Glacier National Park by the Empire Builder

[Matthew H Fish]

This was a very intense trip that lasted a little over 48 hours, leaving Friday afternoon and coming back Sunday afternoon.
I have done two day trips where both nights were spent on a train before, both times going to the Bay Area on the Coast Starlight. But looking at schedules, I saw that the same thing could work on the Empire Builder. So I took the Empire Builder from Portland, sleeping on it overnight, and waking up in Montana, giving me 12 hours to spend in Glacier National Park, before returning on the same train.
If this seems like a difficult trip, it was. While I am a little more amiable to the idea of sleeping in coach than most, I got like 3-4 hours of broken sleep, then got out, walked to the park, walked around in the park, ended up taking a shuttle and doing a 3 mile hike at 7000 feet while carrying my pack. I actually don't really know how I pulled it off!
So this type of trip is possible. It is probably a lot easier if you can get a room or roommette. Like a lot of my train and transit ideas, it is a good idea...for people who have something to prove. I don't expect that most people in the Portland or Seattle areas would actually do this. But, if someone has a lifelong desire to visit Glacier, and also really likes trains, it is actually one of the cheaper and easier ways to accomplish this.
Also, environmentally friendly. A point I make in the video (at some times with some saltiness) is how much Glacier (and other National Parks) are based around automobile tourism. Which has a lot direct and indirect environmental damages, and also ruins a lot of the aesthetics of why people visit national parks. I included lots of views of parking lots in this video, and I could have included even more. Having a 300 vehicle parking lot at a place like Logan Pass just is not part of the ambiance I would like.
I know that of course some people, especially large families, are going to need personal vehicles to get to and explore the park. But also---there is a train station, right there! But the park doesn't really directly incentivize people to use the train station. For example, there are no shuttles between the train station and the park. There is also no other forms of transportation, as far as I know, between Whitefish and West Glacier. All of which could be done pretty easily---I mean, at least as easily as building 300 vehicle parking lots at the top of a winding mountain road.
On the plus side, there is a good shuttle system in the park. The schedules and tops were a little confusing, but I took the shuttles between Apgar, Avalanche Creek, and Logan Pass, and got to see a big section of the park that way.

 

[tgstubbs1]

Did you notice anything different about the consists on the Empire Builder?

 

[Eric in East County]

Our very first overnight train trip was from Seattle to Glacier National Park. (This was back in 1993 when smoking was still allowed on Amtrak trains. We got stuck in a coach that had a smoking section and when we arrived at the park the next day, our throats were sore, and our sinuses were throbbing.)

The park itself was great. We got off at the East Glacier Railroad Station, which is in easy walking distance of the Glacier Park Lodge. From there, we caught a shuttle ride to the Many Glacier Hotel where we stayed. We went to the park primarily to do trail riding. Back then, you could still book an all-day trail ride that went up the Swift Current Pass trail (with its many switchbacks) to the Granite Park Chalet and that ride was the highlight of our stay in the park. We also rode on one of the park’s vintage White Model 706 tour buses from Many Glacier Hotel to Lake McDonald Lodge by way of the Going-to-the-Sun Highway. We were there in August and one day, we had snow flurries!

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Did you notice anything different about the consists on the Empire Builder?

The only thing that came to mind was that the engines looked different? Smaller, more stream-lined and more modern? But since I haven't taken the Empire Builder, I don't know how new that is.
Coming out of Portland, the train was only half, so it was just two coach cars, a diner, and a sleeping car...but I think that is normal?

 

[Willbridge]

Thanks for the ride on the North Bank line!

An aside on Arlington, OR -- it was relocated to permit the dam pool to cover the old town. It looks a bit eerie, with all the government-approved houses from the same decade. It was a stop for the Portland Rose up to the end in 1971. The Amtrak Pioneer did not stop there.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The only thing that came to mind was that the engines looked different? Smaller, more stream-lined and more modern? But since I haven't taken the Empire Builder, I don't know how new that is.
Coming out of Portland, the train was only half, so it was just two coach cars, a diner, and a sleeping car...but I think that is normal?

