Hatchet throwing at new Miami Station platform length error

[NE933]

Miami Herald describes the miscommunication, or some other f- up, in which the platforms at this grand new terminal is up to 200 ft. short of **most Amtrak trains** used in LD service. It appears someone used an extremely conservative calculation and failed to account for the locomotives, as well as accomodate growth in Florida service trains that would require additional cars on any given train. The key players are Amtrak, of course, and FDoT.

I'll stop writing so as to not litter my passage here with profanity, and now let others chime in with what you know, feel, both, ..

 

[Notelvis]

From what I've heard...... which admittedly is not much....... here, it is still unclear whether Amtrak had intended to move it's Miami station to this new facility in the first place. Perhaps Amtrak didn't really have much of a stakeholder role in the first place because they prefer to stay put where their service facility and turning loop are right on site.

 

[Michael061282]

Amtrak could solve the issue by going back to having separate Miami & Tampa sections for the Metero and the Star,,, it wont happen of course but they COULD.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Reposted from the other Miami thread.

Well FDot can blame anyone they want.

However summer time trains are 10-11 cars + 1-2 engines long and the platform as designed can not handle more than 12 units total, or so.

I like the location but what about the ADA platforms? Tri-Rail run bilevel / trilevel equipment. So we have low level platforms, not high.

FDot problem is the station is between two busy roads. So blaming Amtrak while building a underpass for the cars is fine with me. The road issue would/needs to be address. The lack of forward thinking is FDOT issue, after all Amtrak will never add more equipment to the trains, or even shuttle equipment down to Florida on a sliver train.

Amtrak trains to Florida are limited to 18 cars going thur NYC. However the contract with CSXT is max of 30 cars. [all number are heard and not facts] (Auto Train is 50). So if your building a station today you need to have the space to extend your platform for furture growth.

Oh yes I am sure Amtrak did not help the issues, but if you design for yesterday, and leave no space for today or the furture. Well the rebuild will have a bit of a price to it.

 

[afigg]

From what I've heard...... which admittedly is not much....... here, it is still unclear whether Amtrak had intended to move it's Miami station to this new facility in the first place. Perhaps Amtrak didn't really have much of a stakeholder role in the first place because they prefer to stay put where their service facility and turning loop are right on site.

I wonder where these rumors about Amtrak not moving to the new Miami Central Station come from? The website for the MCS says Amtrak will be operating from the station. Amtrak has stated in multiple documents, including the FY2012 Florida state fact sheet, that they will be moving to the new station in Miami. My guess is that Amtrak employees operating in Hialeah don't care for the equipment moves to Hialeah that will be needed and put down the plan. But a new high profile station with direct access to the Miami Metrorail, the airport car rental facility, parking should boost ridership from Miami.

How a fundamental design mistake like this over possible train length happens is a good question. Likely took more than 1 person to drop the ball on this one. I would not expect a local newspaper article full of finger pointing to provide accurate information on what went wrong. Everyone is engaged in CYA. so it is all spin at this point.

 

[Anderson]

1) I don't know if they felt it was necessary to platform the locomotives. That might be part of the issue...often it isn't necessary to worry about that at smaller stations, so something like that might have autopiloted things into the ground (particularly since FL is currently building a bunch of commuter stations that won't necessarily need locomotive platforming).

2) The bigger issue is likely to be space for the baggage car(s).

3) With that said, someone seriously screwed up...but somehow I'm not surprised.

4) Finally, there's one counter to the future train expansion point: If they start splitting trains to run down the FEC line (which has been mooted lately, and where the agreements were moving forward at last check), that's going to remove the need for quite as long of a platform: You'll be pulling 2-3 cars off the train for the "split" and adding a few to that train, which might give you a 15-car train north of JAX...but that's likely to be something like a 9-and-6 pair of trains south of JAX. So someone might have simply punched that into their calculations prematurely. And yes, I'm assuming that both such trains would operate out of Miami (Airport) rather than the via Orlando ones going from Miami (Airport) and the via Cocoa ones going from Miami (Downtown)...doing that would be a world-class mess.

