the 7 train Extension to New Jersey?

No, especially since the MTA isn't entertaining extending the 7 train to NJ.

 

[jis]

Another thought. What if a diesel dual mode derails in one of the old tunnels and catches fire ? That is one reason for my opposition for Amtrak buying them. The tunnels that will be suspect are East River, North River, Maybe Union tunnel east of Baltimore, Baltimore B&P, Washington Union Station tunnel south ( forgot name ). Would a diesel fire be hot enough to cause Concrete to pop off as shown in the tunnel link ?

That horse had fled the barn long back, as the most intense user of the North River Tunnels, NJ Transit (not Amtrak) use dual mode locomotives in scads through those tunnels.

 

[neroden]

According to the New York Times, Amtrak has abandoned hope of Gateway being constructed before the existing tubes fail, and is planning at least $100 million in major repairs in the near future. They hope to avoid closing a tunnel completely, but service disruptions seem likely, at least to some extent.

There goes the NJT commuter schedules. Actually, with all of NJT's other problems they'll probably be glad to have an excuse to run fewer trains on the NEC, but the commuters of New Jersey will *hurt*. (Amtrak will prioritize its own trains, as it should.)

 

[west point]

has there been any indications when NJT will change their schedules ?. It may be Amtrak does not yet even have funding in hand ?

 

[jis]

has there been any indications when NJT will change their schedules ?. It may be Amtrak does not yet even have funding in hand ?

I find it very hard to believe that Amtrak cannot find a hundred million in their capital budget and NEC operating account surplus.

This could come as a part of this summer's construction season work. Of course the schedule impact will be announced after everything is worked out about the logistics of it. The usual suspects will be:

• Amtrak terminating some trains in Newark or Philly from the south.
• NJT Midtown Directs diverted to Hoboken.
• Possibly a number of rush hour NJT NEC and NJCL trains terminated at Newark or diverted to Hoboken.
• Some NJT trains combined and some outright suspended.
  
• etc.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I don't think this construction is likely to occur this fiscal year. There is entirely too much to work out and they are attempting to get the I ladder extension completed prior to the outage.

 

[Andrew]

Operating one tube during rush hour would cause an enormous amount of delays!

Could the current Penn Station--without the Block 780 Expansion--enable additional rush hour NJ Transit trains to run?

Also, USDOT released the environmental assessment for the Sawtooth Bridge. https://cms8.fra.dot.gov/environmen...s/amtrak-sawtooth-bridges-replacement-project

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Would NJT service to Penn Station even continue in the event one of the tunnels was closed for an extended period of time? Capacity would be reduced from 24 trains per hour to an absolute maximum of 9. Amtrak already operates about 6 per hour as it is, with hourly Acela and NER round-trips as well as Keystones and various other LD and stare supported routes. Unless I'm missing something, the only way to retain high-frequency NJT service in such an event would be to drastically reduce Amtrak service or increase capacity by running the operating tunnel in one direction only for long periods of time, which would also mess up frequent Amtrak corridor service.

 

[jis]

It is 9 per hour in each direction. Amtrak operates on an average 3-4 per hour in each direction through the tunnel. So no reason for NJT to stop service. They will still have more trains running than Amtrak in he morning and evening rush hours. If a tunnel is shut down, Amtrak will take some cuts too. It is not like they will continue running everything. They won't. Basically, something similar to weekend service, which is designed to enable taking one tunnel out of service, will operate through the tunnels.

I suspect the decision about what will and will not run will be collectively made by the NEC Commission and not unilaterally by Amtrak too.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

It is 9 per hour in each direction. Amtrak operates on an average 3-4 per hour in each direction through the tunnel. So no reason for NJT to stop service. They will still have more trains running than Amtrak in he morning and evening rush hours. If a tunnel is shut down, Amtrak will take some cuts too. It is not like they will continue running everything. They won't. Basically, something similar to weekend service, which is designed to enable taking one tunnel out of service, will operate through the tunnels.

I suspect the decision about what will and will not run will be collectively made by the NEC Commission and not unilaterally by Amtrak too.

Got it; I thought it was 9 per hour total. So is that set-up one which has all trains eastbound for half an hour and all trains westbound the other half hour?

 

[west point]

It just come to my attention that NJ Transit has some plan to build a west bound track from Hoboken line to the NEC underneath the Sawtooth bridge. That would give NJT ability to run trains to and from Hoboken to NEC concurrently. that would be in contrast to only having the eastbound NEC to Hoboken track that was built in the late 1900s just allowing a one way operation., The question is can this westbound track be built before the Sawtooth bridge replacement is complete ?

If the westbound track can be built now it is vitally important that it be built in case of a North river tunnel bore shutdown.

 

[jis]

Got it; I thought it was 9 per hour total. So is that set-up one which has all trains eastbound for half an hour and all trains westbound the other half hour?

Yes. Strictly speaking, realistically they cannot maintain more than 8tph in each direction continuously because of the variability in the amount of time it takes to clear traffic going one way through A interlocking before the direction can be flipped. But typically in rush hours, by throttling the traffic in the non-rush direction some, they can shoe horn in a few more than 8 or 9 in the rush direction. As I said, this is nothing new. The entire weekend schedule is built based on the assumption that one tunnel will be out of service.