Yep, the Portland Section of the Builder is joined to the Seattle Section in Spokane before heading East to Chicago!( and Split @ Spokane upon arrival from Chicago, with the Shorty Consist heading to PDX and the Longer Section to Seattle)

 

[Chellerz]

This was a very intense trip that lasted a little over 48 hours, leaving Friday afternoon and coming back Sunday afternoon.
I have done two day trips where both nights were spent on a train before, both times going to the Bay Area on the Coast Starlight. But looking at schedules, I saw that the same thing could work on the Empire Builder. So I took the Empire Builder from Portland, sleeping on it overnight, and waking up in Montana, giving me 12 hours to spend in Glacier National Park, before returning on the same train.
If this seems like a difficult trip, it was. While I am a little more amiable to the idea of sleeping in coach than most, I got like 3-4 hours of broken sleep, then got out, walked to the park, walked around in the park, ended up taking a shuttle and doing a 3 mile hike at 7000 feet while carrying my pack. I actually don't really know how I pulled it off!
So this type of trip is possible. It is probably a lot easier if you can get a room or roommette. Like a lot of my train and transit ideas, it is a good idea...for people who have something to prove. I don't expect that most people in the Portland or Seattle areas would actually do this. But, if someone has a lifelong desire to visit Glacier, and also really likes trains, it is actually one of the cheaper and easier ways to accomplish this.
Also, environmentally friendly. A point I make in the video (at some times with some saltiness) is how much Glacier (and other National Parks) are based around automobile tourism. Which has a lot direct and indirect environmental damages, and also ruins a lot of the aesthetics of why people visit national parks. I included lots of views of parking lots in this video, and I could have included even more. Having a 300 vehicle parking lot at a place like Logan Pass just is not part of the ambiance I would like.
I know that of course some people, especially large families, are going to need personal vehicles to get to and explore the park. But also---there is a train station, right there! But the park doesn't really directly incentivize people to use the train station. For example, there are no shuttles between the train station and the park. There is also no other forms of transportation, as far as I know, between Whitefish and West Glacier. All of which could be done pretty easily---I mean, at least as easily as building 300 vehicle parking lots at the top of a winding mountain road.
On the plus side, there is a good shuttle system in the park. The schedules and tops were a little confusing, but I took the shuttles between Apgar, Avalanche Creek, and Logan Pass, and got to see a big section of the park that way.

Agreed on the car-centricism of the area. I took the EB to Belton and stayed at the Belton Lodge, which I loved. But the walk to the park entrance wasn’t much fun as there’s no sidewalk on the road and a grizzly had recently been spotted on the bike path!

 

[dlagrua]

Glacier National Park MT. is accessible by Amtrak on the East, West ends and even a central point. Specifically thats East Glacier, Isaak Walton Inn, Whitefish, Belton and a stop right at the Western entrance. . Cars rentals are available at all locations but at the Inn they may be limited. Tour busses are also there and available by reservation
There is just so much to see at Glacier, I would not recommend trying to visit in one day as the OP has done. There are six historic inns, in and around the park that offer good accommodations but with few amenities. When we visited three years ago the Empire Builder consist was three sleepers, four coaches a baggage car and two engines. It arrives in the evening going West and in the mornings going East.

 

[Rasputin]

If you are planning to visit Glacier without a car, I would recommend using a combination of the Park shuttles and the Red Bus tours, some of which I believe are offered by Pursuit and others by Xanterra so you can search their websites to see what is offered and put together an itinerary.

Note that the Izaak Walton Inn at Essex is closed for renovations this summer and I assume the Amtrak stop at Essex is seeing a dramatic drop in usage as a result.

 

[Northwestern]

Agreed on the car-centricism of the area. I took the EB to Belton and stayed at the Belton Lodge, which I loved. But the walk to the park entrance wasn’t much fun as there’s no sidewalk on the road and a grizzly had recently been spotted on the bike path!