By the way, is there any word on the status of those negotiations and whatnot?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

THE VARIOUS STAGES OF PROJECT DEVELOPMENT

​

1) Wild Enthusiasm

​

2) Growing Disenchantment

​

3) Search for the Guilty

​

4) Punishment of the Innocent

​

5) Honors and Awards for Non-Participants

​

Seems to me we've reached Stage Three! ​

​

What I liked, in the article I read, was the alleged incident at a ceremony at the new station where, according to someone at FDOT, an Amtrak official told him that the platform 'looked too short.' The FDOT official claims he never heard back from the Amtrak official, and when Mr. FDOT tried to contact him, the official was no longer with Amtrak.

So who then, in that situation, dropped the ball? :huh:

 

[chrsjrcj]

Sharing the platform with Tri-Rail isn't a big deal since its done at Hollywood, Ft. Lauderdale, Deerfield Beach, Delray Beach, and West Palm Beach already.

Based off a member on another site, who might be somewhat familiar with the situation, during 09-10 Amtrak intended on staying at Hialeah. It wasn't until late 2011 or early 2012 that Amtrak accepted the move to MIC. That seems to fall in line with my (limited) knowledge of the situation. All the early talks for Amtrak at MIC came from FDOT and not really Amtrak.

I believe another issue is that the track no longer extends all the way to 21st street. If one or two tracks did, it might have avoided the whole problem.

 

[user 1215]

In looking at a google aerial view of the station, I compared it to the map on the Miami Intermodal Center map and have a couple of questions.

I guess I'm wrong about Amtrak being elevated. Amtrak & Tri Rail expected to take three ground level platforms, the MIA Mover looks like it's elevated on the far left, but what is taking up what looks to be a full gauge platform upstairs? Is that the new FEC All Aboard Florida track?

Never mind. Looks like MetroRail.

 

[Tracktwentynine]

In looking at a google aerial view of the station, I compared it to the map on the Miami Intermodal Center map and have a couple of questions.

I guess I'm wrong about Amtrak being elevated. Amtrak & Tri Rail expected to take three ground level platforms, the MIA Mover looks like it's elevated on the far left, but what is taking up what looks to be a full gauge platform upstairs? Is that the new FEC All Aboard Florida track?

Never mind. Looks like MetroRail.

It is indeed Metrorail. In fact, the new Metro line has been open since summer.

 

[Nathanael]

Amtrak's claim is that they told FDOT in advance about the platform length issues and FDOT did nothing. (Maybe this is why Amtrak was not interested in moving back in 09-10.) Amtrak also said that they will happily block the road crossing while platformed, as they do at other stations. ;-) Apparently the road involved is not busy at all and there is talk of closing it completely.

 

[Anderson]

The FEC project is using a different station from Amtrak's existing services in Miami and Orlando. Lord only knows what an Amtrak FEC line train will use in the southern stations, but for those who were there back in the day? Remember cross-town transfers? They're baaack!

By the way, how far is Miami-Airport from the FEC station?

 

[Nathanael]

The FEC project is using a different station from Amtrak's existing services in Miami and Orlando. Lord only knows what an Amtrak FEC line train will use in the southern stations, but for those who were there back in the day? Remember cross-town transfers? They're baaack!

I think that already happened when the Downeaster was brought back. I could also point out transfers in Stockton, CA between the two stations there.

I doubt there will be many transfers in Miami.

2000 foot walking transfer down Banyan St. in West Palm Beach? Yes. (The proposed FEC station is at roughly the same cross street and the tracks are parallel and 2000 feet apart.)

Transfers in Orlando between Amtrak and the FEC's planned airport station? Yes. And boy is that inconvenient!

Hopefully the plan to send Amtrak down the FEC from Jacksonville will succeed and render the Orlando transfers unnecessary. (Unless you're going from Tampa to points on the FEC, I guess.) Really the FEC passenger trains should go beyond the airport onto the SunRail tracks, but that hasn't been proposed.