**************************************************************
I'm thinking of a stay at the Belton Chalet next summer. I called them, just to get general information, and asked how far in advance is necessary in order to book on a desired day. They told me that now is not too early, as the Chalet fills up quickly. I got reservations for next July and asked for a room with a balcony, as I have been told it's good for train spotting.

https://is.gd/pEtqO2

 

[Rasputin]

**************************************************************
I'm thinking of a stay at the Belton Chalet next summer. I called them, just to get general information, and asked how far in advance is necessary in order to book on a desired day. They told me that now is not too early, as the Chalet fills up quickly. I got reservations for next July and asked for a room with a balcony, as I have been told it's good for train spotting.

https://is.gd/pEtqO2

The Belton Chalet is a very historic place and a great place to stay and dine at. However, the Glacier Highland, right next door is also very good but less upscale and less expensive and the restaurant there is reasonably priced and very adequate.

While the Park Service free shuttles do not serve the train station at West Glacier, the west side shuttle operated by Xanerra does. It offers shuttles between the train station and the Village Inn at Apgar and on to Lake McDonald Lodge for passengers to and from the eastbound Empire Builder. The shuttle from the Village Inn also serves the westbound Empire Builder but there is no evening shuttle between Lake McDonald Lodge and the westbound Empire Builder.

https://www.glaciernationalparklodges.com/red-bus-tours/shuttles/

 

[zephyr17]

The only thing that came to mind was that the engines looked different? Smaller, more stream-lined and more modern? But since I haven't taken the Empire Builder, I don't know how new that is.
Coming out of Portland, the train was only half, so it was just two coach cars, a diner, and a sleeping car...but I think that is normal?

Yes, the normal consist for the Portland section is a Sightseer Lounge, a coach, a coach/bag, and a sleeper (no diner). It often used to be called the "Baby Builder" because it was short. However, since COVID until the restoration of the second sleeper this summer, the Seattle section was as short (baggage, transdorm, sleeper, diner, coach).

As to engines, you probably has a new Siemens ALC-42 one way, and a GE P-42 the other. The ALC-42s are new.

 

[lrh442]

A point I make in the video (at some times with some saltiness) is how much Glacier (and other National Parks) are based around automobile tourism.

Very true. Show up in a soot-belching 42' private tour bus? Gotcha covered! Arrive via Amtrak for a backpacking trip? Not so much. Good luck getting to the park, and good luck finding a place to put your luggage while you are in the backcountry.
For an entity whose mission is the protection of wild places you'd think they would at least make a token effort to encourage environmentally friendly modes of getting there.

 

[Northwestern]

While the Park Service free shuttles do not serve the train station at West Glacier, the west side shuttle operated by Xanerra does. It offers shuttles between the train station and the Village Inn at Apgar and on to Lake McDonald Lodge for passengers to and from the eastbound Empire Builder. The shuttle from the Village Inn also serves the westbound Empire Builder but there is no evening shuttle between Lake McDonald Lodge and the westbound Empire Builder.

https://www.glaciernationalparklodges.com/red-bus-tours/shuttles/

Thanks for the good information. Next summer, I plan on 4 days at a lodge in Whitefish, then rent a car for a day at the Belton Chalet.

This summer, a few weeks ago, I was going to take the Portland leg of the Builder to Whitefish,f MT. However, the train was cancelled and Amtrak offered a bus from Portland to Spokane then picking up the train from Spokane to Whitefish. That kind of left a bad taste in my mouth and I declined and flew home from Portland.

Next summer I plan on a flight to PDX then, the next day, another flight to Kalispell with a shuttle to Whitefish. I'll spend a week in Whitefish overall, taking one of the days for an overnight in West Glacier and the Belton Chalet. My last day will be back for an overnight in Whitefish. I may take the Builder back to Portland, but I am concerned about the late arrival time (10:21 PM) for the westbound EB into Whitefish. I assume the train will be late. I don't want to board the train at 11 PM or Midnight or later if that proves to be necessary.

Does anyone know, these past few months, the average arrival time into Whitefish for the westbound Empire Builder?

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I would not recommend trying to visit in one day as the OP has done. There are six historic inns, in and around the park that offer good accommodations but with few amenities. When we visited three years ago the Empire Builder consist was three sleepers, four coaches a baggage car and two engines. It arrives in the evening going West and in the mornings going East.

I wouldn't recommend it in general, either, this trip was kind of a stretch for me, but I wanted to see it and this was the only way I could.
One thing to mention about Glacier and its environs---it is expensive. Just from Google maps, it seems that everywhere in West Glacier, Hungry Horse, Columbia Falls and Whitefish is in the $200-500 price range, per night. You have to go to Kalispell before you can find something under $150 a night (at least now, in July---probably a bit cheaper in the off-season). And that is assuming that any of those places even have vacancies! So while my trip might seem a bit far-fetched, it actually made practical sense to me.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I may take the Builder back to Portland, but I am concerned about the late arrival time (10:21 PM) for the EB into Whitefish. I assume the train will be late. I don't want to board the train at 11 PM or Midnight or later if that proves to be necessary.

Does anyone know, these past few months, the average arrival time into Whitefish for the westbound Empire Builder?

I don't know about the average, but on my trip, it was 10 minutes early into West Glacier. The worst Empire Builder delays were doing the oil boom in North Dakota, it appears to be getting better.
One thing to know about Whitefish is that it is at a high latitude, and also at the Western edge of its time zone. So in summer, sunset isn't until 9:30 or so, and it is still light at 10:30.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Agreed on the car-centricism of the area. I took the EB to Belton and stayed at the Belton Lodge, which I loved. But the walk to the park entrance wasn’t much fun as there’s no sidewalk on the road and a grizzly had recently been spotted on the bike path!

It is buried deep in my video, so here is a shorter clip of it:



This was a black bear encounter I had, only about 1000 feet from the park gate.

 

[TrackWalker]

...So while my trip might seem a bit far-fetched, it actually made practical sense to me.

That wasn't a trip. It was an adventure. Well done!

 

[MARC Rider]

Also, environmentally friendly. A point I make in the video (at some times with some saltiness) is how much Glacier (and other National Parks) are based around automobile tourism.

That's pretty much baked into almost every National Park property outside some of the National Historic Parks located in big cities (e.g., Independence in Philly, or Ft, McHenry in Baltimore.) Aside from commercial bus tours, I wonder if there is a market for the park concessionaires to offer services to enable individual travelers who want to visit the park without a car. Many of the larger parks already have shuttle services within the park. Perhaps they can expand that to shuttles to nearby train stations, bus stations and airports.

 

[Chellerz]

**************************************************************
I'm thinking of a stay at the Belton Chalet next summer. I called them, just to get general information, and asked how far in advance is necessary in order to book on a desired day. They told me that now is not too early, as the Chalet fills up quickly. I got reservations for next July and asked for a room with a balcony, as I have been told it's good for train spotting.

https://is.gd/pEtqO2

It’s lovely! One of my favorite places I’ve ever stayed. It’s rustic but so charming. The restaurant is excellent too. I had a balcony room and watched some trains go by. It’s not right on top of the tracks but there are some nice benches at the Belton station across the street if you want a close-up. Have a great trip!

 

[Chellerz]

It is buried deep in my video, so here is a shorter clip of it:



This was a black bear encounter I had, only about 1000 feet from the park gate.

Yikes!!! Glad I took the road and not the path! Very cool experience for you to have had though!