But transfers in Miami? Why would you? There's no conceivable trip for which it's useful.

By the way, how far is Miami-Airport from the FEC station?

Seven stops by Metrorail on the Orange Line.

 

[Anderson]

The FEC project is using a different station from Amtrak's existing services in Miami and Orlando. Lord only knows what an Amtrak FEC line train will use in the southern stations, but for those who were there back in the day? Remember cross-town transfers? They're baaack!

I think that already happened when the Downeaster was brought back. I could also point out transfers in Stockton, CA between the two stations there.

I doubt there will be many transfers in Miami.

2000 foot walking transfer down Banyan St. in West Palm Beach? Yes. (The proposed FEC station is at roughly the same cross street and the tracks are parallel and 2000 feet apart.)

Transfers in Orlando between Amtrak and the FEC's planned airport station? Yes. And boy is that inconvenient!

Hopefully the plan to send Amtrak down the FEC from Jacksonville will succeed and render the Orlando transfers unnecessary. (Unless you're going from Tampa to points on the FEC, I guess.) Really the FEC passenger trains should go beyond the airport onto the SunRail tracks, but that hasn't been proposed.

But transfers in Miami? Why would you? There's no conceivable trip for which it's useful.

By the way, how far is Miami-Airport from the FEC station?

Seven stops by Metrorail on the Orange Line.

Well, you're right from an Amtrak perspective in Miami. In Orlando, though, yes. Ditto Jacksonville, should that come to fruition.

Edit: Actually, as a railfan I can think of some cases where I might do that trip, but that's as a railfan, not a traveler.

 

[NE933]

Amtrak's claim is that they told FDOT in advance about the platform length issues and FDOT did nothing. (Maybe this is why Amtrak was not interested in moving back in 09-10.) Amtrak also said that they will happily block the road crossing while platformed, as they do at other stations. ;-) Apparently the road involved is not busy at all and there is talk of closing it completely.

Are you sure? It well seems that it is only one of two that go to the facility; not good to cut your redundancy in half. But at the same time I must reveal that I've never been to the airport and know very little from a participant's or a user's point of view. You might be correct, especiallly if NY to Florida trains RECOVER the lost ridership in the 90's when consists shrunk. These trains lost more blood than a teenager in a Friday the 13th movie.

The legendary 18 car behemoths have all but disappeared, and yes we know it was seasonal, but today's anemic ten car runs always run with robust loads. Many a time when reserving a sleeper room some May and June trains had no sleepers, and this was in January!!!

FDot and Amtrak and the airport must bend over backwards to allow the business to recover and allow a willing market plunk down their money and get the train they need.

 

[afigg]

Transfers in Orlando between Amtrak and the FEC's planned airport station? Yes. And boy is that inconvenient!

Hopefully the plan to send Amtrak down the FEC from Jacksonville will succeed and render the Orlando transfers unnecessary. (Unless you're going from Tampa to points on the FEC, I guess.) Really the FEC passenger trains should go beyond the airport onto the SunRail tracks, but that hasn't been proposed.

But transfers in Miami? Why would you? There's no conceivable trip for which it's useful.

By the way, how far is Miami-Airport from the FEC station?

Seven stops by Metrorail on the Orange Line.

Well, there is the proposal to build a 50 mph Maglev to connect Orlando convention center, IIRC, to the Orlando airport complex. But that wouldn't get one from the Orlando SunRail/Amtrak station I guess. And a proposal that I give only a tiny chance of resulting in a working Maglev transit system.

Checking the Miami Metrorail schedule, it looks to be 15 minutes from the Miami Airport station to the Government Center stop which is near the southern end of the proposed All Aboard Florida Miami station. Not that far apart. But not much of a reason to make the transfer. If Amtrak runs down the FEC to Miami from Jacksonville, there is much to be settled about how it might interact with the AAF service, but the answer may be not at all. Two parallel train services with no shared stations except perhaps north of Cocoa Beach, if I am following it correctly.

Meanwhile, the situation with the Miami Central Station will have to be resolved,