 

[Matthew H Fish]

This next bit is a little less exciting, but I think it is still interesting:


This is from the return trip. It was dark after I boarded in West Glacier, so this record begins NE of Pasco the next morning, and mostly shows the Columbia River Gorge.
A few noteworthy things:

1. The most scenic part of the Columbia River Gorge is located between the eastern suburbs of Portland/Vancouver and the Hood River/White Salmon area. East of that, the Gorge continues, but it enters dry terrain. It still has a stark beauty, but it might not be as appealing to most people as the part full of waterfalls and trees.
2. The Columbia River Gorge is probably a lot more fun going east. If you are just starting out from Portland (during the times of the year when this is possible), it is going to be a lot more fun than if you have ridden long distance. For the weary traveller, all those tan hills might get boring.
3. The train goes through Washington, but you can see Oregon. The other side of the river would have been the route of the Oregon Pioneer. While I like the idea of the Oregon Pioneer coming back, this video might give an idea of why its not an easy sell. Between Pendleton and The Dalles, a distance of 120 miles, the biggest cities that a train would pass through would be Boardman (population 3800) and Arlington (population 600). Of course, it is a long distance train, with the main goal of connecting SLC to Portland, but as the video shows...not a lot of local demand in most of Eastern Oregon.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

This next bit is a little less exciting, but I think it is still interesting:


This is from the return trip. It was dark after I boarded in West Glacier, so this record begins NE of Pasco the next morning, and mostly shows the Columbia River Gorge.
A few noteworthy things:

1. The most scenic part of the Columbia River Gorge is located between the eastern suburbs of Portland/Vancouver and the Hood River/White Salmon area. East of that, the Gorge continues, but it enters dry terrain. It still has a stark beauty, but it might not be as appealing to most people as the part full of waterfalls and trees.
2. The Columbia River Gorge is probably a lot more fun going east. If you are just starting out from Portland (during the times of the year when this is possible), it is going to be a lot more fun than if you have ridden long distance. For the weary traveller, all those tan hills might get boring.
3. The train goes through Washington, but you can see Oregon. The other side of the river would have been the route of the Oregon Pioneer. While I like the idea of the Oregon Pioneer coming back, this video might give an idea of why its not an easy sell. Between Pendleton and The Dalles, a distance of 120 miles, the biggest cities that a train would pass through would be Boardman (population 3800) and Arlington (population 600). Of course, it is a long distance train, with the main goal of connecting SLC to Portland, but as the video shows...not a lot of local demand in most of Eastern Oregon.

I think most of those Eastern Oregon towns are bigger than they used to be, including Pendleton and the Dalles. And Boise is what 3/4 million now? so I think there is enough population and potential demand to warrant a revived PDX to Salt Lake (or just Ogden?) run, and maybe across WY to Cheyenne too? If SLC had service to PDX via Boise and to LS via LV as well as its existing Chicago to Oakland via Denver service, it would be quite a hub and that might go a ways towards broadening support for the system.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

I certainly agree that the gorge is beautiful and i'd love to take the train to Spokane if it didn't arrive and leave there in the middle of the night.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I think most of those Eastern Oregon towns are bigger than they used to be, including Pendleton and the Dalles. And Boise is what 3/4 million now? so I think there is enough population and potential demand to warrant a revived PDX to Salt Lake (or just Ogden?) run, and maybe across WY to Cheyenne too? If SLC had service to PDX via Boise and to LS via LV as well as its existing Chicago to Oakland via Denver service, it would be quite a hub and that might go a ways towards broadening support for the system.

Oh, I think the Pioneer is a possibility...and it would certainly make my life easier and more interesting.
But I just wanted to show how the settlement pattern is different in Eastern Oregon and Washington. Especially for rail enthusiasts (and other people) whose main experience is east of the Mississippi, someone might hear about "rural Oregon", and they are going to picture it like places on the Crescent or City of New Orleans or even the Empire Builder between Minnesota and Chicago...basically, places where "rural" means a town of 10,000 people every 20 miles. So this video hopefully shows what it looks like when there is a town of 500 people every 50 miles. A quite different scenario.
Although, it is possible that this actually makes it better for rail---in the Great Basin and Rocky Mountains, often times people actually live more concentrated, with uninhabited areas in-between, rather than smeared out in little towns.